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Things the Bible does not say about the End Times


Omegaman 3.0

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It does not say that Jesus can return at any moment.

 

Let's just take this statement and prove it is false.  That should be sufficient to prove that all this about the Bible not saying something has no merit, because clearly God expects us to draw inferences from a study of His Word.

 

Can the Lord Jesus Christ return at any moment?  That is the issue. If there is a verse or verses that clearly states this then we have nullified the above assertion.

 

Unqualified (Jn 14:3)

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

 

Unannounced (Mt 24:44)

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

 

Unexpected (Mt 24:13)

Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

 

Now let's see if after this Omegaman acknowledges Scripture, and takes down his *billboard*, since we could apply the same technique to all the other claims.

 

We don't know the day and hour that he is coming, but that doesn't say or mean that we may not know when he is not....

 

has the man of sin been revealed......     I don't think he's coming back until he is.......    so I would tend to agree with Omega.....    you are taking something and playing a reverse game......     yes we do not know the day or hour, but we do know things that have to happen first....

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Shalom, Omegaman.I think what you have written is BRILLIANT! You’re simply playing “God’s Advocate.” (“Devil’s advocate” is what most people know, but this is FAR from haSatan’s thinking.) It’s simple, inductive reasoning, that is just as much a valid way of logically coming to conclusions as is deductive reasoning.

 

The one that seems blatant to me is “It does not say that no man will ever know the time (the day or hour) of His coming."

 

The Scriptures DO say, 

 

Matthew 24:34-39
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
KJV

 

 
I might need to back up a little more, but Yeshua` is talking about the “coming of the Son of man” here. One might argue that in some Greek versions the phrase “nor the Son” is also present, but Mark’s account of the same speech - which is not so disputed - says it:
 
Mark 13:26-34
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. ...
KJV
 
That’s all I’ll add at this time. Absolutely BRILLIANT!

 

 

Thanks Retrobyter for your kind words. One poster accused me of changing one or two words, and says I am underhanded. I wasn't entirely sure what he was talking about.

 

However, your comment about above, may have shed some light on this.

 

I think his point may have been that I take basic idea of a verse, and change a word, and becuase I have changed a word, it is easy for me to say the bible never says it - because what I said the bible never says, it in fact never does say, because I have twisted it into something else, at least that is my guess of his perception.

 

The verse(s) you brought up, relate to my comment:

 

It does not say that no man will ever know the time (the
day or hour) of His coming.
 
So, I will use your reply and mention of this passage, to expand the idea I am proposing, and perhaps the reason I mention it.
 
Let's get the actual verses out in front of us. From Mark 13:
 
 32“But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
 
and from Matt 24:
 
36“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
 
Why I brought this verse up in the first place
 
Occasionally, the topic of eschatology comes up in the chat room. I will make some point about the timing of sequence of events that the Bible does reveal to us. A chatter will then bring out one of the above verse, or more often, a paraphrase of them. The idea implied is, that if I claim the has some detail about the timing, then the fact that no one knows is proof that I do not know either, it is unknowable, in their mind, therefore I can make to claim to my opinion, as to do so, is to contradict the Lord Himself.
 
So, what we need to do, is to examine the verse and see if it really says, what they conclude it means. This is where the idea of looking at what the bible does not say, comes into play.
 
First thing to notice, is the context, Context is more than one thing. Usually we mean the surrounding verses, the subject, but I am not starting there. Another context can be where or when or to whom, something was said. What I notice here, is the when it was said.
 
It was said about 2000 years ago! Why is this important? It is important, because Jesus uses a word that is time connected by it's tense. Jesus said "no one knows". No one knows, is in the present tense. So, literally this means that 2000 years ago, no one knew except the Father. The verse does not say, that no one would ever know. It does not say that there would never be any further revelation on the topic, such as in a yet to be written, New Testament book. The verse said that Jesus Himself did not know, but it did not say that He would never know. If we want to assume that this was a permanent idea that covered the future of knowledge, then we are changing what the verse says, from "no one knows" to "no one will know". Are we allowed to take that kind of liberty? In good conscience, I cannot, some seem to have no problem doing that.
To change the meaning like that, is not only sloppy exegesis, if it were to be done intentionally, it would be outright twisting of the Jesus' words and deceptive.
So, to use that verse in an attempt to refute attempts to discover and unveil what the bible says about eschatological sequences, is improper at best, and abusive at worst. We can develop this a little bit further. Let's suppose for a moment that I am wrong, and that even though the verse says nothing about the future state of knowledge, lets assume for a moment, that this is what it means, even if it does ot say that, what then?
If we choose to take that sort of license with the word of God, lets use it consistently and take that to it's necessary conclusion. An easy way to do this, is to first, change the words of the verse to say what it is, that people want it to say, and then look at the necessary implications of it's new meaning.
 
Warning, so as not to mislead anyone into thinking the bible says this, the following is a paraphrase of some people's interpretation of a verse, not from the word of God itself:
“But of that day and hour no one will ever know, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."
 
So. Jesus gave up some Godly attributes when He became a man. We could provide scripture that says that, but I think we realize that Jesus was not omnipresent, He got tired and hunger etc. I think we would all agree that He was a man and as man, had limitations. But what about now? 
Since Jesus dies and was resurrected, and rose and ascended back to be at the right hand of the Father, does He still have those limitation, or has he reclaimed devine attributes? Is He now omniscient (knowing everything) or is He still ignorant of the future? I suspect He is not limited in knowledge, but, I cannot prove it, so, lets go further in this idea.
There will come a time, when Jesus returns. If not for the rapture, then at the very least at His glorious second coming. Do we suppose then, that since no one will ever know, that when Jesus comes again, that He will at that time, still not know about these things? How about those who are with Him, will they not know? What about those who see him, will they not know?
Surely then "no one will ever know" is not true, and therefore, we should not reinterpret those verse to say what we want them to say. Let's stop distorting the word of God to adapt to our theories. If we want to refute the theories of others, we should at least do it with God's actual word, not our reinvention of it.
Enough said about this one point. What else is a problem?
These verses say no one knows the day or the hour, as we have seen, but what else do they not say? They use units of time, day and hour. Now I don't suppose that is meant to be taken over literally, but even if they just represent small units of time, the verse does not say "no one will know the month, or the year or the century or the epoch". My point here is, that it is not unreasonable to think, that jesus intentionally chose words, that limit the precision of of what time we might know. If He had intended His audience to think in more general terms, He could just have said "No one knows the time" That would have broadened up His statement, but He chose words of greater precision, leaving in open to the idea that we might know approximately, if not exactly, about the time.
 
Edited on June 6th 2015 to include the point of this one paragraph:
When Jesus said no one knows the day or the hour, look at it more closely:
******************************************************
36“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,f but only the Father. 
 
But about that day or hour . . .  what day or hour is He speaking about anyway? Al we need do, is back up to the verses immediately before to see:
 

29Immediately after the distress of those days

“ ‘the sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’b

 

30Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthc will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that ite is near, right at the door. 34Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

***********************************************************
End of June 5th edit
 
Beginning of June 7th edit
************************************************************
Just a thought (I have those once in a while). Some times it is said:
"The church cannot go through the tribulation, because when she sees the anti-christ, all that would need to be done, is count down 3.5 years, and then we would know Christ is about to return, contradicting the no one knows verse"
In my comments above, I have already shown that the 'no one knows' verse, cannot be forced into it saying, what many assume it means, so no further comment should be necessary, 
However it occurred to me that there is another way to disarm even the contention that we could know the time of His coming, with that 3.5 year countdown, I should check this, and will later, but off the top of my head, I do not think the Bible actually says that Jesus must return for His glorious 2nd coming, immediately after the tribulation, is it not possible that there is some delay there also? Matt 24 gives us a sequence, and we know that the celestial phenomena are said to be immediately after the tribulation, but, technically there could be some space between that and His visible return. That would not be the most natural reading, but like I said, just a thought.
*********************************************************
End of June 7th edit
 
What else did he not say? He may have said we so not know when these things will happen, but He did not say we would not know the sequence. In fact, in Matt 24 where we see this verse, Jesus went into great detail talking about the sequence of events to come, When we discuss things like rapture timing, we are not talking about when, not talking about time, we are speaking of sequence, the order that events will unfold in. If Jesus meant to say we  would not know the order of events, why did He spend that whole conversation telling the disciples about the signs that would preceed his coming and the order of events things would occur in,
There are more things, but these things should serve to illustrate the problems with assuming ideas that the bible did not say.
 
Thanks  Retrobyter, for making me see the need to clarify a point. And thank you for participating in the topic.
 
Also, yes, as you pointed out I think, the context of that verse, is not appropriate for use to defend a pre-trib rapture, in as much as the context has to do with the second coming. The only thing there about a rapture, is if it happens after the great tribulation, when Jesus returns:
 
 29“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENEDAND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHTAND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
 
sort of sounds like a rapture to me!
 
Hmm . that brings to mind another thing that the bible does not say:
 
"The Rapture is Jesus coming for His church - the second coming is Jesus coming with His church"
Edited by Omegaman 3.0
to add some points about the day or the hour, between the strings of asterisks
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PS. I do not believe the Body of Christ being `caught away,` when it is complete, mature, is escapism, as you said. I do not really get caught up in pre-mid-post views, however if you would like a soap-box debate on this issue I would be willing to debate with you. Note, I will not use any scriptures that pre-tribs usually do. Is that a fair challenge?

 

Thanks for the invite and the challenge, yes, it is fair. I have read some of your posts in the past Marilyn, and they are interesting. However, I am declining the debate, at least at this time, Others have also suggested engaging me in the Soap Box before, but I have declined there also. Don't ask me why, clearly I have no objection to debate, lol, Someday, I may take someone up on it, but I don't feel I should commit to it at this time.

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It does not say that Jesus can return at any moment.

 

Let's just take this statement and prove it is false.  That should be sufficient to prove that all this about the Bible not saying something has no merit, because clearly God expects us to draw inferences from a study of His Word.

 

Can the Lord Jesus Christ return at any moment?  That is the issue. If there is a verse or verses that clearly states this then we have nullified the above assertion.

 

Unqualified (Jn 14:3)

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

 

Unannounced (Mt 24:44)

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

 

Unexpected (Mt 24:13)

Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

 

Now let's see if after this Omegaman acknowledges Scripture, and takes down his *billboard*, since we could apply the same technique to all the other claims.

 

 

I sure hope he remains strong in his stance since you have not proven his statement incorrect. 

He said that Jesus could not return AT ANY MOMENT.  Those Scriptures prove that He could return AT ANY MOMENT.  If we cannot accept that from Scripture, then we have a serious problem.

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I am not Pre-trib. I don't like this post at all. Maybe my perception about this post and how it's written is wrong, but this post seems like passive-aggressive manipulation at the very least. It's a word play on some people's deeply held belief.   I don't believe this post would be an example of how Christians should express there thoughts and beliefs with each other.  So, even though I am not Pre-trib I will post my responses above in the main text with the hope that my answers to the text above will demonstrate my belief as I try to answer the questions with the intent of showing biblical possibility that is left in this world and the end times, according to scripture.

 

I may or may not respond to you post more completely later firestormx. This thread has become quite time consuming for me, and I have things I should be attending to that this is distracting me from. I just responded to a post from retrobyter. While I was responding to that, three new posts were added to the thread. I will make this one observations though:

 

Some of my items on the list, you responded to with arguments from silence, such as:

 

It doesn't say he can't return at any moment either!

 

Arguments from silence are not evidence of anything. If I said, "the Bible does not say that Jesus is wearing a horse costume right now". One could respond with: "Well, it does not say that He isn't either!"

 

That is a silly example, but I think it should make my point of why arguments from silence are useless.

 

Actually, by the way, the Bible does say He cannot return at any moment. Not in those exact words of course, but you are speaking of the doctrine of imminence. The idea that there is nothing that has to take place before He returns. That is not true, the Bible lists several, either directly, or by extremely strong inference. However, that is a whole other topic for some other time maybe.

 

You also mention my word play. Of course I used word play. People are making pronouncements of eschatological doctrine based on word play, they take things the bible says, and restate them in subtly modified form that sounds familiar, but misstates what the bible actually says. If I list their ideas, I have to use word play, because their ideas are word play. Maybe you are referring to something else. If I can find the time, I will re-examine your reply more carefully, to see exactly what you mean, and then comment more intelligently.

 

Thanks for your reply, you comments and even your criticisms.

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I was thinking about closing the topic altogether. Certain comments about how ugly things are, and about underhandedness etc, made me think that that this was not a great idea.

 

Let me get my cards on the table before continueing.

 

First off, yes, this topic was engineered in a certain way. I was being truthful, when I said:

 

Notice, that this list, does not establish any end times 
theory, it tries to prove nothing. It does not even 
attack a theory, or attempt to refute one. 
 
What it does attempt to do, is to get people to ask 
themselves, why they believe certain things, that the 
Bible never says.
 
Did I know or expect, that that this would likely stimulate people of a specific viewpoint to respond? Of course I did, as I was stating things that the Bible does not say, that certain people believe to be true. What I am seeing, is that most of them have not made an attempt to show that the Bible actually does say these things. Instead, they often try to show us that they have reasons for their beliefs. I never doubted that they have reasons, there is a whole thread on the defense of pre-trib rapture.
 
However, by not engaging this thread as I set it up to be engaged, they basically are admitting unintentionally, and some have been honest enough to say so explicitly, that the bible indeed does not say they things some of them hold to be true doctrine. Not only this, but in this process, they have prompted me to notice three other things they often maintain, that are also not stated in scripture.
 
Now, to what degree this thread has caused anyone to think, I believe is a good thing. Will people change their minds? I have no idea. Some people claim that no one ever does. I know that they are mistaken. I cannot help but wonder, if they are not saying, that they do not believe anyone will, because they cannot conceive of changing their own mind, because they are convinced and nothing will unconvince them.
 
I sure hope that is not the case. I hate to think that anyone is so sure of themselves, that truth, bible verses, ideas from their brothers and sisters, or even God Himself could not move them.
 
There is no need to have animosity, no need to attack or to feel attacked. These are ideas we are discussing, important ideas, yes, critical ideas, no.
 
In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas
 
In necessary things, unity
In doubtful things, liberty
In all things, charity
 
In my opinion, the pre-trib rapture theory, likely has the least amount of biblical support of any popular, eschatological theory. As such, I cannot support it, and will not promote it. However, that is just an opinion, others have their opinions. I have laid out ideas, that some people think are valid. All I did, was to state that they are not scriptural ideas, and provided an opportunity to post verse to demonstrate that I am in error. So far, I have not seen that done, and few have attempted to even do so. People do seem willing, however, to defend their beliefs,
 
By all means feel free to defend those beliefs, but do so in a thread that is for that purpose, if you do not see one you like, start one!. No one is making anyone participate here, if you do not like the thread, there are others. Don't like my style, my methods, my personality? Then avoid me, I won't be offended!
 
Anyway, as I said, I am considering closing this thread. I still invite and desire to see some one disprove the items my list of nine in the original post. If someone manages to find a verse or verses that demonstrate the the bible does confirm those idea (not in some wobbly inference, but a real refutation) I will acknowledge that point here, gladly.
 
If this is going to go in the direction of bitterness and misdirection of the real topic, then I will close it down as a poor judgement on my part. 
 
Thanks for listening, and for participating, and for your good intentions.
Edited by Omegaman 3.0
I had said that I was considering closing the thread in about thirteen hours. Since the thread has mellowed out, I see no reason to do so, so I removed that comment.
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It does not say that Jesus can return at any moment.

 

Let's just take this statement and prove it is false.  That should be sufficient to prove that all this about the Bible not saying something has no merit, because clearly God expects us to draw inferences from a study of His Word.

 

Can the Lord Jesus Christ return at any moment?  That is the issue. If there is a verse or verses that clearly states this then we have nullified the above assertion.

 

Unqualified (Jn 14:3)

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

 

Unannounced (Mt 24:44)

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

 

Unexpected (Mt 24:13)

Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

 

Now let's see if after this Omegaman acknowledges Scripture, and takes down his *billboard*, since we could apply the same technique to all the other claims.

 

 

I sure hope he remains strong in his stance since you have not proven his statement incorrect. 

He said that Jesus could not return AT ANY MOMENT.  Those Scriptures prove that He could return AT ANY MOMENT.  If we cannot accept that from Scripture, then we have a serious problem.

 

 

Qualified (2Thessalonians 2:1-3)

 

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

 

The resurrection / rapture (our gathering together to HIm) comes after the man of sin is revealed.  It doesn't get much simpler than that.  Christ's return is not imminent.  You need to consider the whole of scripture. 

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On 5/28/2015 at 8:25 AM, Ezra said:

 

Quote

It does not say that Jesus can return at any moment.

 

Let's just take this statement and prove it is false.  That should be sufficient to prove that all this about the Bible not saying something has no merit, because clearly God expects us to draw inferences from a study of His Word.

 

Can the Lord Jesus Christ return at any moment?  That is the issue. If there is a verse or verses that clearly states this then we have nullified the above assertion.

 

Unqualified (Jn 14:3)

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

 

Unannounced (Mt 24:44)

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

 

Unexpected (Mt 24:13)

Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

 

Now let's see if after this Omegaman acknowledges Scripture, and takes down his *billboard*, since we could apply the same technique to all the other claims.

 

 

 

I am not going to give this topic the attention that it deserves, it is a big topic. Basically we are speaking about the Doctrine of His imminent Return, the idea that Jesus could return without any necessary prior events taking place before He returns.

 

First off, yes I acknowledge the scriptures you post Ezra. The are all in the Word of God, and like everything in the word of God, they are all true.

 

Let me point out however, that there is a difference between the word of God and what it says, and what He means, and our understanding of what we think He means, when He said what He said. I feel certain that you would not disagree with that. So, having said that, can we admit, that you and I are both human, and could possibly be wrong in what we think God has said? I know I can freely admit, I might be wrong. In fact, this thread was an invitation to prove me wrong.

 

I need to complement you, that you have posted scripture verses that you believe, contradict my contention that the bible does not say, Jesus may return at any moment,

 

First off, I like that you quoted Jesus Himself. There can be no higher authority about when he will return, than He Himself, unless God the Father were to speak directly to this. That it is Jesus speaking, makes this easier to deal with, because it limits the context a little bit, and I do not have to run all around the scripture finding obscure references of a more general nature.

 

In context here, we have Jesus speaking, That limits us to a period of what, 3 to 3-1/2 years? I am not sure of that, but it is limited in time span. Now, here I cannot say that Jesus did not say what He said, so If I claim that the Bible does not say that Jesus can come at anytime, then all that is necessary is for me to demonstrate that Jesus did not mean to say that there is nothing that is predicted to, or must happen, before He returns. If there is just one such thing, then His return could not be at any moment. Of course, we know that before He could return He would have to leave, but we will let that one pass as too obvious to be employed.

 

So, lets see if we can find anything that would transpire before Jesus would return.

 

  1. Jesus told the disciples not to leave Jerusalem, until the Spirit came upon them. This happened on the day of 
    Pentecost. So, would he return before that event?
  2. Jesus told the disciples to go into the whole world and preach the gospel, first in Jerusalem, then Judea, 
    Sumaria and finally to the uttermost parts of the Earth. So, would He come before they could execute His command? 
    How much time would it take to go to these places, and teach (make disciples, and baptize them?
  3. Jesus told Saul of Tarsus, the apostle Paul, to go into the city and wait. Doesn't this also imply, that Jesus 
    would not return while Paul was waiting there?
  4. When Paul went to Ananius, Ananius had a message from the Lord that Paul was to go and testify to Jews, and 
    Gentiles, and to Kings. So, would His return occur before Paul would carry out the things that the Lord said Paul would do?
  5. What about the conversion of Cornelius. Peter was to go to Cornelius according to a vision, so, would Jesus return before God's will was achieved in this matter?
  6. Acts 21, Paul was told by the Holy Spirit through Agabus, that he was to be bound by the Jews, and then sent to the 
    gentiles Rome. So, it seems that His return would be delayed some more, since Paul had to go to Rome first, to 
    fulfill this prophecy.
  7. Peter, was told by Jesus (John 21), that he (Peter) would die with his arms spread. Peter knew this, John knew 
    this, and probably the others knew this too. So, this implies that Jesus' return, would not occur during Peter's 
    lifetime, unless we are to assume, that Peter was not a Christian, and therefore not be included in the Rapture, What do you think?
  8. John wrote the Book of Revelation, while on exiled on the Isle of Patmos. His book was a letter, to be delivered to 
    the 7 churches which were in Asia. How likely is it, that the Rapture would happen, before the Book would be written and it's purpose of it then being read in the seven churches. Travel was slow in those days, and for that letter to get to one church and be read, and the next one, and then be read, and the next one, etc, would be a process adding more delays. The Rapture is again, seemingly delayed and not able to happen at any moment as some teach. It seems this idea is an error. 
It is true, that there was a time, when no one knew the day or he hour, but it was not said that no one would 
ever know. What we are seeing here, is that while no one knew the day or the hour, they did know that there were 
times, when it would NOT happen.In Revelation 10, John learns that he must prophesy again, to many peoples, in many languages and Kings. 
 
Sigh, more pesky delays!
 
Now, if the early church knew these things, why would we assume that they thought that the rapture could happen at 
any moment. Clearly, they could not, unless they were ignorant of all of these things. We, are not ignorant, however, so we can see that the verse about the day or the hour being unknown, did NOT mean that it could happen at any time, it only meant that it would happen, at a later, unknown (to them) time.

 

Seems to me then considering all of these things, that jesus could not be telling His disciples, that His coming could happen at any moment, only that the exact time was not know, and that it would happen after some delay. Therefore, imminence is not true.

 

What is true, is that His coming could be a surprise, any moment event. However it WOULD be a surprise to unbelievers. His coming would be sudden, it would catch some people off guard. His coming would be quick, though not necessarily soon, and we understand that. Indeed, normally we would not think that 2000 years (and counting) is soon.

 

So, the actual bible teaching is not that He could come at any moment without any delay of any kind, but that He would come after certain delays, and that some people would be surprised by that, those who are not expecting Him to come. We however ARE expecting Him to come. We are not in darkness, that that day should overtake us as a thief. THAT, is scriptural.

 

I know, there are replies that people can make, to argue still further, I have heard them, and they are also, dispensed with as easily as an "any moment coming" was. I won't be dealing with that in this thread. That is beyond the scope. This was beyond the scope for that matter, However, I felt since you made an honest attempt to disprove one of my contentions with actual scripture (thank you for that) that is deserved to be acknowledged and deal with.

 

However, you also said this"

 

"Now let's see if after this Omegaman acknowledges Scripture, and takes down his *billboard*, since we could apply the same technique to all the other claims."

 

I acknowledged scripture, did I not? Can you do the same, or are you going to claim that the scripture I posted, and the references to events you know to be contained in the pages of scripture, some how do not undermine what you thought the scripture you posted implied? So far, I see no reason to take down this "billboard", lol, or at least not because there is any demonstrated errors in what I posted. Sure, you could apply the same technique to all the other claims, and I could apply the same sort of replies as I just made, to your technique here. Kudos for trying though, good job!

 

By the way, for those interested in the topic of imminent return there is a

, about ten minutes long each, that goes into this is what I think is an easy to follow manmer

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Shalom, Omegaman.

 

 

I was thinking about closing the topic altogether. Certain comments about how ugly things are, and about underhandedness etc, made me think that that this was not a great idea.

 

Let me get my cards on the table before continueing.

 

First off, yes, this topic was engineered in a certain way. I was being truthful, when I said:

 

Notice, that this list, does not establish any end times 
theory, it tries to prove nothing. It does not even 
attack a theory, or attempt to refute one. 
 
What it does attempt to do, is to get people to ask 
themselves, why they believe certain things, that the 
Bible never says.
 
Did I know or expect, that that this would likely stimulate people of a specific viewpoint to respond? Of course I did, as I was stating things that the Bible does not say, that certain people believe to be true. What I am seeing, is that most of them have not made an attempt to show that the Bible actually does say these things. Instead, they often try to show us that they have reasons for their beliefs. I never doubted that they have reasons, there is a whole thread on the defense of pre-trib rapture.
 
However, by not engaging this thread as I set it up to be engaged, they basically are admitting unintentionally, and some have been honest enough to say so explicitly, that the bible indeed does not say they things some of them hold to be true doctrine. Not only this, but in this process, they have prompted me to notice three other things they often maintain, that are also not stated in scripture.
 
Now, to what degree this thread has caused anyone to think, I believe is a good thing. Will people change their minds? I have no idea. Some people claim that no one ever does. I know that they are mistaken. I cannot help but wonder, if they are not saying, that they do not believe anyone will, because they cannot conceive of changing their own mind, because they are convinced and nothing will unconvince them.
 
I sure hope that is not the case. I hate to think that anyone is so sure of themselves, that truth, bible verses, ideas from their brothers and sisters, or even God Himself could not move them.
 
There is no need to have animosity, no need to attack or to feel attacked. These are ideas we are discussing, important ideas, yes, critical ideas, no.
 
In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas
 
In necessary things, unity
In doubtful things, liberty
In all things, charity
 
In my opinion, the pre-trib rapture theory, likely has the least amount of biblical support of any popular, eschatological theory. As such, I cannot support it, and will not promote it. However, that is just an opinion, others have their opinions. I have laid out ideas, that some people think are valid. All I did, was to state that they are not scriptural ideas, and provided an opportunity to post verse to demonstrate that I am in error. So far, I have not seen that done, and few have attempted to even do so. People do seem willing, however, to defend their beliefs,
 
By all means feel free to defend those beliefs, but do so in a thread that is for that purpose, if you do not see one you like, start one!. No one is making anyone participate here, if you do not like the thread, there are others. Don't like my style, my methods, my personality? Then avoid me, I won't be offended!
 
Anyway, as I said, I am considering closing this thread. I still invite and desire to see some one disprove the items my list of nine in the original post. If someone manages to find a verse or verses that demonstrate the the bible does confirm those idea (not in some wobbly inference, but a real refutation) I will acknowledge that point here, gladly.
 
If this is going to go in the direction of bitterness and misdirection of the real topic, then I will close it down as a poor judgement on my part. My current thinking is to close it in about 13 hours, if it does not improve. So, if you have something to say, get it off your chest while the thread remains open.
 
Thanks for listening, and for participating, and for your good intentions.

 

 

I got it, and I’m sorry that so many others didn’t. The old saying, “Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity,” comes to mind. One should NEVER think badly of a brother or sister without good cause. Now, not to call you “stupid,” except in the sense that we are ALL “stupid” next to God’s wisdom and intelligence, but just because we show what may be deemed by others to be “stupidity,” does NOT mean that we are being “underhanded” or “manipulative."

 

What you presented was a valid teaching method, and I appreciate the time and effort that went into this topic. Even if it was a bit too much of the “Socratic question” for the comfort of others, I believe that it was PRECISELY what most Christians need! We ALL need the “swift kick to the behind” to get us to the point where we have an answer to anyone who asks us why we believe what we believe. Again, thank you for a fresh idea!

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Now, if the early church knew these things, why would we assume that they thought that the rapture could happen at any moment

Two reasons:
 
1. The Rapture is not dependent on, or controlled by, any other events.  Check it out for yourself.
 
2. The early Church was aware of the following words of Christ, and therefore had the saying "Maran-atha".  In fact Paul uses Maranatha ("O Lord, come" according to Vine, which corresponds to the verse below): He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen.  Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (Rev 22:20)
 
The fact that "quickly" could be after 2,000 years is irrelevant, since a thousand years are as but one day in the sight of the Lord (2 Pet 3:8).  In the light of eternity, only two days have passed since the Lord made that statement.
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