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Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position


George

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17 hours ago, hmbld said:

 I do appreciate you objective posts Mega, I just had to call you out on "normal understanding"  What does that even mean lol?  If I disagree with you, I have not normal understanding?  

1 Bananas are a fruit, bananas are yellow, therefore, all fruit are yellow

2 Hysterical comes from the Greek word hustera, meaning uterus. Since only women (and not men) have a uterus, only women can be hysterical.

3 More than 99% of people who reach the age of 90, eventually die. Similarly, 100% of people who reach the age of 90, have breathed a gas, containing oxygen, at some point in their lives. Therefore, it is reasonable to suppose, that Oxygen might be a probably cause of death.

4 Tires on cars, often fail due to punctures through the tread area. Nails on the road, are a common source to tire tread punctures. It is likely, that nails on the road, cause some tires to fail.

5. Since it is well known, that many people like ice cream, certainly, zebras are reptiles.

I suggest to you hmbld, that one of those five statements, fits the category of "normal understanding".

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22 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

 

Perhaps, you have not noticed, but there is an entire thread, devoted to the defense of the pre-trib rapture, and many other threads as well, where no one has yet, provided such passages. Why should that still be the case after 14 years?

Hi Omegaman,

Can you tell me when you believe the times of restoration of all things begins?

`God....that He may send Jesus Christ.....whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, of which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.`(Acts 3: 20 & 2) 

regards, Marilyn.

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Quote

Hi Omegaman,

Can you tell me when you believe the times of restoration of all things begins?

`God....that He may send Jesus Christ.....whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, of which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.`(Acts 3: 20 & 2) 

regards, Marilyn.

I do not know Marilyn, I have asked the question myself. I do know Jesus cannot leave Heaven, until that occurs. So, if He can come at any moment, that means it has already occurred. Has anything historical, met that description, in your opinion? 

I would add this though, whatever it is, the time is foretold, presumably in the old testament, since if was foretold by the prophets, since the world began. I suspect then, that whatever that time is, it is likely found, even in the book of Genesis.

You know what one poster said to me once? That technically, as long as Jesus' feet do not touch the ground, then Jesus has not left Heaven ;) 

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18 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Again, this is simply not truth. Every pretrib passage has been written ad infinitum! The problem is, you don't read these scriptures the same way we do. For example, I have written several times now how I read Paul in 1 Thes. 5. I don't think anyone has chosen to comment on it.

I have to laugh a little but just a little. Every pretrib passage? There are none! There are passages brought to bear on the topic, but none are pre-trib except in the mind of the pre-tribber! Sure, I can see where people can find pre-tribism in them, all one has to do is hope it is true, and read into it, what one hopes.

This is a bit like, what Paul said to Timothy what would happen in the last times, that people would gather to themselves, teachers who would tell them what their itching ears, want to hear. Pre-tribism sounds lovely, and no one thinks post-tribism tickles the ears. Post-tribism has been around since at least the church fathers, pretribism basically, unheard of until the early 1800s, and not popular in the church until the 1900s.

A lot of premies, do not like this fact, and try to read into early documents, the same wishful thinking they bring to the scriptures. However, that is neither here nor there. The fact that post-tribism is a historical doctrine (if speculative eschatology can be called a doctrine) from the beginning, with expression in the later Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant traditions, and even in the cults like Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses, does not make it right.

Why would I bring up the cults for support? Well, they are not authoritative for sure, just as the Church fathers and the reformers are not authoritative. However, they have not been influenced by Darbyism since they did not stay in traditional churches, and stay with their new doctrines, nor go to Christian seminaries, where the Scofield reference Bible was used, with the notes being used promoting Darbyism. This is how pre-tribism became a part of accepted Christian doctrine. Well, Cyrus Scofield is also not authoritative, nor was his predecessor, John Darby!

So, sticking with the Bible itself. You said:

"I have written several times now how I read Paul in 1 Thes. 5. I don't think anyone has chosen to comment on it."

Well, if you point me to your favorite post on 1 Thess 5, I would be happy to comment on it. Until then, I will comment on the passage itself in part, here right now, at least the first paragraph.

1Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 7For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.11Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.

1 Thess 5:1-11, verse by verse

Vs 1 Paul sets up the topic of the following passage, the times of the end, and reminds them that they have already been instructed in this.

Vs 2 Specifically, the events of the Day of the Lord, and he uses thief in the night analogy, one that is repeated in scripture. Paul says that the Day of the Lord, will come as a thief in the night. Thieves so not announce their coming, they come in secret. Perhaps, this is why many pre-tribulation rapture eschatologists, believe in in a secret coming of Jesus, that is nowhere stated in scripture. Is the thief in the night analogy, a reference to a coming that will catch up the church, suddenly and unannounced? Let's look at the next verse.

Vs 3 While THEY are saying "peace and safety", THEN destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains, and THEY will not escape.

Okay, let's note a couple of thing. One, Paul has begun to establish that there are two separate groups of people that he is speaking about. Here, he refers to them as "THEY". Second, note also, and when this event comes suddenly, it says THEN their destruction comes. If this thief in the night analogy, refers to the sudden coming of the Lord to catch up His church, then it follows that the group described as THEY, are destroyed at that time, not in the period of the tribulation nor after it. Therefore, this passage does not support a pre-trib rapture as most pre-tribbers describe it.

VS 4 Paul continues with his two groups of people scenario. "But YOU brethren . . . " Note the distinction between "THEY, and "YOU", and notice that for the "you" group, things are different. How so? The brethren will not be overtaken like a thief, or like the suddenness of birth pains, because the you, us, we group, is not in darkness.

VS 5 The sons of light and sons of day, are not in darkness, so . . . 

VS 6 let US be sober and alert

How would that be contrasted with the other group, sober, versus drunk, alert, versus asleep, as Paul will emphasise nest.

VS 7 those who sleep, sleep and night, and the drunk, get drunk at night. Again, that refers to one group, THOSE who sleep, those of the darkness.

VS 8  "WE"  are of the day, sober, equipped for battle with breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet, the hope of salvation.

Now, I would point out, that this second group, the believers, have a hope of SALVATION. I point this out, because it is also, part of the context, as we will see in a moment. WE have a hope of salvation, THEY do not.

Now, there comes next a word that we should pay attention to, that word is "for".

VS 9 For God has not destined us for wrath . . . 

I break the verse there, so that you can note the connection to what follows. Since this verse begins with "for", it is connected with what went before it, the fact that this group, and a hope of salvation, which Paul is going to connect again:

For God has not destined us for wrath . . . BUT for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

Paul has continued to make this passage about contrasts, unbelievers, and believers, and now the two destinies of them, one group destined for wrath, the other for salvation.

In light of this, in light of the context. Would it not make sense, to view this wrath mentioned, not as the tribulation and some pre-tribbers try to make it, but as the wrath of God that is the alternative to His salvation in Christ? Clearly, Christians have and do, suffer, even to the point of death, by persecution by those guided by evil.

2 Tim 3:12 says:

Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. That is a sobering statement. I do not like it! However, it is what the Bible says. None of my versions say:

"Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, except for a select group of Christians before the tribulation."

So, since it is within the will of God, to allow His church to suffer, since we are called, to take up our cross daily, since we are told, that in suffering for Him there is reward, and since we are sold that to be persecuted, is a blessing, and since we are told that through trials, we are perfected . . . why are we so quick to embrace an eschatology of escape from reward and blessing? Just something to ponder. 

Let's review the contrasts again:

 

them

us

in the darkness

in the light

lulled into sense of security

not said of us

surprised as by a thief in the night

not surprised

surprised as by sudden labor

not surprised

drunk and sleepy

sober and aware

unarmed

armed with faith and hope of salvation

destined for wrath

not destined for wrath

not destined for salvation

destined for salvation

 

 

Okay, now to finish the commentary on the passage:

VS 10 (Jesus) who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Now that one is interesting, theoretically can be seen a couple of ways. Paul has been describing two groups, and two outcomes. In this passage, he describes those who sleep, and those who are awake. It would be easy for some, to assume that Paul is continuing  the separation of these same two groups, in this verse. I do not think that is the case though. Here, I believe that he is talking of two groups, yes, but the focus has shifted.

Here, the two groups are those who are asleep, but these sleepers are in the normally wakeful group. In other words here, Paul says "whether WE are awake or asleep", so the sleeping ones are part of the "we group", those who will be with Him (Jesus). These are Christians, who have left the living, and are asleep at the coming of the Lord. Thus, Christians whether they are dead at the Lord's coming, or alive at the time, will be together with Him in His salvation. Paul further addresses this to the Thessalonians, in another passage.

and finally:

VS 10 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.

and so, I will conclude this post on that thought iamlamad . . . 

I encourage you, as a fellow believer in Christ, to continue in your efforts to build me and the rest of our brethren (and sistren), and I shall do the same. We come down differently on eschatological beliefs, but we also know, the One, in Whom we have salvation. Persevere in the faith, and in your studies of His word.

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3 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I have to laugh a little but just a little. Every pretrib passage? There are none! There are passages brought to bear on the topic, but none are pre-trib except in the mind of the pre-tribber! Sure, I can see where people can find pre-tribism in them, all one has to do is hope it is true, and read into it, what one hopes.

This is a bit like, what Paul said to Timothy what would happen in the last times, that people would gather to themselves, teachers who would tell them what their itching ears, want to hear. Pre-tribism sounds lovely, and no one thinks post-tribism tickles the ears. Post-tribism has been around since at least the church fathers, pretribism basically, unheard of until the early 1800s, and not popular in the church until the 1900s.

A lot of premies, do not like this fact, and try to read into early documents, the same wishful thinking they bring to the scriptures. However, that is neither here nor there. The fact that post-tribism is a historical doctrine (if speculative eschatology can be called a doctrine) from the beginning, with expression in the later Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant traditions, and even in the cults like Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses, does not make it right.

Why would I bring up the cults for support? Well, they are not authoritative for sure, just as the Church fathers and the reformers are not authoritative. However, they have not been influenced by Darbyism since they did not stay in traditional churches, and stay with their new doctrines, nor go to Christian seminaries, where the Scofield reference Bible was used, with the notes being used promoting Darbyism. This is how pre-tribism became a part of accepted Christian doctrine. Well, Cyrus Scofield is also not authoritative, nor was his predecessor, John Darby!

So, sticking with the Bible itself. You said:

"I have written several times now how I read Paul in 1 Thes. 5. I don't think anyone has chosen to comment on it."

Well, if you point me to your favorite post on 1 Thess 5, I would be happy to comment on it. Until then, I will comment on the passage itself in part, here right now, at least the first paragraph.

1Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 7For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.11Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.

1 Thess 5:1-11, verse by verse

Vs 1 Paul sets up the topic of the following passage, the times of the end, and reminds them that they have already been instructed in this.

Vs 2 Specifically, the events of the Day of the Lord, and he uses thief in the night analogy, one that is repeated in scripture. Paul says that the Day of the Lord, will come as a thief in the night. Thieves so not announce their coming, they come in secret. Perhaps, this is why many pre-tribulation rapture eschatologists, believe in in a secret coming of Jesus, that is nowhere stated in scripture. Is the thief in the night analogy, a reference to a coming that will catch up the church, suddenly and unannounced? Let's look at the next verse.

Vs 3 While THEY are saying "peace and safety", THEN destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains, and THEY will not escape.

Okay, let's note a couple of thing. One, Paul has begun to establish that there are two separate groups of people that he is speaking about. Here, he refers to them as "THEY". Second, note also, and when this event comes suddenly, it says THEN their destruction comes. If this thief in the night analogy, refers to the sudden coming of the Lord to catch up His church, then it follows that the group described as THEY, are destroyed at that time, not in the period of the tribulation nor after it. Therefore, this passage does not support a pre-trib rapture as most pre-tribbers describe it.

VS 4 Paul continues with his two groups of people scenario. "But YOU brethren . . . " Note the distinction between "THEY, and "YOU", and notice that for the "you" group, things are different. How so? The brethren will not be overtaken like a thief, or like the suddenness of birth pains, because the you, us, we group, is not in darkness.

VS 5 The sons of light and sons of day, are not in darkness, so . . . 

VS 6 let US be sober and alert

How would that be contrasted with the other group, sober, versus drunk, alert, versus asleep, as Paul will emphasise nest.

VS 7 those who sleep, sleep and night, and the drunk, get drunk at night. Again, that refers to one group, THOSE who sleep, those of the darkness.

VS 8  "WE"  are of the day, sober, equipped for battle with breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet, the hope of salvation.

Now, I would point out, that this second group, the believers, have a hope of SALVATION. I point this out, because it is also, part of the context, as we will see in a moment. WE have a hope of salvation, THEY do not.

Now, there comes next a word that we should pay attention to, that word is "for".

VS 9 For God has not destined us for wrath . . . 

I break the verse there, so that you can note the connection to what follows. Since this verse begins with "for", it is connected with what went before it, the fact that this group, and a hope of salvation, which Paul is going to connect again:

For God has not destined us for wrath . . . BUT for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

Paul has continued to make this passage about contrasts, unbelievers, and believers, and now the two destinies of them, one group destined for wrath, the other for salvation.

In light of this, in light of the context. Would it not make sense, to view this wrath mentioned, not as the tribulation and some pre-tribbers try to make it, but as the wrath of God that is the alternative to His salvation in Christ? Clearly, Christians have and do, suffer, even to the point of death, by persecution by those guided by evil.

2 Tim 3:12 says:

Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. That is a sobering statement. I do not like it! However, it is what the Bible says. None of my versions say:

"Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, except for a select group of Christians before the tribulation."

So, since it is within the will of God, to allow His church to suffer, since we are called, to take up our cross daily, since we are told, that in suffering for Him there is reward, and since we are sold that to be persecuted, is a blessing, and since we are told that through trials, we are perfected . . . why are we so quick to embrace an eschatology of escape from reward and blessing? Just something to ponder. 

Let's review the contrasts again:

 

them

us

in the darkness

in the light

lulled into sense of security

not said of us

surprised as by a thief in the night

not surprised

surprised as by sudden labor

not surprised

drunk and sleepy

sober and aware

unarmed

armed with faith and hope of salvation

destined for wrath

not destined for wrath

not destined for salvation

destined for salvation

 

 

Okay, now to finish the commentary on the passage:

VS 10 (Jesus) who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Now that one is interesting, theoretically can be seen a couple of ways. Paul has been describing two groups, and two outcomes. In this passage, he describes those who sleep, and those who are awake. It would be easy for some, to assume that Paul is continuing  the separation of these same two groups, in this verse. I do not think that is the case though. Here, I believe that he is talking of two groups, yes, but the focus has shifted.

Here, the two groups are those who are asleep, but these sleepers are in the normally wakeful group. In other words here, Paul says "whether WE are awake or asleep", so the sleeping ones are part of the "we group", those who will be with Him (Jesus). These are Christians, who have left the living, and are asleep at the coming of the Lord. Thus, Christians whether they are dead at the Lord's coming, or alive at the time, will be together with Him in His salvation. Paul further addresses this to the Thessalonians, in another passage.

and finally:

VS 10 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.

and so, I will conclude this post on that thought iamlamad . . . 

I encourage you, as a fellow believer in Christ, to continue in your efforts to build me and the rest of our brethren (and sistren), and I shall do the same. We come down differently on eschatological beliefs, but we also know, the One, in Whom we have salvation. Persevere in the faith, and in your studies of His word.

Paul tells us there is SUDDENLY coming ("sudden destruction") "like a thief in the night: NO ONE knows when a thief will come. What will this sudden event be? It will be His coming to the air and the dead in Christ rising. It will come with no warning whatsoever - on a day quite like today - like on the day it began to rain in Noah's day.

So the dead in Christ rise. They were buried around the world. This rising of the dead will cause a terrific worldwide earthquake (Matt 27: "the earth did quake....and the graves were opened"). This earthquake will be Paul's "sudden destruction." It will also be the great earthquake at the 6th seal.

Now, a spit second after this earthquake, two groups of people on earth, will get two different results. Those living in Christ will get "salvation" (raptured) and get "to live together with Him" or "so shall we ever be with the Lord." Those living in Christ will be caught up as the earthquake begins, so they get saved from that "sudden destruction."

At the same, those living in the darkness will not be caught up, so they will suffer the "sudden destruction" earthquake. In Rev. 6. John tells us that earthquake at the 6th seal is "the day of His wrath Has come." Paul calls it "the day of the Lord."  Then Paul goes on to say that God will set no appointment for us with His wrath. We get caught up, but they get His wrath.  Make no mistake here: that "sudden destruction" earthquake is the start of God's wrath. It is the start of the Day of His wrath.

What else does Paul say about His wrath?  "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him," and " to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." His wrath will come, but those in Christ will get delivered from it by way of the rapture.

For those living in darkness: " For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience." So the disobedient get wrath, while those living in Christ get "salvation" and get to "live together with Him."

So HOW is Paul giving us timing? He is telling us that HIS rapture will come just before the start of the Day of the Lord, and as the trigger for that Day. In Revelation it will be a moment before the 6th seal Day of His wrath earthquake. So this is NOT the Rev. 19 coming where Jesus will come WITH His church. It is a coming just before the 6th seal.

However, God loves to give us more hints as to timing: God allowed John to see the raptured church in heaven right after this 6th seal earthquake. In chapter 7 John saw the church in the throne room of heaven, having come out of great tribulation - NOT the days of GT that Jesus spoke of, for John has not yet even started the 70th week or "trib" as some call it. John is only telling us that at the time of the rapture, people will be being put to death for their faith around the world. It is that way in half the world now, and it will get worse.

But God shows us three witnesses to the truth: in Revelation 19, the church, the bride of Christ, is ALREADY IN HEAVEN when it is time for the Marriage and Supper, which will take place in heaven, before Jesus comes with the Church back to earth.

By the way, posttribbers have NEVER successfully figured out how to get the Bride of Christ into heaven for this marriage in their end time scenario. So they just rearrange John's God given chronology and put the rapture in the air or on the earth. Sorry, but that simply does not fit.

Now, don't choke on your laugh! Paul was pretrib and so is God! I am chuckling at those who imagine the Matthew 24 gathering is talking about Paul's rapture! The gathering of the Olivet discourse gathers some from heaven! Paul's rapture gathers from earth!

Edited by iamlamad
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4 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I have to laugh a little but just a little. Every pretrib passage? There are none!

There is "the rub" as they say.

 

Post trib - "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect" -- Matthew 24

 

So we HAVE the text for post-trib. And nothing of the sort for pre-trib. And yet the pre-trib argument tries out endless arguments to dismiss the text that actually tells us it is post-trib will injecting massive 'proof-by-inference' everywhere else it can to try to inject pre-trib into the Bible.

Even in Revelation - the "FIRST resurrection" Rev 20:4-5 is at the Rev 19 SECOND COMING event. And "the dead in Christ rise FIRST" 1 Thess 4 ... it is they alone who are the "blessed and holy" in Rev 20:4-5 FIRST resurrection "over THESE the 2nd death has no power".

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15 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

 

I do not know Marilyn, I have asked the question myself. I do know Jesus cannot leave Heaven, until that occurs. So, if He can come at any moment, that means it has already occurred. Has anything historical, met that description, in your opinion? 

I would add this though, whatever it is, the time is foretold, presumably in the old testament, since if was foretold by the prophets, since the world began. I suspect then, that whatever that time is, it is likely found, even in the book of Genesis.

You know what one poster said to me once? That technically, as long as Jesus' feet do not touch the ground, then Jesus has not left Heaven ;) 

Hi Omegaman,

Thank you for your honest response. I would like to share what I believe concerning that time, as the prophets foretold. Will I do it here? As far as `technically` not left heaven, (as that person said) I would say that only refers to the atmospheric heavens or the universal heavens. God`s word is very specific. Coming to the clouds is, as we well know in the atmospheric heavens.

So will I post here or in the pre-trib section, as our discussion might develop?

regards, Marilyn.

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21 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

So will I post here or in the pre-trib section, as our discussion might develop?

regards, Marilyn.

Hmm, if you think that what you plan to post, is defensive to the pre-tribulation position, maybe the pre-trib section would be more appropriate. If you so so, send me a link or notification to that, so that I will be sure to read it! Thanks!

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On 6/11/2017 at 8:42 AM, BobRyan said:

There is "the rub" as they say.

 

Post trib - "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect" -- Matthew 24

 

So we HAVE the text for post-trib. And nothing of the sort for pre-trib. And yet the pre-trib argument tries out endless arguments to dismiss the text that actually tells us it is post-trib will injecting massive 'proof-by-inference' everywhere else it can to try to inject pre-trib into the Bible.

Even in Revelation - the "FIRST resurrection" Rev 20:4-5 is at the Rev 19 SECOND COMING event. And "the dead in Christ rise FIRST" 1 Thess 4 ... it is they alone who are the "blessed and holy" in Rev 20:4-5 FIRST resurrection "over THESE the 2nd death has no power".

So you think you have got it nailed! You have another think coming! OF COURSE that gathering is after the trib of those days - but you have not and never will prove this gathering is Paul's gathering.  And your scenario simply does not fit the marriage and supper in Revelation.

Sorry, but your theory on "first" is also in error. Jesus was part of that "first" resurrection. It is for all the righteous. The second resurrection is called "the second death." So can you find another resurrection somewhere? God has only given us TWO.

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17 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

So you think you have got it nailed! You have another think coming! OF COURSE that gathering is after the trib of those days - but you have not and never will prove this gathering is Paul's gathering.  [/quote]

 

That is not the way exegesis works. Exegesis demands that we look at how the subject is built up by other writers instead of "start over with each writer"

 

17 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

 

And your scenario simply does not fit the marriage and supper in Revelation.

 

On the Contrary in Rev 19 we have church ready (the harvest is ripe as Rev 14 says) and is reaped (saints rapture) then the wicked are destroyed - earth wiped out. Saint's raptured to heaven with Christ - and nothing here abut a desolate earth. As the OT states "I looked and behold - there was no man".

 

 

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