Watchman Nee's Understanding of the Rapture

[enoob57]

2 hours ago, Keras said:

But the holy people of God are: Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, +    Who are they?  Don't say they are recently saved people, as Revelation 16:11 says people won't repent. 

As for the Jewish people, they are reduced to a remnant, a few faithful Christians, who are the holy people of God. Proved by Revelation 12:6-17, where they are divided into 2 groups, as we are told in Daniel 11<32

Any removal away from the trials and testing we all must face, is false teaching.  You have ears; so hear! Whoever is to be made prisoner, to prison they must go. Whoever is to be killed, by the sword they must be slain.  This calls for the endurance and faithfulness of God's people. Revelation 13:0-10

The tribulation is not purposed as trial or testing but God pouring out His wrath upon the earth like no other time ever since the begin...

[Keras]

9 hours ago, enoob57 said:

The tribulation is not purposed as trial or testing but God pouring out His wrath upon the earth like no other time ever since the begin...

Yes, the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls is punishment on the ungodly, but it is quite clear that we Christians are still on earth then and the Anti-Christ does conquer us. Zechariah 14:1-2. Revelation 13:7

As we see in Revelation 12: 6-17, the faithful Christians, who did not violate the Covenant; Daniel 11:32, will be taken to a place of safety on earth, but the other Christians must remain and face the GT. Rev 12:17

[Daniel 11:36]

As we see in Revelation 12: 6-17, the faithful Christians, who did not violate the Covenant; Daniel 11:32, will be taken to a place of safety on earth

 

Daniel 11:32 is about Israel during the days of the reign Antiochus IV

And Revelation 12:6-17 is about believing Israel during the coming tribulation period

Your view on these two scriptures alone is bogus 

 

[enoob57]

7 hours ago, Keras said:

Yes, the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls is punishment on the ungodly, but it is quite clear that we Christians are still on earth then and the Anti-Christ does conquer us. Zechariah 14:1-2. Revelation 13:7

As we see in Revelation 12: 6-17, the faithful Christians, who did not violate the Covenant; Daniel 11:32, will be taken to a place of safety on earth, but the other Christians must remain and face the GT. Rev 12:17

we will agree to disagree to the eschatology at hand ....

[Retrobyter]

On 5/23/2015 at 4:16 PM, missmuffet said:

"Our summary conclusion to all this is that the third school of interpretation seems to be the correct one—that is to say, that one group of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation while another group of believers will go through the Tribulation and be raptured afterwards".

That is all in what you define "Christian" and when these people genuinely come to Christ.Some true born again Christians will go in the rapture before the tribulation but then many will come to Christ during the tribulation.The Martyred Saints.They will go into the Millennium Kingdom.

That is how I read Watchman Nee's article.

Shalom, missmuffet.

Sorry, but that's rather crazy. What constitutes the difference between these "two groups of Christians?" (Besides where they end up, I mean.) Why do only SOME of them end up in the Millennium?

Besides, we're already IN the "tribulation!" There's NO SUCH THING as a "7-year period" marked by "tribulation!" The two 3.5-year periods are the offer of the Kingdom to Israel. The first 3.5-year period was when Yeshua` was here on earth the first time in the First Century, and the second 3.5-year period will be after Yeshua` returns and again offers the Kingdom - the SAME KINGDOM over which David and Shlomoh (Solomon) ruled - to Israel.

The proof is simple enough; one just has to be willing to consider that proof honestly.

Matthew 24:1-31 (KJV)

1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ (the Messiah); and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (Greek: paradoosousin humas eis thlipsin = "they-shall-deliver you into pressure/tribulation"), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation (Greek: thlipsis megalee = "terrible pressure/tribulation"), such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved (rescued): but for the elect's sake (for the sake of the chosen ones) those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo (look!), here is Christ (the Messiah)!," or "there (He is)!"; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs (fake Messiahs), and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect (chosen ones). 25 Behold, I have told you before (ahead of time).

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation (Greek: thlipsis = "pressure/tribulation") of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This Thlipsis started in the first century as Yeshua` is talking DIRECTLY to His disciples! Furthermore, many of these things they are instructed to do to avoid this thlipsis were things that made sense in the First Century, but not today. 

This is all the more reason for believing that NO ONE "goes to heaven", not even in a "rapture!" The "rapture" is actually a mass-transit system to get us all to the Land of Israel quickly so the Messiah can rescue His people, Israel. And, I call them "His people" because they are His PHYSICAL FAMILY, His MISHPACHAH! Oh, we'll go up into the air alright, but then we'll take a "left turn, Clyde," and move HORIZONTALLY to Israel.

[Retrobyter]

On 2/18/2018 at 7:49 PM, enoob57 said:

Desperation to remain correct is seen... it further increases your error in doing so! The life that continues is s/Spirit >not flesh< even my children I teach know this... 

Shalom, enoob57.

Because you TEACH them this nonsense! The "spirit" is technically just the "breath." In the Greek, it also referred to a person's attitude and his teaching.

Quote

Here God speaks to Adam who is now dead from sin... note the deadness for the Breath of God has left him! 

Gen 3:19

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
KJV

 

Not yet, he isn't! (At the time when Gen. 3:19 was said, that is.) When Adam died - TRULY died, he DID give up the breath and returned to the ground from which he was taken. That's not a "spiritual death"; that's just common, ordinary, physical DEATH!

 

 

Here Jesus reintroduces The Life He offers through Spirit...

John 6:63

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
KJV

 

Keep things in context, please. 

John 6:1-65 (KJV)

1 After these things Jesus went over the sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias. 2 And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased. 3 And Jesus went up into a mountain, and there he sat with his disciples. 4 And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh. 5 When Jesus then lifted up his eyes, and saw a great company come unto him, he saith unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat? 6 And this he said to prove him: for he himself knew what he would do. 7 Philip answered him, Two hundred pennyworth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may take a little. 8 One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, saith unto him, 9 There is a lad here, which hath five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many? 10 And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand. 11 And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would. 12 When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost. 13 Therefore they gathered them together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten. 14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.

15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

16 And when even was now come, his disciples went down unto the sea, 17 And entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus was not come to them. 18 And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew. 19 So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid. 20 But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid. 21 Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went.

22 The day following, when the people which stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was none other boat there, save that one whereinto his disciples were entered, and that Jesus went not with his disciples into the boat, but that his disciples were gone away alone; 23 (Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they did eat bread, after that the Lord had given thanks:) 24 When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus. 25 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?

26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. 27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. 30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? 31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. 32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. 34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 48 I am that bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? 61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Yeshua` is talking about His TEACHING!

Edited February 22, 2018 by Retrobyter

[wingnut-]

On 2/19/2018 at 6:21 AM, enoob57 said:

The tribulation is not purposed as trial or testing

 

This really is the crux of the matter, so many don't seem to understand what the tribulation is.  The word tribulation in Greek is as follows.

 

2347 thlípsis – properly, pressure (what constricts, rubs together in a narrow place that "hems in"); tribulation, focusing on internal pressure that causes one to feel confined (restricted, "without options").

2347/thlipsis ("compression, tribulation") brings the challenge of also coping with the internal pressure caused by the tribulation, especially feeling there is "no way of escape" because "hemmed in."

Dealing with 2347/thlípsis ("compression, tribulation") is principally an "inside-out" matter. All pressure is ultimately internal and only truly dealt with by the Lord's inworking of faith. Accordingly 2347 (thlípsis) and 4102/pístis ("faith, God's inworked persuasion") are very closely connected.

 

Are you sure you want to go with God being the cause of this?  Because if that is the case, then toss free will right out the window!  Does God pressure us into belief?

[enoob57]

5 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Are you sure you want to go with God being the cause of this?  Because if that is the case, then toss free will right out the window!  Does God pressure us into belief?

Not sure I follow you here wing?

[enoob57]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Yeshua` is talking about His TEACHING!

and in the teaching He is saying the flesh profits nothing... so to reason from it as importance toward eternal matters is error.

[Mystic_Pizza]

I have to admit I didn't even make it through the first post fully, lol- but that's ok- I'm only posting an opinion-

The whole pre-trib/mid-trib/post-trib business is such a bone of contention among people- but, in all honesty....what does it really matter if it's pre/mid/or post? The main thing- the most important thing, is that we are ready whenever He does come back for us- be it pre/mid/post- the most disturbing thing I have found about the whole situation is that if....IF....the Lord chooses to wait until post, or even mid? Those who are of the pre notion are not going to expect it at all, and may find themselves at a complete loss as to what they should do- thinking they would be in Heaven, and away from all of the nastiness that would be coming on the earth during that time, and with a mindset that is completely unprepared to deal with it. 

My own personal stance on it is mid- but I was raised Assemblies of God, and pre was the definite order of things, lol- however...I could be wrong, wrong, wrong- it may be pre, it may be mid, it may very well be post- there are just loads of 'reasons' for each and every one of them, there really are. But to me, the most important thing of all is to be ready...and prepared...for whatever eventuality may occur, because it does say in the bible, "For you know not the day or the hour when the Son of Man cometh...".