Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[ARGOSY]

On 7/5/2017 at 0:27 AM, iamlamad said:

Their biggest error was not knowing that the 70th week of Daniel will not start until the 7th seal. 

It astounds me how easily many misinterpret the bible,  if they fail to see the second coming here at the 6th seal:

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; ¹³ and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. ¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. ¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; ¹⁶ and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: ¹⁷ for the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Edited July 13, 2017 by ARGOSY

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

It astounds me how easily many misinterpret the bible,  if they fail to see the second coming here at the 6th seal:

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; ¹³ and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. ¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. ¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; ¹⁶ and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: ¹⁷ for the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Readers, help him out here: does ANYONE find the word "coming" here?

All I see is that this is the start of the Day of the Lord. Sorry, this is where God's wrath begins: NO COMING here. Compare with Rev. 19 that shows His coming, or 1 Thes. 4 which mentions His coming.

[iamlamad]

Sorry, Bob, quoted the wrong post.

Edited July 13, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

On 7/7/2017 at 6:00 PM, Diaste said:

 

Great tribulation only begins after the A of D at the midpoint. The midpoint is the sign great tribulation is about to begin.

This much is truth.

 

On 7/7/2017 at 6:00 PM, Diaste said:

The midpoint is the sign great tribulation is about to begin. At the 5th seal we see the results of the great tribulation, shown in the 4th seal, so the midpoint occurs before the fifth seal, meaning the 70th week has been underway for 3.5 years already.  The contention the 70th week begins at the 7th seal is provably false.

This is utter nonsense.  Jesus told those in Judea to flee the moment they see the abomination. Where do we see them beginning to flee? In 12:6. Therefore 12:6 will be a second or two (reaction time) after the abomination. If we back up and look for any real-time  event, the first thing we find is the 7th trumpet. This trumpet will sound in heaven marking the moment the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is god.

The first seal is to represent the gospel sent out. The red horse and rider, the black horse and rider, and the pale horse and rider ride together. They are to represent the attempts of the devil to stop the advance of the gospel. It is very simple.

The 5th seal is the martyrs for the church age. Why do people wish to rush through this book? They forget that 2000 years have taken place. The 70th week martyrs will not need to ask "how long." They will KNOW they have only to wait for the end of 7 years.  However, Stephen and the other early martyrs had no idea how long the church age would go.

[iamlamad]

On 6/17/2017 at 6:34 PM, BobRyan said:

Nothing in Revelation says the group in Rev 7 -- is larger than the group in Rev 14. They are the same group.

 In the second group it is written that they are TO MANY to number. That is the group I was writing of. In Rev. 15 we see those that were beheaded in heaven. John does not give a number. Therefore I can only guess the group too large to number is a larger group. Since John does not say, we just don't know.  However, the rapture of the church will include both the martyrs and those alive and in Christ (up to that point in time). Considering the generations past of the church, it will be an enormous number. I cannot even imagine that those beheaded (chapter 15) would be a larger group.

 

On 6/17/2017 at 6:34 PM, BobRyan said:

Rev 19 says nothing at all about "Saints already rapture and in their resurrected bodies" you are "quoting you" again to make your point. Quote the text to show what the text says.

Agreed. John does not tell us in chapter 19.  But they arrived as the group too large to number, way back in chapter 7. Of course if people don't see that as the raptured church, they would argue that those seen in Rev. 19 are the raptured church. However, for further proof, John shows us the marriage and supper in heaven. The church will not miss this wedding and supper. They will be in heaven for that event. So will the Old Testament saints.

 

On 6/17/2017 at 6:34 PM, BobRyan said:

The saints await for their master to return from the marriage supper. Luke 12:36

Bible details matter. As I am sure we both agree.

Of course the Jews that MISSED the rapture and survive up to His coming will be awaiting their master who will indeed be returning from the supper. The church will be coming down with Him.

[fixerupper]

On 7/7/2017 at 7:00 PM, Diaste said:

It's no wonder you are misinformed, relying on mankind to interpret bible prophecy. 

But lets suppose the great tribulation is synonymous with the 70th week. And while we are at it, lets suppose Jesus comes three times. And lets suppose there is a huge group of people that are so perfect in all their ways, fully righteous and have not sinned, robes already washed and no spot or blemish is found on them, that are simply snatched from the earth.

What you've described really aren't suppositions.  They are the reason for the tribulation.  It's kind of like a God ordained purification process.

Quote

Great tribulation only begins after the A of D at the midpoint. The midpoint is the sign great tribulation is about to begin. At the 5th seal we see the results of the great tribulation, shown in the 4th seal, so the midpoint occurs before the fifth seal, meaning the 70th week has been underway for 3.5 years already.  The contention the 70th week begins at the 7th seal is provably false.

I may be wrong but as of now I don't accept Daniel's 70th week.  

I say the seals were meant for our benefit and we should recognize them as they open and pass.  The opening of a seal is a disclosure of a secret.  That's their purpose.  They are "authenticated and no longer a secret" when they pass.  They aren't something that opened thousands of years ago and progressed up to today.  They are complete end-time symbols.    

SEAL...

"literal, a "seal" on a book or roll, combining with the ideas of security and destination those of secrecy and postponement of disclosures,"

Just so you know...

The first seal is HOLY WAR.

The second seal is Saddam and Iraq.

We're currently in the third seal which is ISIS.

The fourth seal is next...

And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

I believe that fourth part of the earth is the Mid-east region.  

The words "to kill with sword, hunger, death and beast," are literal.  I say they are all Islamic because Islam is the only religion capable of bringing this to pass.  ISIL has been known to behead children in front of their parents who wouldn't convert.  Honor killings are also an abomination.

To kill with hunger...

Starving people to death by withholding food is a old weapon.  Today it's used by Muslims in several countries especially in Northern Africa.

To kill with sword,

The sword is Islam's favorite weapon and beheading is the preferred method of persecution in the book of Revelation. I've seen some horiffic videos through the Clarion Project. Muslim's cut the heads off of their own family in honor killings why should we be surprised that ISIS is doing it today?  Even today there are stadiums full of people watching an honor killing in the Islamic world.  

To kill with beast...

This is killing people by throwing them to wild animals like Daniel was.  They will throw people to the lions and dogs and put it on video like they are custom to do.   A video of wild animals in an amphitheater type setting will happen once again in our day.  "Conquering the infidel" is already a televised Islamic form of 21st century entertainment. Maybe they'll just tie up someone in the middle of the wilderness and let the wild animals go at them.  

To kill with death...

This is no doubt suicide bombings or maybe biological terrorism.  Muslim's will sacrifice their own Children in holy war.  ISIL has already blown up the baby of a woman who wouldn't convert ia a training video.  In the devils religion of Islam, the father is often the one who throws the first stone in the honor killing of his own daughter.  

Edited July 14, 2017 by fixerupper

[fixerupper]

34 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

This much is truth.

 

This is utter nonsense.  Jesus told those in Judea to flee the moment they see the abomination. Where do we see them beginning to flee? In 12:6. Therefore 12:6 will be a second or two (reaction time) after the abomination. If we back up and look for any real-time  event, the first thing we find is the 7th trumpet. This trumpet will sound in heaven marking the moment the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is god.

The first seal is to represent the gospel sent out. The red horse and rider, the black horse and rider, and the pale horse and rider ride together. They are to represent the attempts of the devil to stop the advance of the gospel. It is very simple.

The 5th seal is the martyrs for the church age. Why do people wish to rush through this book? They forget that 2000 years have taken place. The 70th week martyrs will not need to ask "how long." They will KNOW they have only to wait for the end of 7 years.  However, Stephen and the other early martyrs had no idea how long the church age would go.

So why is Jesus riding with a bunch of bad guys when he's the one opening the seals?

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, fixerupper said:

What you've described really aren't suppositions.  They are the reason for the tribulation.  It's kind of like a God ordained purification process.

I may be wrong but as of now I don't accept Daniel's 70th week.  

I say the seals were meant for our benefit and we should recognize them as they open and pass.  The opening of a seal is a disclosure of a secret.  That's their purpose.  They are "authenticated and no longer a secret" when they pass.  They aren't something that opened thousands of years ago and progressed up to today.  They are complete end-time symbols.    

SEAL...

"literal, a "seal" on a book or roll, combining with the ideas of security and destination those of secrecy and postponement of disclosures,"

Just so you know...

The first seal is HOLY WAR.

The second seal is Saddam and Iraq.

We're currently in the third seal which is ISIS.

The fourth seal is next...

And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

I believe that fourth part of the earth is the Mid-east region.  

The words "to kill with sword, hunger, death and beast," are literal.  I say they are all Islamic because Islam is the only religion capable of bringing this to pass.  ISIL has been known to behead children in front of their parents who wouldn't convert.  Honor killings are also an abomination.

To kill with hunger...

Starving people to death by withholding food is a old weapon.  Today it's used by Muslims in several countries especially in Northern Africa.

To kill with sword,

The sword is Islam's favorite weapon and beheading is the preferred method of persecution in the book of Revelation. I've seen some horiffic videos through the Clarion Project. Muslim's cut the heads off of their own family in honor killings why should we be surprised that ISIS is doing it today?  Even today there are stadiums full of people watching an honor killing in the Islamic world.  

To kill with beast...

This is killing people by throwing them to wild animals like Daniel was.  They will throw people to the lions and dogs and put it on video like they are custom to do.   A video of wild animals in an amphitheater type setting will happen once again in our day.  "Conquering the infidel" is already a televised Islamic form of 21st century entertainment. Maybe they'll just tie up someone in the middle of the wilderness and let the wild animals go at them.  

To kill with death...

This is no doubt suicide bombings or maybe biological terrorism.  Muslim's will sacrifice their own Children in holy war.  ISIL has already blown up the baby of a woman who wouldn't convert ia a training video.  In the devils religion of Islam, the father is often the one who throws the first stone in the honor killing of his own daughter.  

Of course I don't believe much of this post. The first 5 seals were opened around 32 AD, so must of this theory simply won't fit. What these seals are to represent are the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel, which is the first seal. God limited them  to 1/4 the surface of the earth. We can be sure that 1/4 will be centered on Jerusalem where the gospel began.

Note: the seals were (and two of them still are) sealing a document (the book) from being opened. I am convinced that book that was in the Father's right hand was and is the lease document to earth: apparently an agreement between Adam, God and the devil, or perhaps just God and the devil.  Once all seven seals are opened, then the book can be opened, and then the trumpet and vial judgments can occur.  Thank God, at the 7th trumpet judgment, Satan loses and Jesus wins: the kingdoms of this world are given back to Jesus Christ - the rightful owner.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, fixerupper said:

So why is Jesus riding with a bunch of bad guys when he's the one opening the seals?

Ha ha! Do you see Jesus riding one of these horses? I don't. It is not Jesus, it is the GOSPEL going out. That is what the white horse and rider are to represent. You were right, in a way with "holy war." But the war the church wages is not a physical war, it is spiritual. Everywhere the gospel has advanced, principalities and powers had to be conquered and overcome.

[iamlamad]

On 6/17/2017 at 6:28 PM, BobRyan said:

During the protestant reformation the same argument is made. So why then were people giving their lives for one side of that debate?

So also in the case of the Christian church vs the Jewish-nation-church both of which were established by God.

I agree that "each side sees scripture differently". But there IS such a thing as "exegesis" designed to get rid of fluff - and wishful thinking to help each person see what the Bible actually says.

Matt 24 is very clear - we have a post trib rapture of the saints at the second coming.

People gave their life because the Catholic church caught them and burned them at the stake: I doubt if any volunteered for that.

Matt 24 is clear: there is a gathering, from heaven and earth: CLEARLY not Paul's rapture, which will be gathered only from earth. That is where the bodies were buried and where the alive in Christ are now.