Watchman Nee's Understanding of the Rapture

[Retrobyter]

14 hours ago, enoob57 said:

and in the teaching He is saying the flesh profits nothing... so to reason from it as importance toward eternal matters is error.

Shalom, enoob57.

That's so full of nonsense that it's ridiculous. You've COMPLETELY missed His point! That's not some vague generality, as you're trying to paint it to be.

He's talking about His own RESURRECTION! Do you even understand what "quickeneth" means?

On 2/21/2018 at 11:40 PM, Retrobyter said:

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? 61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

It's the New Living Translation that adds the word "eternal." That's NOT what this verse is talking about! And, technically, it would have been best to add a capital "S" to "spirit!" It is GOD who would bring Yeshua` back to life, and the flesh of Yeshua` would have next to nothing to do with God's act of Creation in the form of Yeshua`s Resurrection!

Here's the Greek:

Kata Iooanneen 6:63 (UBS Greek New Testament)

63 to pneuma estin to zoo-opoioun, hee sarx ouk oofelei ouden; ta rheemata ha egoo lelaleeka humin pneuma estin kai zooee estin.

63 to = 63 the
pneuma = Spirit
estin = is
to = the
zoo-opoioun, = life-giver,
hee = the
sarx = flesh
ouk = not
oofelei = does-help/benefit/good
ouden; = no-one/none/nothing
ta = the
rheemata = words
ha = that
egoo = I
lelaleeka = speak
humin = to-you
pneuma = Spirit
estin = is
kai = and/also
zooee = life
estin. = is.

Understand now? It's not that the flesh ALWAYS "profiteth nothing!" He's saying that FOR HIS RESURRECTION, the answer is NOT in the flesh of Himself! The resurrection power is from the Spirit of GOD! The Wind/Breath of GOD!

Edited February 23, 2018 by Retrobyter
to correct my grammar

[enoob57]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Understand now? It's not that the flesh ALWAYS "profiteth nothing!" He's saying that FOR HIS RESURRECTION, the answer is NOT in the flesh of Himself! The resurrection power is from the Spirit of GOD! The Wind/Breath of GOD!

Your summary is exactly what I said ... your misinterpreting is the issue!

[Retrobyter]

20 hours ago, enoob57 said:

Your summary is exactly what I said ... your misinterpreting is the issue!

Shabbat shalom, enoob57.

Okay, I still think there is something fundamentally different in our definitions or who-knows-what. Humor me, please. How is what I said "exactly what you said?"

 

[enoob57]

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, enoob57.

Okay, I still think there is something fundamentally different in our definitions or who-knows-what. Humor me, please. How is what I said "exactly what you said?"

 

 Please understand this is in Love that I say - you are to full of yourself to dialogue with  

[Retrobyter]

16 hours ago, enoob57 said:

 Please understand this is in Love that I say - you are to full of yourself to dialogue with  

Shalom, enoob57.

I waited for THAT?! Some "Love!" And, the word is "too," by the way. "Too full of yourself."

In other words, then, you CAN'T say how what I said is "exactly what you said." Thanks. 

[DJ7]

Except that's not written by watchman nee. 

The date 1978 is well after his death and it's definitely not his writing. Not sure where you got it. Maybe more than likely it's witness Lee's writing which is very wrong. He actually started a cult type religion.

 

[simplejeff]

(From "The King and the Kingdom", p. 271-289, CFP, Co. 1978)

CFP, Christian Fellowship Publishers , also sometimes called 'the white covers' re Nee's books, is one of the authentic publishers of books in Nee's name.   The changes in the same title and other titles made later by living stream should be avoided as they were changed on purpose to change the message.

Nee only wrote a few books himself - the others in his name are from meticulous notes taken by his students.

His life and testimony and teachings of Jesus by God's Grace are about the best known thoroughly and accurately Scriptural.

So accurate,  that the enemy went to great lengths to imitate him, to create a counterfeit 'cult' to try to discredit the true life and gospel of Jesus.

[DJ7]

Just reading that book now. I can see by the style of writing that it's very likely not written by watchman nee and I know that witness lee did actually write a lot and did put watchman nee's on his own writings. Also he says in the chapter 7 section, page 87 he says the holy spirit is there to rule over man and then he says the holy spirit obeys man which is obviously wrong as the holy spirit doesn't obey us. Nowhere does the bible say the holy spirit "rules" over us. Because in Nees other books he says different to that.

 

[simplejeff]

"Page 110, volume 3, The Spiritual Man (CFP white cover): <[not living stream, which is counterfeit]>

"He never forces anyone to do anything.

The divine Spirit does not directly control man’s body either. If man desires to speak he has to engage his own mouth—to walk, his own feet—to work, his own hands. The Spirit of God never interferes with man’s freedom of will. Aside from working in man’s spirit (which is God’s new creation), He does not use any part of man’s body apart from the consent of the latter’s own volition; nay, even if man is willing, He does not exercise any of his bodily parts for him. Man should be his own master. He must exercise his own body. This is God’s law which He will not violate.

We often say that “the Holy Spirit rules over man.” By this we mean He works in us to make us obedient to God. But if we should mean that He directly controls our total being we are in complete error. We can distinguish right here between the work of the Holy Spirit and that of evil spirits. The Holy Spirit indwells us to witness that we belong to God whereas evil spirits manipulate people to reduce them to robots. God’s Spirit asks for our cooperation; evil spirits seek direct control."

[iamlamad]

On 5/23/2015 at 4:23 PM, Ezra said:

I'm surprised that you have not heard of Watchman Nee.  He has written many books and much of his teaching is quite scriptural, but the one about the Rapture does NOT make a lot of sense.

 

His reasons for belief in a partial Rapture before the Great Tribulation and another Rapture after the Great Tribulation are not very convincing.  Many things which he says can be easily refuted, so Watchman Nee's theory (with all due respect) is "full of holes".   

 

For example he says that nowhere does it say that the Holy Spirit will be removed before the Great Tribulation.  While literally that may be so, we need to pull all the Scriptures together.  2 Thess 2:6,7 clearly states that the Restrainer of Satan will be "taken out of the way" so that the Antichrist (the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition, that Wicked) can take control of this earth and actually sit in the Temple at Jerusalem calling himself "God". 

 

There is only one Restrainer powerful enough to restrain Satan's malice and activity on earth -- God the Holy Spirit [those who claim that the Restrainer is Michael the Archangel forget that even Michael dared not bring railing accusation against the Devil and said "the LORD rebuke thee" (Jude 9)]. 

 

Once the Holy Spirit is taken "out of the way" (which can only mean returns to Heaven) God will allow Satan (through the Beast) to take full control of this earth for 3 1/2 years (Rev 13:5-8).  And the reason why the Great Tribulation comes upon the earth is because of the Abomination of Desolation, as Christ prophesied (Mt 24:15-22). 

 

So when we connect all this, the absence of the Holy Spirit from this earth is connected through the Antichrist to the Great Tribulation (God's wrath against the ungodly).   And if indeed the Church goes through the Great Tribulation, then THE ENTIRE CHURCH WOULD BE BEHEADED (Rev 20:4).  Regardless of whether a segment of the Church is raptured before the Tribulation, this cannot possibly be "the Blessed Hope" spoken of by Paul. The whole point of 1 Thess 4 & 5 is that the Church is "not appointed to wrath, but to obtain salvation".

 

And to claim that people cannot get saved during the Great Tribulation if the Holy Spirit is absent does not conform to Scripture either.  There were many OT saints being saved for thousands of years until Pentecost, and the Holy Spirit had not been poured out as yet (as seen at Pentecost).  People were also being saved during the earthly ministry of Christ.  The same will be true during the Great Tribulation.  There will be Tribulation Saints and they will be beheaded for their testimony, but the Tribulation Saints are not the entire Church.  Even Rev 7:9-14 can be interpreted differently without doing violence to Scripture.

It is certainly the Holy Spirit that is doing the restraining, but Jesus gave His authority to the church. In other words, the Holy Spirit must work through the church. When the church is "taken out of the way" suddenly the Holy Spirit has no believers to work through. So the man of sin can then be revealed.  Remember what Paul said, that Satan is "the god of this world." He usurped Adam's authority so all the kingdoms of the world belong (for now) to him. But God gave the church authority over Satan.