Things the Bible does not say about the End Times

[Marilyn C]

 

Hi Omegaman 3.0,

 

Do you realise that -

 

`...knowing first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,...` (2 Peter 1: 20)

 

Meaning that no scripture is to be taken by itself - not `private or separate,` (Gk. `idios). Thus you need to rethink your position.

 

Marilyn.

 

Hi Marilyn. Thanks for that advice. It is good advice. Is there some reason, that you think I do not already understand these things, and take them seriously? I have been rethinking my position for over 3 decades, and continue to do so to this day. I just finished taking a 5 week class on the book of Revelation, and the teacher had some interesting things to say, things worth considering. His position was from an amillennial, preterist position. While I am not convinced to change views just yet, he was pretty persuasive. He, like myself, is a former pre-tribber. Like myself, it was his study of scripture, that led him to abandon pre-trib rapture eschatology.

 

I am also looking into yet another position which I was recently introduced to. I never stop investigating this topic, but I plan to, when I meet the Lord, face to face.

 

Since these matters are of no private interpretation, what about you, should you rethink your position also, or is your personal interpretation okay? Just asking!

 

Hi Omegaman 3.0,

 

It seems I wasn`t clear in what I meant, sorry about that. I quoted 2 Peter 1: 20 as regards to just looking to one scripture & not taking in all others on the topic. I know people think that scripture is about us not interpreting scripture privately for ourselves, but that is not the meaning Peter was saying. It means that no scripture can be taken on its own, its own private interpretation, but must be taken with all other scriptures.

 

 

Hope that is clearer, as in your opening address you seem to want a specific scripture to answer your statements. Thus I wrote that scripture itself says you are not to do that, as each scripture on a topic (& also the whole Bible itself) is the framework for the answer.

 

Blessings, Marilyn.

 

 

PS. I do not believe the Body of Christ being `caught away,` when it is complete, mature, is escapism, as you said. I do not really get caught up in pre-mid-post views, however if you would like a soap-box debate on this issue I would be willing to debate with you. Note, I will not use any scriptures that pre-tribs usually do. Is that a fair challenge?

Edited May 28, 2015 by Marilyn C

[1x1is1]

It was an interesting beginning to this thread topic.  I lost interest before the second page was complete.  Too fast and furious, (borrowed phrase, not plagiarism) for me now.  I don't  remember ever witnessing such quick on the draw to hostility in so few posts.  It also saddens me to see folks attacked that I have great respect for.   I have not detected to any degree an attempt to derail this threat at all.  Maybe I will wait a spell and see if the dust and smoke clears before I participate.    

[firestormx]

 

Things the Bible DOES NOT SAY about the End Times

 

Notice, that this list, does not establish any end times 

theory, it tries to prove nothing. It does not even 

attack a theory, or attempt to refute one. 

 

What it does attempt to do, is to get people to ask 

themselves, why they believe certain things, that the 

Bible never says.

 

So basically, in between the lines I am asking: 

 

If we believe certain things that are not stated in the 

scripture, and claim that we believe them because that is what scripture teaches, aren't we in principle adding to the words of scripture?

A lot of things are not expressly stated in the bible, but that don't mean they are not true or the idea is not there. I mean, I could go to the extreme and say, " The bible doesn't say Jesus ever went to the bathroom but I'm pretty sure he did from time to time". would it mean I'm adding to scripture if I say Jesus went to the bathroom because it says he ate?

Furthermore, if we teach these things as though they are true, does that make us false teachers?

We can have all knowledge but without love we are just making noise.

So, what things do I claim the Bible does not teach? 

Following is a short list:

 

It does not say there will be a Rapture of the Church, 

which occurs before the Great Tribulation.

It doesn't say there won't be either!

It does not refer the the Great Tribulation as being 7 

years in length.

I have heard this before. I believe this belief comes from a lack of understanding of prophecy. But to phrase it like this to me, is like mocking a  8 year old child for not understanding Shakespeare 

It does not say that the Holy Spirit is removed from the 

Earth at any time during the Great Tribulation.

This is about the restrainer verse. While I agree with this statement I must again point out that the bible doesn't 100 % rule out the possibility either

It does not refer to the Great Tribulation, as the wrath 

of God.

This statement is a Play on words.  it does say things like ( in the bowel judgments are the fullness with the wrath of God ) . My point being that within the Great Tribulation the wrath of God is there. Your splitting hairs over a tittle /name When the idea is there, or at the least , Prove 100% beyond any doubt there is no wrath of God in the Great Tribulation.

It does not say that Jesus will return secretly or 

invisibly to take His Church.

But he did use the parable of returning like a thief robs a house, when no body thinks he is coming or realizes he is there. Once again, prove 100% he can't return this way. Because i will just show the verse that says what I just stated.

It does not say that no man will ever know the time (the

day or hour) of His coming.

" will ever know " is the key part of the above statement. Prove someone will know the time of his coming!

It does not say that Jesus can return at any moment.

It doesn't say he can't return at any moment either!

It does not say that Jesus will return like a thief in 

the night for His church.

play on words, see above

It does not say that believers will not be in the great 

tribulation, or skip suffering and persecution, or even 

death.

but it does give parables or express the idea. It doesn't say it's impossible for some believers to be spared the tribulation like Lot was Sodom and Gomorrah. 

Now, am I wrong about anything on that list. If so, can you provide scripture citations that would make anything in the list a misstatement?

I will conclude my response to this text by stating that I think this text is a good example of not following the verse that says, " knowledge puffs up but love edifies.

Thanks for your help!

May God Bless You

P.S. Please try to stick to the actual topic, and provide us with the information which would show me to be in error, when I claim the bible does not express the ideas in the list.

 

I am not Pre-trib. I don't like this post at all. Maybe my perception about this post and how it's written is wrong, but this post seems like passive-aggressive manipulation at the very least. It's a word play on some people's deeply held belief.   I don't believe this post would be an example of how Christians should express there thoughts and beliefs with each other.  So, even though I am not Pre-trib I will post my responses above in the main text with the hope that my answers to the text above will demonstrate my belief as I try to answer the questions with the intent of showing biblical possibility that is left in this world and the end times, according to scripture.

[Steve_S]

 

 

Things the Bible DOES NOT SAY about the End Times

 

Notice, that this list, does not establish any end times 

theory, it tries to prove nothing. It does not even 

attack a theory, or attempt to refute one. 

 

What it does attempt to do, is to get people to ask 

themselves, why they believe certain things, that the 

Bible never says.

 

So basically, in between the lines I am asking: 

 

If we believe certain things that are not stated in the 

scripture, and claim that we believe them because that is what scripture teaches, aren't we in principle adding to the words of scripture?

A lot of things are not expressly stated in the bible, but that don't mean they are not true or the idea is not there. I mean, I could go to the extreme and say, " The bible doesn't say Jesus ever went to the bathroom but I'm pretty sure he did from time to time". would it mean I'm adding to scripture if I say Jesus went to the bathroom because it says he ate?

Furthermore, if we teach these things as though they are true, does that make us false teachers?

We can have all knowledge but without love we are just making noise.

So, what things do I claim the Bible does not teach? 

Following is a short list:

 

It does not say there will be a Rapture of the Church, 

which occurs before the Great Tribulation.

It doesn't say there won't be either!

It does not refer the the Great Tribulation as being 7 

years in length.

I have heard this before. I believe this belief comes from a lack of understanding of prophecy. But to phrase it like this to me, is like mocking a  8 year old child for not understanding Shakespeare 

It does not say that the Holy Spirit is removed from the 

Earth at any time during the Great Tribulation.

This is about the restrainer verse. While I agree with this statement I must again point out that the bible doesn't 100 % rule out the possibility either

It does not refer to the Great Tribulation, as the wrath 

of God.

This statement is a Play on words.  it does say things like ( in the bowel judgments are the fullness with the wrath of God ) . My point being that within the Great Tribulation the wrath of God is there. Your splitting hairs over a tittle /name When the idea is there, or at the least , Prove 100% beyond any doubt there is no wrath of God in the Great Tribulation.

It does not say that Jesus will return secretly or 

invisibly to take His Church.

But he did use the parable of returning like a thief robs a house, when no body thinks he is coming or realizes he is there. Once again, prove 100% he can't return this way. Because i will just show the verse that says what I just stated.

It does not say that no man will ever know the time (the

day or hour) of His coming.

" will ever know " is the key part of the above statement. Prove someone will know the time of his coming!

It does not say that Jesus can return at any moment.

It doesn't say he can't return at any moment either!

It does not say that Jesus will return like a thief in 

the night for His church.

play on words, see above

It does not say that believers will not be in the great 

tribulation, or skip suffering and persecution, or even 

death.

but it does give parables or express the idea. It doesn't say it's impossible for some believers to be spared the tribulation like Lot was Sodom and Gomorrah. 

Now, am I wrong about anything on that list. If so, can you provide scripture citations that would make anything in the list a misstatement?

I will conclude my response to this text by stating that I think this text is a good example of not following the verse that says, " knowledge puffs up but love edifies.

Thanks for your help!

May God Bless You

P.S. Please try to stick to the actual topic, and provide us with the information which would show me to be in error, when I claim the bible does not express the ideas in the list.

 

I am not Pre-trib. I don't like this post at all. Maybe my perception about this post and how it's written is wrong, but this post seems like passive-aggressive manipulation at the very least. It's a word play on some people's deeply held belief.   I don't believe this post would be an example of how Christians should express there thoughts and beliefs with each other.  So, even though I am not Pre-trib I will post my responses above in the main text with the hope that my answers to the text above will demonstrate my belief as I try to answer the questions with the intent of showing biblical possibility that is left in this world and the end times, according to scripture.

 

 

I'm not sure how it is manipulative, he clearly states from the outset that it is designed to get people thinking about why they believe things that the bible never says? Why is this unacceptable on face value? 

[firestormx]

 

 

 

Things the Bible DOES NOT SAY about the End Times

 

Notice, that this list, does not establish any end times 

theory, it tries to prove nothing. It does not even 

attack a theory, or attempt to refute one. 

 

What it does attempt to do, is to get people to ask 

themselves, why they believe certain things, that the 

Bible never says.

 

So basically, in between the lines I am asking: 

 

If we believe certain things that are not stated in the 

scripture, and claim that we believe them because that is what scripture teaches, aren't we in principle adding to the words of scripture?

A lot of things are not expressly stated in the bible, but that don't mean they are not true or the idea is not there. I mean, I could go to the extreme and say, " The bible doesn't say Jesus ever went to the bathroom but I'm pretty sure he did from time to time". would it mean I'm adding to scripture if I say Jesus went to the bathroom because it says he ate?

Furthermore, if we teach these things as though they are true, does that make us false teachers?

We can have all knowledge but without love we are just making noise.

So, what things do I claim the Bible does not teach? 

Following is a short list:

 

It does not say there will be a Rapture of the Church, 

which occurs before the Great Tribulation.

It doesn't say there won't be either!

It does not refer the the Great Tribulation as being 7 

years in length.

I have heard this before. I believe this belief comes from a lack of understanding of prophecy. But to phrase it like this to me, is like mocking a  8 year old child for not understanding Shakespeare 

It does not say that the Holy Spirit is removed from the 

Earth at any time during the Great Tribulation.

This is about the restrainer verse. While I agree with this statement I must again point out that the bible doesn't 100 % rule out the possibility either

It does not refer to the Great Tribulation, as the wrath 

of God.

This statement is a Play on words.  it does say things like ( in the bowel judgments are the fullness with the wrath of God ) . My point being that within the Great Tribulation the wrath of God is there. Your splitting hairs over a tittle /name When the idea is there, or at the least , Prove 100% beyond any doubt there is no wrath of God in the Great Tribulation.

It does not say that Jesus will return secretly or 

invisibly to take His Church.

But he did use the parable of returning like a thief robs a house, when no body thinks he is coming or realizes he is there. Once again, prove 100% he can't return this way. Because i will just show the verse that says what I just stated.

It does not say that no man will ever know the time (the

day or hour) of His coming.

" will ever know " is the key part of the above statement. Prove someone will know the time of his coming!

It does not say that Jesus can return at any moment.

It doesn't say he can't return at any moment either!

It does not say that Jesus will return like a thief in 

the night for His church.

play on words, see above

It does not say that believers will not be in the great 

tribulation, or skip suffering and persecution, or even 

death.

but it does give parables or express the idea. It doesn't say it's impossible for some believers to be spared the tribulation like Lot was Sodom and Gomorrah. 

Now, am I wrong about anything on that list. If so, can you provide scripture citations that would make anything in the list a misstatement?

I will conclude my response to this text by stating that I think this text is a good example of not following the verse that says, " knowledge puffs up but love edifies.

Thanks for your help!

May God Bless You

P.S. Please try to stick to the actual topic, and provide us with the information which would show me to be in error, when I claim the bible does not express the ideas in the list.

 

I am not Pre-trib. I don't like this post at all. Maybe my perception about this post and how it's written is wrong, but this post seems like passive-aggressive manipulation at the very least. It's a word play on some people's deeply held belief.   I don't believe this post would be an example of how Christians should express there thoughts and beliefs with each other.  So, even though I am not Pre-trib I will post my responses above in the main text with the hope that my answers to the text above will demonstrate my belief as I try to answer the questions with the intent of showing biblical possibility that is left in this world and the end times, according to scripture.

 

 

I'm not sure how it is manipulative, he clearly states from the outset that it is designed to get people thinking about why they believe things that the bible never says? Why is this unacceptable on face value? 

 

It is unacceptable because it changes one or two words of a verse ( like will ever add to the verse about knowing when Jesus returns ) combined with the way the questions are asked is underhanded. Something being done in an underhanded way is a definition of manipulate . It says it does not attack a theory when the whole thing is an attack on Pre-trib. Almost every thing posted in the text has just 1 or 2 words added or changed from scripture, all the while condemning when people change scripture. Like Jesus not coming like a thief for his church. Clearly this is a biblical reference added , then changed or altered. For Jesus himself talks about this subject of coming like a thief. I'm not stupid, I get the point the text tries to make, which is read the bible more carefully, do not presume, and everything has to match up with the word. but it is done in my opinion in an underhanded way. Example, when I was a kid all the way into my adult years I was taught the Jesus threw our sins into the sea of forgetfulness . Imagine my surprise when I realize there is no sea of forgetfulness in the bible any where. I  had been believing tradition and man's doctrine and not what the bible actually says. I get what the post is trying to say. However, From my point of view, the entire post is written with very deceptive questions you will purposefully misunderstand if you are not careful . that from my point of view is unacceptable and manipulative.   

[hmbld]

Fire, isn't that the whole point? So many people express their opinion of what the bible states instead of stating exactly the truth in the bible. Mega is very careful with words. I don't find it underhanded at all. I for one, am drawn in to consider mega's attention to wording. A beautiful post of precision, thanks mega!

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Omegaman.

 

 

Things the Bible DOES NOT SAY about the End Times

 

Notice, that this list, does not establish any end times 

theory, it tries to prove nothing. It does not even 

attack a theory, or attempt to refute one. 

 

What it does attempt to do, is to get people to ask 

themselves, why they believe certain things, that the 

Bible never says.

 

So basically, in between the lines I am asking: 

 

If we believe certain things that are not stated in the 

scripture, and claim that we believe them because that is what scripture teaches, aren't we in principle adding to the words of scripture?

 

Furthermore, if we teach these things as though they are true, does that make us false teachers?

 

So, what things do I claim the Bible does not teach? 

Following is a short list:

 

It does not say there will be a Rapture of the Church, 

which occurs before the Great Tribulation.

 

It does not refer the the Great Tribulation as being 7 

years in length.

 

It does not say that the Holy Spirit is removed from the 

Earth at any time during the Great Tribulation.

 

It does not refer to the Great Tribulation, as the wrath 

of God.

 

It does not say that Jesus will return secretly or 

invisibly to take His Church.

 

It does not say that no man will ever know the time (the

day or hour) of His coming.

 

It does not say that Jesus can return at any moment.

 

It does not say that Jesus will return like a thief in 

the night for His church.

 

It does not say that believers will not be in the great 

tribulation, or skip suffering and persecution, or even 

death.

 

Now, am I wrong about anything on that list. If so, can you provide scripture citations that would make anything in the list a misstatement?

 

Thanks for your help!

 

P.S. Please try to stick to the actual topic, and provide us with the information which would show me to be in error, when I claim the bible does not express the ideas in the list.

 

I think what you have written is BRILLIANT! You’re simply playing “God’s Advocate.” (“Devil’s advocate” is what most people know, but this is FAR from haSatan’s thinking.) It’s simple, inductive reasoning, that is just as much a valid way of logically coming to conclusions as is deductive reasoning.

 

The one that seems blatant to me is “It does not say that no man will ever know the time (the day or hour) of His coming."

 

The Scriptures DO say, 

 

Matthew 24:34-39

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

KJV

 

 

I might need to back up a little more, but Yeshua` is talking about the “coming of the Son of man” here. One might argue that in some Greek versions the phrase “nor the Son” is also present, but Mark’s account of the same speech - which is not so disputed - says it:

 

Mark 13:26-34

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. ...

KJV

 

That’s all I’ll add at this time. Absolutely BRILLIANT!

[Omegaman 3.0]

Fire, isn't that the whole point? So many people express their opinion of what the bible states instead of stating exactly the truth in the bible. Mega is very careful with words. I don't find it underhanded at all. I for one, am drawn in to consider mega's attention to wording. A beautiful post of precision, thanks mega!

Thanks for noticing hmbld, and thanks for your comment.

 

Fire, you said:

 

 

It is unacceptable because it changes one or two words of a verse ( like will ever add to the verse about knowing when Jesus returns ) combined with the way the questions are asked is underhanded.

 

 

That comment makes me wonder if you really even read my posts (other than just glancing at them. Clearly you failed to understand them.

I did not change the words of any scripture, I pointed out what they do not say, it is those who have taken the views of those in the list, who have effectively changed scripture. For example, in the "no one knows" example you use, their understanding would be correct, if that verse did say "no one will ever know". As I point out, it does NOT say that, so I am not the one adding words to scripture, I am the one who is suggesting that we do not add to scripture, and just accept them as is. 

Now, if you actually did understand what I was saying, and you altered what I said, who would be the underhanded one? I am going to assume, you just made a mistake.

 

[Ezra]

It does not say that Jesus can return at any moment.

 

Let's just take this statement and prove it is false.  That should be sufficient to prove that all this about the Bible not saying something has no merit, because clearly God expects us to draw inferences from a study of His Word.

 

Can the Lord Jesus Christ return at any moment?  That is the issue. If there is a verse or verses that clearly states this then we have nullified the above assertion.

 

Unqualified (Jn 14:3)

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

 

Unannounced (Mt 24:44)

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

 

Unexpected (Mt 24:13)

Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

 

Now let's see if after this Omegaman acknowledges Scripture, and takes down his *billboard*, since we could apply the same technique to all the other claims.

[OneLight]

 

It does not say that Jesus can return at any moment.

 

Let's just take this statement and prove it is false.  That should be sufficient to prove that all this about the Bible not saying something has no merit, because clearly God expects us to draw inferences from a study of His Word.

 

Can the Lord Jesus Christ return at any moment?  That is the issue. If there is a verse or verses that clearly states this then we have nullified the above assertion.

 

Unqualified (Jn 14:3)

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

 

Unannounced (Mt 24:44)

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

 

Unexpected (Mt 24:13)

Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

 

Now let's see if after this Omegaman acknowledges Scripture, and takes down his *billboard*, since we could apply the same technique to all the other claims.

 

 

I sure hope he remains strong in his stance since you have not proven his statement incorrect.  Jesus second coming has to follow certain "seasons", otherwise, He would never of told us to be watchful.  Yes, Christ will come again; yes, we do not know the day nor hour; yes, He will come when He is ready, not when we expect Him to come.  None of these statements [points to Him coming at any time.