Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[Omegaman 3.0]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Question: if posttrib believers did not have the gathering as shown in Matthew 24, what else do they have? Does posttrib belief hang on this one scripture?

Harldy! In my case, I go with the bulk of evidence from scripture. That evidence points most clearly, to a post tribulation, second coming or return of Christ, something that most pre-tribulation rapture theorists agree with.

The controversy arises, when pre-tribbers insist that there is (in spite of the lack of any specific scriptural verses to indicate a pre-trib rapture) a separate pre-tribulation coming of Christ to gather His church. They sometimes use words like His imminent coming, or the secret rapture, etc. I only wish that they would let me in on where the Bible support for these ideas come from. That, I think, is the only thing secret about it!

That assertion, is a case based solely on speculation, assumed inferences, and in some cases, clearly misinterpreted and badly exegeted passages. If you think iamlamad, that  is not the case and desire me to elaborate, I will be happy to do so at a later time. Right how, I am about to leave for a home Bible study fellowship.

[BobRyan]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

 God will begin pouring out the vials of wrath to SHORTEN those days of great tribulation. Therefore, John shows us that His wrath and "great tribulation" are concurrent.

 

Of course, posttrib / prewrathers have no problem just rearranging Revelation to fit their theory. Van Kampan and Rosenthal had no problem with that! So what if John shows wrath and tribulation happening at the same time! Just rearrange what John wrote to fit this theory!

I have a better idea: come up with a theory that FITS Revelation as written!

My Post trib position (and the Bible post-trib) is also post-wrath rapture (i.e --2nd coming) -- is clear in this text.

 

Matthew 24

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect" Matt 24

The second coming appears in Rev 6 and in 14 and in 19. Sequences of 7 are in order within the sequence of 7 for the numbered events they provide. But that is about it.

After that you have Rev 11,12,13,14 more or less in order though 11,12,13 all have the same period of 1260 years of the dark ages in them.

Then Rev 16,19,20,21,22 more or less in order with a break when it comes to 17,18 that is out of sequence because it is given background to events taking place at the time of the plagues -- which are Rev 16.

[BobRyan]

My Post trib position (and the Bible post-trib) is also post-wrath rapture (i.e --2nd coming) -- is clear in this text.

 

Matthew 24

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect" Matt 24

 

1 Thess 4 "the dead in Christ rise FIRST"

Rev 21 "This is the FIRST resurrection..blessed and holy is he who has part in the FIRST resurrection over THESE the second death has no power"

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, BobRyan said:

My Post trib position (and the Bible post-trib) is also post-wrath rapture (i.e --2nd coming) -- is clear in this text.

 

Matthew 24

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect" Matt 24

The second coming appears in Rev 6 and in 14 and in 19. Sequences of 7 are in order within the sequence of 7 for the numbered events they provide. But that is about it.

After that you have Rev 11,12,13,14 more or less in order though 11,12,13 all have the same period of 1260 years of the dark ages in them.

Then Rev 16,19,20,21,22 more or less in order with a break when it comes to 17,18 that is out of sequence because it is given background to events taking place at the time of the plagues -- which are Rev 16.

Of course the gathering shown in Matthew is true - but it is not Paul's rapture.  It will probably be a gathering of all descendants of Jacob back to Israel - whether they are in heaven or on the earth. Pau;'s rapture, on the other hand, will gather ONLY from the earth. Paul's rapture will come before and as the trigger for, the Day of the Lord. The Matthew Gathering will come late in the Day of the Lord. (John shows us the DAY begins before the 70th week begins.)

Sorry, but there is no coming in Rev. 6. Please show us a "coming" verse there. Neither is there a "coming" in Rev. 14.  As for "sequences of 7, the 70th week will begin with the 7th seal, and end with the 7th vial, with the midpoint marked with the 7th trumpet.

Sorry again, but the 1260 is DAYS not years. One final "7" will be 7 years of 360 days per year. That will add up to 250 days. Divide that by 2 and we get 1260 days. EAch half of the 70th week will be 1260 days, with the abomination the event that will divide the week.

We have many disagreements.

By the way, where do you see the days of great tribulation in Revelation?

Edited June 9, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Harldy! In my case, I go with the bulk of evidence from scripture. That evidence points most clearly, to a post tribulation, second coming or return of Christ, something that most pre-tribulation rapture theorists agree with.

The controversy arises, when pre-tribbers insist that there is (in spite of the lack of any specific scriptural verses to indicate a pre-trib rapture) a separate pre-tribulation coming of Christ to gather His church. They sometimes use words like His imminent coming, or the secret rapture, etc. I only wish that they would let me in on where the Bible support for these ideas come from. That, I think, is the only thing secret about it!

That assertion, is a case based solely on speculation, assumed inferences, and in some cases, clearly misinterpreted and badly exegeted passages. If you think iamlamad, that  is not the case and desire me to elaborate, I will be happy to do so at a later time. Right how, I am about to leave for a home Bible study fellowship.

I guess I am not a typical pretribber. I think only Paul and the book of Revelation gives us the real timing of the rapture. After all, it was a mystery before Paul wrote about it. And if we study 1 Thes. 4 & 5, Paul tells us the timing. His coming will be the trigger for the dead in Christ rising, and the dead in Christ rising will be the trigger for the start of the Day.

A split second after the dead have been raised, Paul shows us that two groups of people get two different results: those living in the light of the gospel get "salvation" and get to "live together with him." ("So shall we ever be with the Lord.") At the same moment in time, those living in darkness suffer "sudden destruction" and they cannot escape. Why? Because the ONLY escape will be via rapture.

What is Paul's "sudden destruction?" When the dead in Christ are raised, it will cause a worldwide earthquake, for the dead in Christ will be found around the world. So Paul tells us the timing of the rapture: it will come a moment before the great earthquake (Paul's sudden destruction) of the 6th seal.

Just so you know, the 6th seal comes before the start of the 70th week or "trib" which will start at the 7th seal. It was no mistake then, that John SAW the raptured church IN HEAVEN in chapter 7.

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Oh, really? I wonder what bible you are studying?

Rev. 15:² And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Here in chapter 15 the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of will begin. John saw the beheaded start to appear in heaven. We KNOW it cannot be sooner, because in chapter 14 John tells us of the warning not to take the mark - so we know the mark has not been established or at least enforced until after that.

So where do we find the vials of His wrath? They come in chapter 15. In fact, God will begin pouring out the vials of wrath to SHORTEN those days of great tribulation. Therefore, John shows us that His wrath and "great tribulation" are concurrent.

Of course, posttrib / prewrathers have no problem just rearranging Revelation to fit their theory. Van Kampan and Rosenthal had no problem with that! So what if John shows wrath and tribulation happening at the same time! Just rearrange what John wrote to fit this theory!

I have a better idea: come up with a theory that FITS Revelation as written!

I do apologize for reading all the word and not cherry picking. I know that makes it tough to follow but bear with me.

First the group on the sea of glass has 'gotten the victory. Past tense verb so the victory over the image of the beast, and his name, and the number of his name, is already won. Then John records, "And after that I looked...." this is in sequence following the 'gotten' victory over the beast.

You are mistaken about the concurrence of wrath and tribulation.  Great tribulation occurs because the people of God are being persecuted. If the people of God, whom have 'gotten' the victory over the beast, are standing on a sea of glass in heaven, then 'great tribulation' is over as there is no one left to persecute. Additionally, we see the wrath begin only after the people of God have been gathered. This is also stated by Jesus in Matthew 24. Jesus gave us a chronology of the end in this chapter: beginning of sorrows, great tribulation, the sign of the coming of the Son of Man, and then the gathering of the saints.

Actually great tribulation does not 'begin' in Ch 15. If you assume, and you do 'assume' Rev is chronological, then you have some explaining to do. In Rev 7:15. We see the multitude that came from 'great tribulation' in heaven around the moment when the 144,000 are sealed. There goes your supposed chronological idea for the book of Rev. But the point is this group is already in heaven, out of great tribulation, and well before the group in Rev 15, which also came from tribulation. Since these are the same group mentioned twice from varying perspective, seals and trumps run concurrently and the bowls are poured out in between, and alongside, the 7th Trump and 7th seal.

[BobRyan]

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Of course the gathering shown in Matthew is true - but it is not Paul's rapture.

These are not different Bibles - it is all the same - Matt 24 = 1Thess 4 = Rev 19-20 = John 14:1-3.... the rapture that happens at the 2nd coming.

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Sorry, but there is no coming in Rev. 6. Please show us a "coming" verse there

 Rev 6

¹² I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; ¹³ and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. ¹⁴ The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. ¹⁵ Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; ¹⁶ and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; ¹⁷ for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

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 Neither is there a "coming" in Rev. 14. 

Rev 14 -- saints taken to heaven at the 2nd coming

¹⁴ Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. ¹⁵ And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.” ¹⁶ Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.

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As for "sequences of 7, the 70th week will begin with the 7th seal, and end with the 7th vial, with the midpoint marked with the 7th trumpet.

There is no "70th week" in the entire book of Revelation.

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Sorry again, but the 1260 is DAYS not years.

All apocalyptic timelines use "day for year" just like Daniel 9

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One final "7" will be 7 years of 360 days per year. That will add up to 250 days. Divide that by 2 and we get 1260 days. EAch half of the 70th week will be 1260 days,

 More convoluted than it needs to be - one simple rule works. The one that everyone agrees to in Daniel 9 - day-for-year in apocalyptic timelines.

Quote

 We have many disagreements.

By the way, where do you see the days of great tribulation in Revelation?

Indeed many.

There is a huge tribulation in Rev 12 - for over 1000 years.

There is another example of one coming after the 1260 years - as specificed in Rev 13 such that in the future no one will be able to buy or sell.

And then there is the Rev 16 seven last plagues that come after that.

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I guess I am not a typical pretribber. I think only Paul and the book of Revelation gives us the real timing of the rapture.  

Really? What about this? You love chronological passages so the one below from Matt 24 should stick out like a sore thumb. Jesus is not only giving us the outline of the entire Revelation, He is giving us a few crucial details that we do not see in the last book. The end of the age passages in Matt 24 set the entire context and chronological order of Revelation and to ignore it is to miss a great deal of truth.

⁶ And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

⁷ For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

⁸ All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Verse 6-8 above is the beginning of the week. It is mentioned as directly preceding the A of D below. The "beginning of sorrows" is the first half of the week and mirrors at least 2 seals; peace taken from the earth and death, but does not seem to speak to the AC (1st seal) nor the 3rd seal (economic control, not economic collapse and a cashless society). As an aside, when the seals are opened the effects continue all through the last week. Sweeping changes are released and continue to the end. Is that too abstract? Can't be helped, the seals represent great changes in world conditions the likes of which we have not seen. Now the midpoint as foretold by Daniel:

¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Absolutely unequivocal. The first half of the week occurs before this. Remember what the disciples queried of Jesus? "3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world" Now, everything that comes after is the end of the age. Since there is a defined midpoint, the A of D of Daniel, there is also something comes before; namely the "beginning of sorrows", so named by Christ, identified as the first half of the week. And I know I don't need to mention that Daniel spoke of a full week, or a 7 year period, so it stands up to logic there must be a first half and a second half.

²¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

²² And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Only after the A of D can "great tribulation" occur. Notice the language that denotes succession; "For then shall be..." It's very simple," When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation...then shall be great tribulation,". Not before.  Great tribulation begins at the midpoint. 

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Some unspecified time period later, but "immediately after the tribulation of those days", the days following the A of D, the sign of the coming of the Son of man appears. So far the order is, as spoken by the same Jesus who is the entire bible, and gave John the Revelation, beginning of sorrows, A of D, and then the Sign of the Son of man. In that immutable order and none other.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The above event occurs in conjunction with Jesus coming in the clouds with power and glory in the sight of everyone. The gathering of the elect only happens here, after the beginning of sorrows, the A of D, great tribulation, and the Signs of Jesus coming. If you could find scripture as detailed and concise as the above for a pretrib gathering I would believe it. But you cannot. These verses not only fully refute a pretrib "rapture"(stupid, meaningless term in my opinion) but they set the order of the Revelation and solves any timing issues with the gathering and the day of the Lord.

 

After all, it was a mystery before Paul wrote about it. And if we study 1 Thes. 4 & 5,  Paul tells us the timing. His coming will be the trigger for the dead in Christ rising, and the dead in Christ rising will be the trigger for the start of the Day.

Unless you can post the specific verses that speak to timing your claim is weak.  The true timing is found in 2 Thess 2.

A split second after the dead have been raised, Paul shows us that two groups of people get two different results: those living in the light of the gospel get "salvation" and get to "live together with him." ("So shall we ever be with the Lord.") At the same moment in time, those living in darkness suffer "sudden destruction" and they cannot escape. Why? Because the ONLY escape will be via rapture.  Sure, after the A of D, Matt 24 and 2 Thess 2, I agree.

What is Paul's "sudden destruction?" When the dead in Christ are raised, it will cause a worldwide earthquake, for the dead in Christ will be found around the world. So Paul tells us the timing of the rapture: it will come a moment before the great earthquake (Paul's sudden destruction) of the 6th seal.

Objection. Speculation.

Just so you know, the 6th seal comes before the start of the 70th week or "trib" which will start at the 7th seal. It was no mistake then, that John SAW the raptured church IN HEAVEN in chapter 7.

Speculation again. Except for the church in heaven in Ch 7. Lets look.

Rev 7

¹³ And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

¹⁴ And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Yes, the church is in heaven, after coming out of "great tribulation". Pretrib falls again. As well as the strict chronological idea you promote. How can the trib start at the 7th seal when the Church is in heaven, from out of great tribulation, before the 7th seal is opened? Methinks your own words betray you. And not only this but what about the 5th seal? The 5th seal tells of the persecution of the elect, the church:

Rev 7

⁹ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

¹⁰ And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

¹¹ And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This group can be none other than the church. Brethren and fellow servants slain for the Word and their testimony. These are the believers, the church, the elect of God. Since this is true great tribulation must start at the 5th seal, making the 5th seal the midpoint. But that cannot be, can it? If it is, your entire timeline is off.

 

 

 

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

I do apologize for reading all the word and not cherry picking. I know that makes it tough to follow but bear with me.

First the group on the sea of glass has 'gotten the victory. Past tense verb so the victory over the image of the beast, and his name, and the number of his name, is already won. Then John records, "And after that I looked...." this is in sequence following the 'gotten' victory over the beast.

You are mistaken about the concurrence of wrath and tribulation.  Great tribulation occurs because the people of God are being persecuted. If the people of God, whom have 'gotten' the victory over the beast, are standing on a sea of glass in heaven, then 'great tribulation' is over as there is no one left to persecute. Additionally, we see the wrath begin only after the people of God have been gathered. This is also stated by Jesus in Matthew 24. Jesus gave us a chronology of the end in this chapter: beginning of sorrows, great tribulation, the sign of the coming of the Son of Man, and then the gathering of the saints.

Actually great tribulation does not 'begin' in Ch 15. If you assume, and you do 'assume' Rev is chronological, then you have some explaining to do. In Rev 7:15. We see the multitude that came from 'great tribulation' in heaven around the moment when the 144,000 are sealed. There goes your supposed chronological idea for the book of Rev. But the point is this group is already in heaven, out of great tribulation, and well before the group in Rev 15, which also came from tribulation. Since these are the same group mentioned twice from varying perspective, seals and trumps run concurrently and the bowls are poured out in between, and alongside, the 7th Trump and 7th seal.

Of course their battle is already won! They said NO to the Mark and lost their head. So their battles are now over and they are in heaven waiting for their resurrection.  The next thing John saw was the preparations for the vials to be poured out. Which is my point exactly: they are concurrent: while the Beast is chopping off heads, God will start the vials of His wrath, to shorten those days of GT.

Yes, OF COURSE the tribulation is great, because people must choose between the mark and losing their head. NO ONE wants to lose their head! It will be a time of GREAT pressure on people. My guess is, there will be no water to drink: all fresh water will have been turned into blood. The only way to get a drink will be to buy water from a store - but to buy will require the mark. But to take the mark will mean doom in the lake of fire.  And when in Revelation will the mark start being enforced? It will be AFTER the angels in Rev. 14 shout the warning not to take the mark.

"then 'great tribulation' is over as there is no one left to persecute"   You are mistaken! These seen in Rev. 15 are only the FIRST People to come. Many more will follow. The mark will just have been started to be enforced. The last half of the week will be 1260 days. The days of GT will be cut short, but HOW short? Make no mistake, they will go for many days; even many months. Remember, it will be the worst time ever on planet earth.  And the mark will be established and begin to be enforced some time AFTER the warning is given in chapter 14. 

"Additionally, we see the wrath begin only after the people of God have been gathered."  Please specify a verse for this theory?  in fact, it is a true statement, but I don't think we agree on why. Paul's rapture will take place just before the 6th seal and the start of His wrath. We could say that His wrath starts at the 6th seal, and with the first trumpet judgment. However, if someone argued that His wrath begins with the 6th seal earthquake, I would not argue the point.

However, we are now talking about things after the midpoint of the week. As soon as the pretrib rapture takes place, many will realize that Jesus really IS God, and will turn to Him, so the week will never be without saints. Rev. 12 tells us that Satan will first go after those in Judea who will flee into the wilderness, but failing to capture them, he will turn and attack the "remnant" of those who live Jesus. Why "remnant?" Very simple: the rapture took out the main group 3 1/2 years previous.

But now these new saints will be put under tremendous pressure: take the mark, or lose the head.

"Jesus gave us a chronology"   I agree on His chronology. However, I don't believe He was talking about the church. The gathering will be to bring all the descendants of Jacob back to Israel: from heaven and from earth. Always remember, Paul's gathering will gather only from earth.In Rev 7:15.

"We see the multitude that came from 'great tribulation' in heaven"  There is NO WAY John is telling us that these are coming from the days of GT that Jesus spoke of - that will be during the last half of the week. John has not yet even started the week. His meaning is simple: at the time of the rapture, people will be being put to death for their testimony around the world. It is like that in half the world today, and will certainly get worse. Did you not notice that John mentioned "great tribulation" in his letter to one of the churches?  The meaning there can certainly not be the days of GT that Jesus spoke of. Therefore, when we see these two words together: "great tribulation" It does not always mean those days Jesus spoke of. In fact, those two words were not enough for Jesus: He had to add that the will be worse than any other time in the world.

John's chronology stands FIRM as written. Any theory that must rearrange  will be proven wrong.

"Since these are the same group mentioned twice from varying perspective"  No, they are NOT the same group! One group is raptured pretrib (chapter 6 & 7) and NOT beheaded, and the other group are those arriving in heaven one by one as they are beheaded.

There goes your mixed up chronology. You see, there really is no need to rearrange. It makes perfect sense as written.

Question: Can "tribulation" be any greater if one is martyred? They cannot be martyred twice! for those in recent years that have been beheaded, their tribulation was very great indeed.  I think most of them had a choice: become a Muslim or lose their head. They make the right choice! Their days of tribulation was over the moment they were slain.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

I guess I am not a typical pretribber. I think only Paul and the book of Revelation gives us the real timing of the rapture.  

Really? What about this? You love chronological passages so the one below from Matt 24 should stick out like a sore thumb. Jesus is not only giving us the outline of the entire Revelation, He is giving us a few crucial details that we do not see in the last book. The end of the age passages in Matt 24 set the entire context and chronological order of Revelation and to ignore it is to miss a great deal of truth.

⁶ And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

⁷ For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

⁸ All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Verse 6-8 above is the beginning of the week. It is mentioned as directly preceding the A of D below. The "beginning of sorrows" is the first half of the week and mirrors at least 2 seals; peace taken from the earth and death, but does not seem to speak to the AC (1st seal) nor the 3rd seal (economic control, not economic collapse and a cashless society). As an aside, when the seals are opened the effects continue all through the last week. Sweeping changes are released and continue to the end. Is that too abstract? Can't be helped, the seals represent great changes in world conditions the likes of which we have not seen. Now the midpoint as foretold by Daniel:

¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Absolutely unequivocal. The first half of the week occurs before this. Remember what the disciples queried of Jesus? "3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world" Now, everything that comes after is the end of the age. Since there is a defined midpoint, the A of D of Daniel, there is also something comes before; namely the "beginning of sorrows", so named by Christ, identified as the first half of the week. And I know I don't need to mention that Daniel spoke of a full week, or a 7 year period, so it stands up to logic there must be a first half and a second half.

²¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

²² And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Only after the A of D can "great tribulation" occur. Notice the language that denotes succession; "For then shall be..." It's very simple," When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation...then shall be great tribulation,". Not before.  Great tribulation begins at the midpoint. 

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Some unspecified time period later, but "immediately after the tribulation of those days", the days following the A of D, the sign of the coming of the Son of man appears. So far the order is, as spoken by the same Jesus who is the entire bible, and gave John the Revelation, beginning of sorrows, A of D, and then the Sign of the Son of man. In that immutable order and none other.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The above event occurs in conjunction with Jesus coming in the clouds with power and glory in the sight of everyone. The gathering of the elect only happens here, after the beginning of sorrows, the A of D, great tribulation, and the Signs of Jesus coming. If you could find scripture as detailed and concise as the above for a pretrib gathering I would believe it. But you cannot. These verses not only fully refute a pretrib "rapture"(stupid, meaningless term in my opinion) but they set the order of the Revelation and solves any timing issues with the gathering and the day of the Lord.

 

After all, it was a mystery before Paul wrote about it. And if we study 1 Thes. 4 & 5,  Paul tells us the timing. His coming will be the trigger for the dead in Christ rising, and the dead in Christ rising will be the trigger for the start of the Day.

Unless you can post the specific verses that speak to timing your claim is weak.  The true timing is found in 2 Thess 2.

A split second after the dead have been raised, Paul shows us that two groups of people get two different results: those living in the light of the gospel get "salvation" and get to "live together with him." ("So shall we ever be with the Lord.") At the same moment in time, those living in darkness suffer "sudden destruction" and they cannot escape. Why? Because the ONLY escape will be via rapture.  Sure, after the A of D, Matt 24 and 2 Thess 2, I agree.

What is Paul's "sudden destruction?" When the dead in Christ are raised, it will cause a worldwide earthquake, for the dead in Christ will be found around the world. So Paul tells us the timing of the rapture: it will come a moment before the great earthquake (Paul's sudden destruction) of the 6th seal.

Objection. Speculation.

Just so you know, the 6th seal comes before the start of the 70th week or "trib" which will start at the 7th seal. It was no mistake then, that John SAW the raptured church IN HEAVEN in chapter 7.

Speculation again. Except for the church in heaven in Ch 7. Lets look.

Rev 7

¹³ And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

¹⁴ And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Yes, the church is in heaven, after coming out of "great tribulation". Pretrib falls again. As well as the strict chronological idea you promote. How can the trib start at the 7th seal when the Church is in heaven, from out of great tribulation, before the 7th seal is opened? Methinks your own words betray you. And not only this but what about the 5th seal? The 5th seal tells of the persecution of the elect, the church:

Rev 7

⁹ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

¹⁰ And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

¹¹ And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This group can be none other than the church. Brethren and fellow servants slain for the Word and their testimony. These are the believers, the church, the elect of God. Since this is true great tribulation must start at the 5th seal, making the 5th seal the midpoint. But that cannot be, can it? If it is, your entire timeline is off.

 

"Verse 6-8 above is the beginning of the week. "  Sorry, but you are mistaken. When Jesus said "The end is not yet" Then He is not talking about end time things, but rather still talking about the church age.  We are living "the beginning of sorrows" today. Jesus does not get end times until verses 13 & 14. From there, He jumps straight to the midpoint abomination and skips right over the first 3 1/2 years.  Have we had wars and rumors of wars? Of course. Have we had "famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places? Of course we have, for these are church age events.

In fact, it DOES speak to the rider with the red horse that brings wars. He and his cronies, the Black horse and rider and the Pale horse and rider, are CHURCH AGE seals So is seal 5. And seal one was opened around 32 AD and cannot possibly be the Antichrist. John used "white" 17 other times, all to represent righteousness. Do you really think the Holy Spirit would use white 17 times for righteousness and once for some kind of evil? Look at chapter 17 and see what color God paints the Beast: FIERY RED!

The black plague (Pestilence) struck Europe twice, each time killing around 1/3 of all.  These things are for the church age.

Of course Jesus does not speak of the AC until verse 15 and the abomination.

Absolutely unequivocal. The first half of the week occurs before this.  Without a doubt you are correct: the first half of the week will certainly come before the midpoint of the week. On this we agree.

it stands up to logic there must be a first half and a second half.  There certainly will be two halves, but Jesus jumps right over the first half. AFter all, He had 2000 + 7 years to cover in a few verses.

Only after the A of D can "great tribulation" occur. Notice the language that denotes succession; "For then shall be..." It's very simple," When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation...then shall be great tribulation,". Not before.  Great tribulation begins at the midpoint.   I agree with your point, but not the way you wrote it. The days of GT that JESUS spoke of most certainly can come ONLY after the midpoint. But my point is, there are OTHER times where "great tribulation" fits. Just not those days Jesus spoke of.  When the rapture takes place, it will be GT around the world, as in people dying for their testimony. but it is NOT the days of GT that Jesus spoke of.

beginning of sorrows, A of D, and then the Sign of the Son of man. In that immutable order and none other.  I agree, except the "beginning of sorrows" is not speaking of the end. We are IN these beginning of sorrows.  But certainly The signs in the sun and moon that Jesus spoke of will come very late in the week. I would say in Revelation 15, If John had seen them. He did not, so did not write about them.

The gathering of the elect only happens here, after the beginning of sorrows, the A of D, great tribulation, and the Signs of Jesus coming.  I agree, but it is NOT Paul's rapture. This is a different gathering. It gathers from both heaven and earth. Paul's rapture will gather from earth. You know, those UNDER the earth as in dead in Christ, and those alive in in Christ. My guess is, this will be God gathering all of Israel back to the land of Israel.

These verses not only fully refute a pretrib  They WOULD if indeed this gathering was the rapture. Millions believe it is not. It does not fit what Paul wrote about His gathering.  But I will say you have laid out a good argument for a posttribber. It is just not the truth of scripture. Again I will say, ONLY PAUL wrote of the rapture, but John saw the just raptured church in heaven.

Unless you can post the specific verses that speak to timing your claim is weak.  The true timing is found in 2 Thess 2  Of course I can! That is why I believe pretrib! STudy 1 Thes 4 & 5. And I agree with your statement about 2 Thes. 2 also, but I see it totally differently that you do. What Paul meant by "apostasisa" is the departing - that is, the departing of the church. If you wish to pursue this: ask yourself a question: in verse 3b, is the man of sin revealed in Paul's argument?

Objection. Speculation.  No, revealed to be by the Holy Spirit. Did you ever meditate on Matthew 27 where he wrote, "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened?" Why is it when graves are opened as in resurrection, there is a corresponding earthquake? We see it again when the two witnesses are resurrected. 

Speculation again. Except for the church in heaven in Ch 7. Lets look.  No, again revealed by the Holy Spirit, He sent me first to find the midpoint "clearly marked." (His words) Then to find the entire 70th week "clearly marked." The week is marked by the 7's.

the church is in heaven, after coming out of "great tribulation". Pretrib falls again  Not at all! You have a "fixation" whenever you see these two words together, "great" and "tribulation." Remember, these two words were NOT ENOUGH for Jesus, He went on to say they will be greater than any other time on the earth.  And don't forget, John used these two words together speaking to one of the churches. Pretrib still stands, based on a good exegesis of the Word.

How can the trib start at the 7th seal when the Church is in heaven, from out of great tribulation, before the 7th seal is opened? Methinks your own words betray you.  Not at all! Your problem is your definition of "great tribulation." it seems whenever you see these words, you think the last half of the week and the days of GT that Jesus spoke of. My friend, there are OTHER great tribulations. For example, the part of the Body of Christ that used to live in Egypt. they are almost gone. Believers have been martyred probably faster than at any other time in History, because now it is taking place in at least half the world. I am smart enough to know, people cannot from from days that don't exist yet! The Holy Spirit knows this too. It does not have to mean Revelation is out of order. How can tribulation be any greater for someone who just lost their head because they would not become a Muslim?

This group can be none other than the church.  No again! How can be be so far off in almost every point? This is the MARTYRS of the church age, so a very small part of the church or the Body of Christ on earth. I am convinced Stephen was in that group.

You totally miss the truth that Jesus GAVE US the timing of the first seals: 32 AD when He ascended. The 5th seal was opened way back then, to cover the early martyrs, like STephen and those Saul had killed.

 

YOu see, there is a very different way of looking at all of these scriptures.