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Things the Bible does not say about the End Times


Omegaman 3.0

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Guest Teditis

Christ's return may or may not be immanent because they require certain "signs" to proceed His

return. However, such signs have been missed before and there's no guarantee that we haven't

missed some again... right or wrong?

Who are we to say that all the actors aren't already on stage now? Can you be so sure that they aren't?

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Christ's return may or may not be immanent because they require certain "signs" to proceed His

return. However, such signs have been missed before and there's no guarantee that we haven't

missed some again... right or wrong?

Who are we to say that all the actors aren't already on stage now? Can you be so sure that they aren't?

 

When you look at the rest of what scripture says about Christ's return and our gathering together to Him, it happens:

 

at the last trumpet.

on the last day.

on the day of the Lord.

like a thief in the night.

after the armies gather together for Armageddon.

 

There's really only one event you can tie all of that to.  We can't be at that point and not know it.

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Christ's return may or may not be immanent because they require certain "signs" to proceed His

return. However, such signs have been missed before and there's no guarantee that we haven't

missed some again... right or wrong?

Who are we to say that all the actors aren't already on stage now? Can you be so sure that they aren't?

Well Teditis, I hesitate to respond, since doing so, turns it into a thread about immanence, instead of a thread about things the Bible does not say. I went into it in some detail, to demonstrate that one of the posts, which seemed to confidently assert that I was mistaken spoke to imminence as being proven by specific texts. I then demonstrated that this understanding of these verse could not be describing His possible, immediate return, because in fact there were still things that were yet to take place.

I stopped short of taking the examination further, because if only one thing needed to yet happen, then applying those verse in that way meant that that understanding was necessarily wrong.

I did not limit myself to just one way of dismantling that notion, I provided what 8, maybe 10? There are more than that. I beleive I proved that Jesus return was not imminent when He spoke of not knowing the time of His return. The fact that they did not know that His coming was more that 2000 years off, proves that they did not know when it was, so Jesus was absolutely correct when He said what He said.

However, not knowing, means one is ignorant, it does not mean that it is could be immediate. If I were to tell you that that I will be back someday, but I have to climb Mt Everest next spring first. That leaves you uncertain of when my return will be, but you know it is not tomorrow. In that case, my return is unknown, but it is not imminent. That is what Jesus said, you do not know. However, not knowng when, does not mean you cannot know when He won't come.

I believe I successfully proved that the three verses provided, which were implied to show Jesus coming was imminent, could not have meant that. Do we want to take verses, which we know did not teach imminence at that time, in context, and now claim that they teach it for the present? I sure hope we don't think like that.

Now, of course there will come a time, when there are no more things that must happen before He returns. Then will His coming be imminent. Of course it will. But what my point was, that the Bible does not teach his imminent return, still stands. However, just because the Bible never taught it, does not mean that His return would not someday become imminent. 

I could get into that topic of "has His coming become imminent, but that is a different topic of whether the bible declares that His coming IS imminent, don't you think?

Look over Jesus answer to the question "What will be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?" in Matt 24, look at the list Jesus gives, look ant the words like "then", "at that time", "immediately after", etc, and see if you think that He provided anything that might have to intervene first.

If you do that, don't bring your conclusions into this thread, imminence is not this topic, this topic is did the bible teach it, or not. I say not and that was all I meant to say about it in this thread. I went against my better judgement and was taken off topic, becuase I thought somebody deserved a decent, if incomplete response.

Have you ever spoken to an unbeliever, and stated something about God or Jesus, and they object? Then you answer that objection, and then they say "Well, what about such and such?" You answer that objection also, and they say "yes but . . "

It is frustrating, because you can provide good sound answers, but they always have a "yes but" in reserve. They do not say, wow, that is a good point, thank you, I never thought of that. Instead, they say "yes, but . . . " They are not interested in learning, they are interesting in maintaining their position in spite of facts. It is not about evidence, it is about attitude, stubborn refusal, to admit that they might be wrong. I know what it is like, because I was once an atheist, about half a lifetime ago, I know the the "yes but" game.

Well, we believers still play the "yes but" game. We are seeing it in this thread. 

So, is it possible we have missed signs etc Ted? I suppose it is, but again, that is not the topic. there probably is topic here somewhere that deal with the question of "Can He come at any moment?" This is not it, here I only stated that the Bible never says that, and so far, I have to think that statement is true.

Thanks

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Now, if the early church knew these things, why would we assume that they thought that the rapture could happen at any moment

Two reasons:
 
1. The Rapture is not dependent on, or controlled by, any other events.  Check it out for yourself.
 
2. The early Church was aware of the following words of Christ, and therefore had the saying "Maran-atha".  In fact Paul uses Maranatha ("O Lord, come" according to Vine, which corresponds to the verse below): He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen.  Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (Rev 22:20)
 
The fact that "quickly" could be after 2,000 years is irrelevant, since a thousand years are as but one day in the sight of the Lord (2 Pet 3:8).  In the light of eternity, only two days have passed since the Lord made that statement.

 

Boy, I see you totally missed the point, lol, or ignored it. I think I am through with you Ezra, in this thread. maybe we can pick it up some more in another thread, I cannot waste more time here with people who cannot say, "wow, that is a good point I never thought of that, and instead play the "yes but" game, as I described in the previous post. Maranatha - Even so come, Lord Jesus!

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Shalom, Omegaman.

I got it, and I’m sorry that so many others didn’t. The old saying, “Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity,” comes to mind. One should NEVER think badly of a brother or sister without good cause. Now, not to call you “stupid,” except in the sense that we are ALL “stupid” next to God’s wisdom and intelligence, but just because we show what may be deemed by others to be “stupidity,” does NOT mean that we are being “underhanded” or “manipulative."

So this text says that if we didn't GET  the OP it is because we are stupid. I am done with this thread!

Edited by firestormx
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Hi Omegaman 3.0,

Thank you for replying, however you have put up a challenge & I did respond.

You said in your opening post -
 

`So, what things do I claim the Bible does not teach?
Following is a short list:

It does not say there will be a Rapture of the Church,
which occurs before the Great Tribulation.`


Then the challenge in post 25 -
 

`I feel a little like Goliath, challenging the army of Israel : "Is there no one among you who will answer this challenge?"`


Now my reply in post 31 -
 

`I do not believe the Body of Christ being `caught away,` when it is complete, mature, is escapism, as you said. I do not really get caught up in pre-mid-post views, however if you would like a soap-box debate on this issue I would be willing to debate with you. Note, I will not use any scriptures that pre-tribs usually do. Is that a fair challenge?`


Marilyn.

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It does not say that Jesus can return at any moment.

 

Let's just take this statement and prove it is false.  That should be sufficient to prove that all this about the Bible not saying something has no merit, because clearly God expects us to draw inferences from a study of His Word.

 

Can the Lord Jesus Christ return at any moment?  That is the issue. If there is a verse or verses that clearly states this then we have nullified the above assertion.

 

Unqualified (Jn 14:3)

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

 

Unannounced (Mt 24:44)

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

 

Unexpected (Mt 24:13)

Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

 

Now let's see if after this Omegaman acknowledges Scripture, and takes down his *billboard*, since we could apply the same technique to all the other claims.

 

 

I sure hope he remains strong in his stance since you have not proven his statement incorrect. 

He said that Jesus could not return AT ANY MOMENT.  Those Scriptures prove that He could return AT ANY MOMENT.  If we cannot accept that from Scripture, then we have a serious problem.

 

 

If you ignore all that was said about His return, then your theory would hold water.  The serious problem is when you ignore what is written about what must happen before He returns.

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Hi Omegaman 3.0,

Thank you for replying, however you have put up a challenge & I did respond.

You said in your opening post -

 

`So, what things do I claim the Bible does not teach?

Following is a short list:

It does not say there will be a Rapture of the Church,

which occurs before the Great Tribulation.`

Then the challenge in post 25 -

 

`I feel a little like Goliath, challenging the army of Israel : "Is there no one among you who will answer this challenge?"`

Now my reply in post 31 -

 

`I do not believe the Body of Christ being `caught away,` when it is complete, mature, is escapism, as you said. I do not really get caught up in pre-mid-post views, however if you would like a soap-box debate on this issue I would be willing to debate with you. Note, I will not use any scriptures that pre-tribs usually do. Is that a fair challenge?`

Marilyn.

 

I am not sure I am understanding what you just wrote here, I will look at it again when I am not feeling sleep deprived.

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Hi Omegaman 3.0,

 

Just to clarify for you what I am saying - You made a statement saying that `the Bible does not teach that there will be a rapture of the Church before the great tribulation.` You later made a challenge as to anyone to disprove that. I again reply that not only will I not use the general scriptures that have been discussed over & over, but I will also only have probably 3 posts to explain my view.

 

I wont do it here as it is not one on one & also can get lost in other discussions. And finally I would not want to get the thoughts/revelation lost down in the depths of a thread. So if you were serious about that `challenge,` (`...is there no one among you who will answer this challenge?`) then let us have a very short soap-box debate, (as I realise you are busy with the 5 min. theology topics.)

 

 

Marilyn.

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