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Things the Bible does not say about the End Times

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Things the Bible DOES NOT SAY about the End Times
 
Notice, that this list, does not establish any end times 
theory, it tries to prove nothing. It does not even 
attack a theory, or attempt to refute one. 
 
What it does attempt to do, is to get people to ask 
themselves, why they believe certain things, that the 
Bible never says.
 
So basically, in between the lines I am asking: 
 
If we believe certain things that are not stated in the scripture, and claim that we believe them because that is what scripture teaches, aren't we in principle adding to the words of scripture?
 
Furthermore, if we teach these things as though they are true, does that make us false teachers?
 
So, what things do I claim the Bible does not teach? 
Following is a short list:
 
1. It does not say there will be a Rapture of the Church, 
which occurs before the Great Tribulation.
 
2. It does not refer to a 7 year period as the Great Tribulation.
 
3. It does not say that the Holy Spirit is removed from the 
Earth at any time during the Great Tribulation.
 
4. It does not refer to the Great Tribulation, as the wrath 
of God.
 
5. It does not say that Jesus will return secretly or 
invisibly to take His Church.
 
6. It does not say that no man will ever know the time (the
day or hour) of His coming.
7. It does not say that Jesus can return at any moment.
 
8. It does not say that Jesus will return like a thief in 
the night for His church.
 
9. It does not say that believers will not be in the great 
tribulation, or skip suffering and persecution, or even 
death.
 
Now, am I wrong about anything on that list. If so, can you provide scripture citations that would make anything in the list a misstatement?
 
Thanks for your help!
 
P.S. Please try to stick to the actual topic, and provide us with the information which would show me to be in error, when I claim the bible does not express the ideas in the list. Also not, that in the thread that follows, other ideas that could be added to the list are these:
 
10. The Bible does not explicitly say the the Rapture is the Blessed Hope.
 
11. Jesus is not said to return as a thief in the night, in any context that necessitates a pre-tribulation return.
 
12. It is often said: The Rapture is Jesus coming for His church, the Second Coming is Jesus coming with His church. I think those definitions are workable, but the Bible does not say there is a multi-year interval between those events.
 
13. The Bible does not say, that there are 144,000 evangelists or witnesses, during the tribulation.
 
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Guest shiloh357

Adding the Word of God refers to adding additional revelation to the Scriptures than what God has put there.    Believing that the Bible teaches a pre-tribulation rapture based on the Scriptures that are already in the Bible would not be adding to the Scripture. 

 

Taking an extra-biblical source and giving it the same authority of Scripture and using it tandem with Scripture or giving it more authority than Scripture would be adding to the Scripture.

 

I don't know of anyone who says believers won't go through the Tribulation.   There will be people on the earth who become believers during the tribulation.

 

I don't know of anyone who says the Great Tribulation will be 7 years long.   The Tribulation is divided up between two 42 month periods, the latter part being the, "Great Tribulation."   Even those who believe we will not go through the full 7 years of tribulation don't believe that the church will escape "pre-tribulation"  persecution and suffering. 

 

The latter part of the 7 year period does feature God's wrath on the anti-Christ's Babylonian kingdom.   Sometimes the Bible doesn't use the precise terms we use, but that doesn't mean the concepts as we express them are not there.

 

The Bible also doesn't specifically and explicitly use the terms,  Grand Fathers, Rapture, The Trinity or pre-marital sex, but that doesn't mean that those concepts are not mentioned or represented somewhere in the biblical text.

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Adding the Word of God refers to adding additional revelation to the Scriptures than what God has put there.    Believing that the Bible teaches a pre-tribulation rapture based on the Scriptures that are already in the Bible would not be adding to the Scripture. 

 

I did not say that believing in a pre-tribulation rapture, was adding to the word of God. What I asked was "isn't saying we believe this BECAUSE that is what the bible teaches, IN PRINCIPLE, adding to the word of God?".

 

I think if I told you that I believe that that Adam was a God because the Bible says so, that I would be adding to scripture, because, in fact, the bible does not say that.

 

I usually choose my words carefully, I would appreciate it, if readers would read them carefully, so as not to turn them into something I did not say.

 

 

 

Taking an extra-biblical source and giving it the same authority of Scripture and using it tandem with Scripture or giving it more authority than Scripture would be adding to the Scripture.

 

Interesting! So if a person (who IS an extra-biblical source) uses his/her own thoughts not contained in scripture doesn't count the same was as usuing other extra-biblical sources?

 

 

 

I don't know of anyone who says believers won't go through the Tribulation.   There will be people on the earth who become believers during the tribulation.

 

That is amazing, I know plenty of people who say that. I have read it in books, heard it on the radio, heard it from the pulpits, read it here on the forums, and am convinced there are millions. Now to be sure, some of those who say that, if you mention that Revelation shows believers in the tribulation, will then say "well yes, but those are the tribulation saints", so a lot of them actually know that. They also often point out (before that part of the conversation, that God would never let is people suffer, which is a bit ridiculous, since that has been His ways since the beginning of time through the present day. I am shocked that you have never run into this idea that believers won't go through the tribulation.

 

 

 

I don't know of anyone who says the Great Tribulation will be 7 years long.   The Tribulation is divided up between two 42 month periods, the latter part being the, "Great Tribulation."   Even those who believe we will not go through the full 7 years of tribulation don't believe that the church will escape "pre-tribulation"  persecution and suffering.

 

​My response to that is similar to the above. Sure, you are demonstrating that you understand some of the errors by correcting the subtle misconceptions, but the fact that "you do not know anyone" almost indicates an isolation of some kind, or not listening to what others say. I am having a difficult time believing your experience is that limited in terms of being aware of what many others believers think.

 

 

 

The latter part of the 7 year period does feature God's wrath on the anti-Christ's Babylonian kingdom.   Sometimes the Bible doesn't use the precise terms we use, but that doesn't mean the concepts as we express them are not there

 

Since you are not really debating me, but just commenting and expressing what you believe, I won't call that a straw man argument. But you are addressing a point I never made! I never said that God's wrath is absent from the Great Tribulation, I said that the Great Tribulation, is not said by the Bible to be the wrath of God. Why is it so difficult for people to actually address actual topics of the OPs in this forum? It is frustrating to spend time, responding to responses that are off topic.

 

 

 

The Bible also doesn't specifically and explicitly us the terms,  Grand Fathers, Rapture, or pre-marital sex, but that doesn't mean that those concepts are not mentioned or represented somewhere in the biblical text.

 

As the man featured in the signature of your posts was fond of saying "There you go again!" I never said the term Rapture is used in the Bible. I know the concept is there, and people are familiar with that concept, so I felt no need to go into that. I am not sure why you do, since it also addreses nothing in the OP. We agree (and you know) that the term Rapture, originates from Rapio, in the Latin Vulgate, and refers to the catching up of the church to be with the Lord in 1 Thess 4 (as I recall) some variation of the term harpazo in the Greek.

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Guest shiloh357

No adding to the Scriptures IS adding additional revelation.   Believing something that the Bible doesn't explicitly state yet believing that it is taught in the Scriptures isn't "adding to Scripture"  in principle or otherwise.

 

A person is not what I meant by "extra-biblical source"   and I think you know that.  What I was talking about someone taking an extra-biblical document and giving it the same authority as Scripture.   I don't think that anywhere close to someone who simply has their own thoughts on the matter and express them, unless they see their own thoughts and opinions as being on part with Scripture.

 

I think I made the distinction between tribulation believers, those who get saved during the tribulation and the church whom many believe will not through the tribulation.  Your statement was about believers not going through the tribulation.   You didn't specify the church vs. those who get saved during the tribulation.   I simply stated that I had not heard of the idea that NO believers will go through the tribulation.

 

Omega,   I have been around long enough to have read all of the major prophecy teachers from days gone by and NONE of them have ever stated that the Great Tribulation is 7 years long.    Now maybe you might have heard some lay person in your church call the 7 years tribulation the "Great Tribulation,"   I dunno.    But I have never heard anyone who teaches prophecy relate it that way.   That's what I meant.   I am hardly an isolationist.

 

I never claimed anyone said that God's wrath is absent from the great tribulation.   The only point I was making is that we can call it that because it is there in function, if not explicitly referred to that way.

 

Again, the only point I was making is that while you can pepper us with a list of things that the Bible doesn't explicitly say, it doesn't mean the concepts are not there.   It really is that simple.  

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Omegaman,  I've been here for a really long time now, and it is my view that most people really don't know how to read.....   oh they know what the word spells, but putting those words into the thoughts that you are expressing just doesn't happen way too much of the time.    I would think it might be because minds are made up about most things and they are not interested in understanding what you or I really have to say.

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Things the Bible DOES NOT SAY about the End Times

 

Notice, that this list, does not establish any end times 

theory, it tries to prove nothing. It does not even 

attack a theory, or attempt to refute one. 

 

What it does attempt to do, is to get people to ask 

themselves, why they believe certain things, that the 

Bible never says.

 

So basically, in between the lines I am asking: 

 

If we believe certain things that are not stated in the 

scripture, and claim that we believe them because that is what scripture teaches, aren't we in principle adding to the words of scripture?

 

Furthermore, if we teach these things as though they are true, does that make us false teachers?

 

So, what things do I claim the Bible does not teach? 

Following is a short list:

 

It does not say there will be a Rapture of the Church, 

which occurs before the Great Tribulation.

 

It does not refer the the Great Tribulation as being 7 

years in length.

 

It does not say that the Holy Spirit is removed from the 

Earth at any time during the Great Tribulation.

 

It does not refer to the Great Tribulation, as the wrath 

of God.

 

It does not say that Jesus will return secretly or 

invisibly to take His Church.

 

It does not say that no man will ever know the time (the

day or hour) of His coming.

 

It does not say that Jesus can return at any moment.

 

It does not say that Jesus will return like a thief in 

the night for His church.

 

It does not say that believers will not be in the great 

tribulation, or skip suffering and persecution, or even 

death.

 

Now, am I wrong about anything on that list. If so, can you provide scripture citations that would make anything in the list a misstatement?

 

Thanks for your help!

 

P.S. Please try to stick to the actual topic, and provide us with the information which would show me to be in error, when I claim the bible does not express the ideas in the list.

Hmmmmm, a list of assumptions and misconceptions, things that most pre-tribbers claim. You should have a lot of fun with this thread.

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Shiloh,

 

I know you just love to argue and get your point in there Shiloh, but I cannot help but notice, that again you just basically ignored the topic and want to derail it into what you want it to be. I am not going for it this time. 

 

However, I will address one little part of your post, just to illustrate what you continue to do, address things that were never stated. You said essentially, that all of the major prophecy teachers never refer to the Great Tribulation as 7 years long. Did I say anything about major prophecy teachers? No, I did not. You said:

 

"I don't know of anyone who says the Great Tribulation will be 7 years long."

 

So, now it goes from not knowing anyone, to none of the major teachers? Nice try, I am not a debate expert, nor knowledgeable in logical fallacies etc., but I recognize desperation!

 

Now, my point on that 7 year tribulation, which you chose to avoid by subtly changing the topic, was that there are people who teach and believe this, whether you ever heard of them or not, is irrelevant. Had you bothered, a quick Google search would have revealed a few.

 

Please stop changing the topic. either deal with it, or just ignore it and let those who want to reply and discuss what I posted, do so. If you are so desperate to say the things you want to say, start a topic yourself and say them.

 

Thanks for being interested and enthusiastic anyway.

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On 5/27/2015 at 10:10 AM, rollinTHUNDER said:

 

Hmmmmm, a list of assumptions and misconceptions, things that most pre-tribbers claim. You should have a lot of fun with this thread.

 

 

Actually rollingTHUNDER, I kind of doubt it. I am hoping to let people rethink why they believe what they believe. If they can stick to the actual topic, they should discover that much of what they think, is NOT based on scripture, but on opinions formed from inferences and faulty conclusions, which are not well thought out. As you observed, these are common pre-trib assumptions. So, I expect two things from that camp. Some will remain silent I would), while others will try and defend their beliefs will diversions and assertions, while just ignoring the actual topic.

 

For them, there is an entire thread about defending the pre-trib position. They should use that to express themselves. All I am asking for in verses that prove my assertions about what the bible does NOT say, to be wrong. I am not even asking that anyone admit that I am right! If the bible does say, what some people claim it does, it should not be difficult to supply a verse.

 

I made 9 assertions, Surely one of them can be proven wrong you would think, if they are incorrect. What a great opportunity this is, for someone who knows where these ideas come from if they are actually scriptural. (note: just rereading this thread on Feb 19, 2019 - the list is 13 items now - and is kept updated elsewhere)

 

Thanks for your comment, I know you and I do not agree on how things play out, so I appreciate it all the more.

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Omegaman,  I've been here for a really long time now, and it is my view that most people really don't know how to read.....   oh they know what the word spells, but putting those words into the thoughts that you are expressing just doesn't happen way too much of the time.    I would think it might be because minds are made up about most things and they are not interested in understanding what you or I really have to say.

 

Yes other one, I was staying away from the forums for a while, because I was frustrated with how argumentative some are based on preconceptions. I love a good debate, because I find it enjoyable to learn from others by exchanging ideas. Unfortunately, some don't really engage in debate, the just pridefully fight about things they are passionate about. I do not want to change minds about anything in this post, I merely want people to reassess what they believe, and determine if they think what they do, because the Bible says it, or do they think it because of what they heard somewhere or because if feels good.

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Guest shiloh357

Wow, Omega...  I really wasn't attacking you or trying to derail your thread.  You simply  said some things about bible prophecy that I had not heard anyone say.  Some of those are rather new to me.   Maybe its because I had a small book of Bible prophecy teachers that I draw from that I had just not been exposed to that stuff.   Bible prophecy isn't where I spend a whole lot of time in study.  I don't think I was being all that contentious.

 

I didn't realize it was such a touchy issue for you or that you would cop such an ugly attitude.  I will leave you to it, dictator. 

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      erchomai
      1 Cor 15:23
      But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
       
      παρουσία Noun -
      Dative Feminine Singular
      1 Cor 16:17
      I rejoice over the coming of Stephanas and Fortunatus and Achaicus, because they have supplied what was lacking on your part.
       
      παρουσία Noun -
      Dative Feminine Singular
      2 Cor 7:6
      But God, who comforts the depressed, comforted us by the coming of Titus;
       
      παρουσία Noun -
      Dative Feminine Singular
      2 Cor 7:7
      and not only by his coming, but also by the comfort with which he was comforted in you, as he reported to us your longing, your mourning, your zeal for me; so that I rejoiced even more.
       
      παρουσία Noun -
      Dative Feminine Singular
      2 Cor 10:10
      For they say, “His letters are weighty and strong, but his personal presence is unimpressive and his speech contemptible.”
       
      παρουσία Noun -
      Nominative Feminine Singular
      Phil 1:26
      so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again.
       
      παρουσίας Noun - Genitive Feminine Singular
      Phil 2:12
      So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
       
      παρουσία Noun -
      Dative Feminine Singular
      1 Thess 2:19
      For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you, in the presence** of our Lord Jesus at His coming?
       
      παρουσία Noun -
      Dative Feminine Singular
      1 Thess 3:13
      so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.
       
      παρουσία Noun -
      Dative Feminine Singular
      1 Thess 4:15
      For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
       
      παρουσία Noun -
      Accusative Feminine Singular
      1 Thess 5:23
      Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
       
      παρουσία Noun -
      Dative Feminine Singular
      2 Thess 2:1
      Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
       
      παρουσία Noun -
      Genitive Feminine Singular
      2 Thess 2:8
      Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
       
      παρουσία Noun -
      Genitive Feminine Singular
      2 Thess 2:9
      that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
       
      παρουσία Noun -
      Nominative Feminine Singular
      Jas 5:7
      Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains.
      παρουσία Noun -
      Genitive Feminine Singular
       
      *here the word is not parousia, it is erchomai, included to demonstrate that not all instances of the word coming in English, stems from the Greek word parousia
      **here the word is not parousia, it is emprosthen, usually translated “before”, as in bow down before him
      Parousia παρουσία Strong.docx
    • By Jonathan BeWell
      The secular world keeps yelling, “Don’t judge me.” Well, I maintain that we must discern with the Holy Spirit and warn people of their fate in hell if they do not repent. Christ did.

      30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

      Matthew 5:30 King James Version (KJV)

      39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

      40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

      41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

      John 9:39-41 (KJV)

      When Jesus returns, I believe he will execute righteous anger on the world.

      48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

      49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

      50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

      51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

      Matthew 24:48-51 (KJV)

      Christ comes for more reasons than to love and save. Believe, repent and reap good consequences in the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour of the world.

    • By SurrenderedWife
      Blessings brothers and sister,
      I was wondering what insight you might have about the usefulness of having children in these last last days. I know we don't know "the day and the hour" but we can't ignore the times. I really want children, and so does my unbelieving spouse but 2 miscarriages later and with the end approaching I'm wondering if this is the best decision for serving the Lord. I love to study and teach and have already envisioned a wonderful and comprehensive homeschooling curriculum, and will follow guides to make sure they successfully grow through their stages. My husband forbids the kids attending church or being taught Christianity as fact rather than my belief. Still, he's not against Christian friends and conversation per se... Other than this, my husband is a committed provider, supports traditional roles and most of Christian teachings, and is very affectionate to family (including our cats).
      I think will make a very good dad. So far things seem to indicate a green light from God, but I'm still interested in what you all know or think!
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