Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[iamlamad]

On 6/17/2017 at 6:10 AM, Diaste said:

It is fair and true. Have you ever heard this, "If it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck."?  Three factual premises precede a factual conclusion. However with some people they will conclude it's really a kitten in a duck suit, because they have special knowledge, see deeper, or have bias, an agenda, or adhere to an ideology. Forget the facts! We have to prove our point! That's the  important thing, they must ignore fact to arrive at an already formulated conclusion. 

And even if apparently wise people have presented a compelling case it does not follow these same people are free from personal agendas or bias while engaging in a great deal of speculation. A fact, "The sky is blue." for instance, is objectively true even if smart thoughtful people claim it's purple. This is what occurs in bible prophecy. A bible prophecy is going to be fulfilled exactly as written and so there is only one correct answer, no matter how many 'wise bible students' advance convincing arguments. 

It's odd to me that anyone is comfortable with the concept, 'seeing the pertinent scriptures differently' as a way to discern the truth of scripture. Of course anyone is allowed to come up with any fact or conclusion that strikes their fancy but this will not lead to objective truth and is nothing more that private interpretation, which Peter condemns in prophetic study.

2 Peter 1

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Among other things, any private interpretation of prophecy negates the work of the Holy Spirit and demeans the holiness of the men of God who received the prophecy initially. Any private interpretation of the written word of prophecy, by those claiming special knowledge through the power the Holy Spirit, means the Spirit must have been wrong in antiquity and is just now getting it correct. Bollocks.

Well said is this:

2 Timothy 4:3

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

 This occurs like a plague in modern times, especially in bible prophecy.

I read every commentary I can find on a subject, and find that even these "experts" disagree on many points. I would like to think they are not pushing some kind of doctrine, but doing their best at good bible exegesis.

It is absolutely true: what someone believes about one end time verse MUST fit with every other end time verse, else the theory they have developed is wrong. This is why we find some many that attempt to rearrange Revelation: as it is written will not fit with their theories.

As for "seeing the pertinent scriptures differently" why do we have so many different denominations today; each one differing in doctrine? Is it not because people read scriptures differently? Take for example, the HUGE differences between the average pentecostal church denomination and the Southern Baptists. Both groups believe Jesus died for our sins and was risen from the dead, but from that point, huge differences. Why? Simply because people are not willing (or don't know how) to wait on God and get HIS thinking behind each verse. 

By the way, the Holy Spirit is still VERY MUCH the teacher, and people still do hear from Him. However, many hear from a different spirit and imagine it is the Holy Spirit. Anything the Holy Spirit says will agree with the written word - that much is certain. However, it may not agree with what someone THINKS the bible teaches. Preconceived glasses can be a terrible thing, preventing people from receiving anything but what they have previously believed.

I have to add this: the first seal does not look like the Beast, does not sound like the beast, does not in any way copy the beast, yet so many imagine the first seal is the Beast. How silly! God colored the beast fiery red!

Edited July 14, 2017 by iamlamad

[fixerupper]

13 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Ha ha! Do you see Jesus riding one of these horses? I don't. It is not Jesus, it is the GOSPEL going out. That is what the white horse and rider are to represent. You were right, in a way with "holy war." But the war the church wages is not a physical war, it is spiritual. Everywhere the gospel has advanced, principalities and powers had to be conquered and overcome.

So who is the HE that sits upon this white horse?  

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

[iamlamad]

Just now, fixerupper said:

So who is the HE that sits upon this white horse?  

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

I doubt if there really is a white horse and rider. I think these horses and riders are to REPRESENT other things. If indeed you need a rider, it is the CHURCH with the gospel. I believe the white horse and rider represent the church with the gospel.  Good question.

[fixerupper]

25 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I read every commentary I can find on a subject, and find that even these "experts" disagree on many points. I would like to think they are not pushing some kind of doctrine, but doing their best at good bible exegesis.

It is absolutely true: what someone believes about one end time verse MUST fit with every other end time verse, else the theory they have developed is wrong. This is why we find some many that attempt to rearrange Revelation: as it is written will not fit with their theories.

As for "seeing the pertinent scriptures differently" why do we have so many different denominations today; each one differing in doctrine? Is it not because people read scriptures differently? Take for example, the HUGE differences between the average pentecostal church denomination and the Southern Baptists. Both groups believe Jesus died for our sins and was risen from the dead, but from that point, huge differences. Why? Simply because people are not willing (or don't know how) to wait on God and get HIS thinking behind each verse. 

By the way, the Holy Spirit is still VERY MUCH the teacher, and people still do hear from Him. However, many hear from a different spirit and imagine it is the Holy Spirit. Anything the Holy Spirit says will agree with the written word - that much is certain. However, it may not agree with what someone THINKS the bible teaches. Preconceived glasses can be a terrible thing, preventing people from receiving anything but what they have previously believed.

The Holy Spirit isn't the only part of good interpretation.  You can pray all you want but if your efforts are amiss, you'll never find truth. Everybody likes to say they have truth because they are enlightened by the holy spirit.  Having the holy Spirit doesn't mean you just read and pray and read commentaries, and mediate and then bang, you have truth.  There is a method to good exegesis.  But you typically disregard good exegesis since you can't even accept the definition of the word ELECT Jesus used in Mathew 24 about the gathering happening AFTER THE TRIBULATION!  Instead you resort to using extensive fabrications, create two raptures and two returns, change the definition of the Day of the Lord, the last trump, etc.  

Edited July 14, 2017 by fixerupper

[fixerupper]

14 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I doubt if there really is a white horse and rider. I think these horses and riders are to REPRESENT other things. If indeed you need a rider, it is the CHURCH with the gospel. I believe the white horse and rider represent the church with the gospel.  Good question.

Really good critical explanation of the text Lamad.  Now that's deep Lamad..."you think these horses and riders represent other things." What do you mean, "If indeed you need a rider?!!"  THERE IS A RIDER!    And there's a horse too!  The horse represents something, and the rider does too!

The word HE is used twice, and Him used once...and that represents the church and the gospel???

With a hermeneutic like that, who needs truth!

Edited July 14, 2017 by fixerupper

[iamlamad]

16 minutes ago, fixerupper said:

Really good critical explanation of the text Lamad.  Now that's deep Lamad..."you think these horses and riders represent other things." What do you mean, "If indeed you need a rider?!!"  THERE IS A RIDER!    And there's a horse too!  The horse represents something, and the rider does too!

The word HE is used twice, and Him used once...and that represents the church and the gospel???

With a hermeneutic like that, who needs truth!

It is a VISION! Do you really think the world will see a beast with 7 heads? I don't! The 7 heads REPRESENT things, just like the horses and riders represent things.

 

Ellicot's commentary:

Is not the vision the reflex of the hopes of early Christian thought? It is the symbol of Christian victory. It was thus their hopes saw Christ: though ascended He went forth in spiritual power conquering.

Pulpit commentary:

On a consideration of the whole of the visions attending the opening of the seals, it seems best to interpret this vision as a symbolic representation of the abstract idea of the Church as a victorious body.

Victorinus, following Matthew 24 in his exposition of the seals, sees in the first seal the Word of the Lord, which is like an arrow

Wordsworth, after St. Augustine, expounds the first seal as the advent of Christ and the Gospel, and the following ones as depicting subsequent troubles of the Church, which are specified.

Gill's commentary:

And I saw, and behold a white horse,.... Representing the ministration of the Gospel in the times of the apostles

Matthew Henry Commentary:
6:1-8 Christ, the Lamb, opens the first seal: observe what appeared. A rider on a white horse. By the going forth of this white horse, a time of peace, or the early progress of the Christian religion, seems to be intended; its going forth in purity, at the time when its heavenly Founder sent his apostles to teach all nations, adding, Lo! I am with you alway, even to the end of the world.

Barnes Notes: Barnes tells us these horses and riders are SYMBOLS. I agree.

As you can see, I am not alone in my thinking.

Edited July 14, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

32 minutes ago, fixerupper said:

The Holy Spirit isn't the only part of good interpretation.  You can pray all you want but if your efforts are amiss, you'll never find truth. Everybody likes to say they have truth because they are enlightened by the holy spirit.  Having the holy Spirit doesn't mean you just read and pray and read commentaries, and mediate and then bang, you have truth.  There is a method to good exegesis.  But you typically disregard good exegesis since you can't even accept the definition of the word ELECT Jesus used in Mathew 24 about the gathering happening AFTER THE TRIBULATION!  Instead you resort to using extensive fabrications, create two raptures and two returns, change the definition of the Day of the Lord, the last trump, etc.  

Your whole theory here is off. OF COURSE I accept what the bible says about elect. The truth is, the saints in both the Old and New Testaments are the "elect." It seems you don't believe this. By the way, I DO believe that gathering is after the tribulation. But it is not the rapture. That is where we disagree. Did you never notice that that gathering gathers from both heaven and earth? Paul's rapture gathers only from the earth. Very simple: this is a DIFFERENT gathering.

You totally miss it again. Yes, certainly on some passages only a quick reading will give the Author's intent. But on passages such as 1 Thes. 5 and 2 thes. 2 it takes much more that a casual reading. The Holy Spirit really is a teacher, but the truth is, most people have no idea HOW to get Him to teach them. This is why we have so many different denominations. The truth is, GOD SPEAKS - He has in the past, He does now, and he will continue for God never changes. However, the sad part is, few believers ever hear Him speak to them. Why is that?

Could it be that none of what you said about me is truth, and you wrote it only because you disagree - imagining that you are right and I am wrong? I have fabricated nothing. I stick very close to God's word. The truth is, Jesus IS coming twice more. You may not believe it now, but you will.

By the way, I did not want to study Revelation. I resisted for a while, but the Holy Spirit persuaded me. When I agreed, I determined to forget everything I ever knew or even thought I knew and came with a clean slate. I was expecting Him to teach me, because I KNEW He was the teacher. My heart was exactly where it should be. I had no preconceived theories and was determined to know ONLY what He taught me. In other words, my efforts were not amiss. I was doing EXACTLY what He wanted me to do. The very fact that He taught me for months proves that.

Just for the readers sake: HOW to get the Holy Spirit to teach?

It is very simple: mediate on a portion of scripture over and over, day and night, day and night, all the while praying in the Holy Spirit according to 1 Cor. 14.  (Most people ignore this chapter) When people really do this, the Holy Spirit always teaches. The big problem? Most believers have no concept of praying in the Holy Spirit - neither do they believe Paul that this means praying in tongues.

Edited July 14, 2017 by iamlamad

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I read every commentary I can find on a subject, and find that even these "experts" disagree on many points. I would like to think they are not pushing some kind of doctrine, but doing their best at good bible exegesis.

if they do disagree then it's likely none are correct or only one. The voice of truth is a lonely voice. 

It is absolutely true: what someone believes about one end time verse MUST fit with every other end time verse, else the theory they have developed is wrong. This is why we find some many that attempt to rearrange Revelation: as it is written will not fit with their theories.

forcing revelation into a mold of world view or personal perception is an error just as glaring, and precludes finding the correct arrangement.

As for "seeing the pertinent scriptures differently" why do we have so many different denominations today; each one differing in doctrine? Is it not because people read scriptures differently?

I agree. But the fact of existence does not make the existence good, right or correct.

Take for example, the HUGE differences between the average pentecostal church denomination and the Southern Baptists. Both groups believe Jesus died for our sins and was risen from the dead, but from that point, huge differences. Why? Simply because people are not willing (or don't know how) to wait on God and get HIS thinking behind each verse. 

By the way, the Holy Spirit is still VERY MUCH the teacher, and people still do hear from Him. However, many hear from a different spirit and imagine it is the Holy Spirit. Anything the Holy Spirit says will agree with the written word - that much is certain. However, it may not agree with what someone THINKS the bible teaches. Preconceived glasses can be a terrible thing, preventing people from receiving anything but what they have previously believed.

I have to add this: the first seal does not look like the Beast, does not sound like the beast, does not in any way copy the beast, yet so many imagine the first seal is the Beast. How silly! God colored the beast fiery red.

since there is no angelic delivery of interpretation for the identity of the first seals in the text, we can only take it on face value. There is a conquering rider on a white horse that is clearly not Jesus. Since revelation is all about the end of the age and the beast dominates this time, it's easy to conclude this rider of crown and bow and white horse is conquering the world during the end of the age. It's not a stretch.

 

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

This much is truth.

 

This is utter nonsense.  Jesus told those in Judea to flee the moment they see the abomination. Where do we see them beginning to flee? In 12:6. Therefore 12:6 will be a second or two (reaction time) after the abomination. If we back up and look for any real-time  event, the first thing we find is the 7th trumpet. This trumpet will sound in heaven marking the moment the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is god.

a strict chronology of revelation does not reveal the truth. The only strict chronology I see concerning the end is in Matt 24. Revelation is not, NOT a strict chronology. If one adheres to such a strict chronology Revelation is thrown out of sync with many passages of the bible, Matt 24 being one. A strict chronology of revelation means the same events have to occur more than once and that is not what the book reveals.

The first seal is to represent the gospel sent out.

you wish. The 1st seal is the appearance of the beast in power after the deadly head wound is healed. Through God's permission and the power of Satan he then goes about to conquer. 

The red horse and rider, the black horse and rider, and the pale horse and rider ride together. They are to represent the attempts of the devil to stop the advance of the gospel. It is very simple.

no. The second rider represents conditions on earth as the beast roams about either consolidating his power or, more likely, defending the pact he made with Israel against the nations opposed to the Jews building the temple. The third is economic control of the world by the beast edict; no buying or selling unless a person has the mark of the beast.  And the fourth is the slaughter of 100s of millions in the wars, persecution, famines, etc. I have no doubt this is an overview of all the death throughout the entire week.

 

Quote

The 5th seal is the martyrs for the church age. Why do people wish to rush through this book? They forget that 2000 years have taken place. The 70th week martyrs will not need to ask "how long." They will KNOW they have only to wait for the end of 7 years.  However, Stephen and the other early martyrs had no idea how long the church age would go.

the logic here is incorrect. The persecution of the elect, Jews and Christians, only begins at the midpoint of the week. There is no 7 year wait. For some it may be only one day. What? Did you think all the 70th week martyrs were killed on the first day of the 70th week? Now that's nonsense. Besides, the ones out of great tribulation are in heaven at the fifth seal, under the altar, meaning tribulation had already begun prior to the 7th seal.

 

[Diaste]

22 hours ago, fixerupper said:

What you've described really aren't suppositions.  They are the reason for the tribulation.  It's kind of like a God ordained purification process.

Yes. But not the way I'm presenting it. The point is: Why is there no mention of this vast group of people that are so pure, so rigidly righteous and blameless they are all gathered from the earth alive before dying, and before 'great tribulation'; when both Enoch and Elijah were mentioned(taken to heaven before death), and the very large group called the 'elect'(both the dead and those left alive) in Matt 24 and 1 Thess 2 are conspicuous? Pretrib cannot answer this. Why? No facts to support this idea. Pretrib contends that almost two billion could be taken off the earth alive to heaven and scripture makes no mention of this, when it does mention the other groups taken to heaven alive.

I may be wrong but as of now I don't accept Daniel's 70th week.  

I say the seals were meant for our benefit and we should recognize them as they open and pass.  The opening of a seal is a disclosure of a secret.  That's their purpose.  They are "authenticated and no longer a secret" when they pass.  They aren't something that opened thousands of years ago and progressed up to today.  They are complete end-time symbols.  

This I think is much closer to the truth than most interpretations I read. The seals are yet to come. As they open we should be ready to discern the effects and consequences. I don't think they 'pass' however.  If a king writes a decree on parchment and places his wax seal using his signet, the decree is not yet in effect until the seal is inspected, broken and the parchment read aloud to the intended audience. Then the decree is now an enduring condition of the realm. If indeed the rider of the 1st seal is the beast(it is), then this seal does not pass until Jesus defeats both the dragon and the beasts.  The 'war' of the second seal is also a condition released on the earth, enduring to the end. The third seal however would be broken only later(perhaps) as this seal looks to me like the condition of economic control(perhaps), and not world wide famine, as some suggest.

SEAL...

"literal, a "seal" on a book or roll, combining with the ideas of security and destination those of secrecy and postponement of disclosures,"

Just so you know...

The first seal is HOLY WAR.

This is the rise of the beast as depicted in the imagery of the seal. The coming beast does not have any power or authority until the dragon empowers him. This only occurs after the deadly head wound is healed. Rev 13. This empowering must happen at the onset of the last week, or opening of the 1st seal if you prefer, so that the beast can confirm the covenant with many and allow the third Temple construction to begin. This must be done before the midpoint as the beast must sit in the Temple of God showing that he is god. 2 Thess 2. He cannot do this before he has the power to stop the opposition to the Temple construction, and there will be opposition.

The second seal is Saddam and Iraq.

Since this is all there is about the 2nd seal: Rev 6 "4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword." I don't see either Saddam or Iraq taking peace from the earth as Saddam is dead and Iraq can't organize itself to defend the land from desert raiders. This seal is an extension of the consequences of the 1st. The beast has risen, empowered, confirming the covenant, defending the rebuilding of the Temple and the land of Israel from the outraged Muslim hordes, therefore, peace taken from the earth; War.

We're currently in the third seal which is ISIS.

This is either widespread famine from the wars of the beast against Muslims or the economic control imposed by the edict of the beast; Rev 13 "17 ...that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."; at the midpoint after he declares himself to be god. In the beginning during the 1st and 2nd seals the actions of the beast after the empowering are going to be focused on Israel and the Temple Mount. Only the actions of the opposition the the Temple construction and the beasts actions defending the covenant and Israel will cause the conflicts to shatter the peace of the earth. A great many Muslims will oppose any Temple construction on the Temple Mount and band together to attempt to stop this blasphemy.

The fourth seal is next...

And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

I believe that fourth part of the earth is the Mid-east region.  

While I agree with the premise that Islam, well, the most radical part, ISIS, is the Iron kingdom and the beast is one of the Islamic leaders, Baghdadi is the best candidate for the beast, I don't think this is restricted to the Mideast, even though the Mideast is the focal point. For example, 1/4 of the earth (people) is 1,750,000,000. Apparently there is around 218,000,000 people in the Mideast. This does not include Jordan, Palestine or Israel, so lets say 300,000,000+. This death of the 4th seal will begin in the Mideast and spread in a great many directions.

The words "to kill with sword, hunger, death and beast," are literal.  Agreed.  I say they are all Islamic because Islam is the only religion capable of bringing this to pass. Totally agree. The iron kingdom is Islamic based and the beast is a Muslim.  ISIL has been known to behead children in front of their parents who wouldn't convert.  Honor killings are also an abomination. Absolutely bestial. How can any one doubt the identity of the beast when ISIS fulfills all the biblical descriptions of the end of the age scourge.

To kill with hunger...

Starving people to death by withholding food is a old weapon.  Today it's used by Muslims in several countries especially in Northern Africa.

To kill with sword,

The sword is Islam's favorite weapon and beheading is the preferred method of persecution in the book of Revelation. I've seen some horiffic videos through the Clarion Project. Muslim's cut the heads off of their own family in honor killings why should we be surprised that ISIS is doing it today?  Even today there are stadiums full of people watching an honor killing in the Islamic world.  

And beheadings will occur in large numbers during 'great tribulation'. Since this is true it's just confirmation that ISIS is the core of the Iron Kingdom.

To kill with beast...

This is killing people by throwing them to wild animals like Daniel was.  They will throw people to the lions and dogs and put it on video like they are custom to do.   A video of wild animals in an amphitheater type setting will happen once again in our day.  "Conquering the infidel" is already a televised Islamic form of 21st century entertainment. Maybe they'll just tie up someone in the middle of the wilderness and let the wild animals go at them.  

To kill with death...

This is no doubt suicide bombings or maybe biological terrorism.  Muslim's will sacrifice their own Children in holy war.  ISIL has already blown up the baby of a woman who wouldn't convert ia a training video.  In the devils religion of Islam, the father is often the one who throws the first stone in the honor killing of his own daughter.  

Again I agree, it is Islam. The actions of this beast are truly terrifying, dreadful, stamping, crushing, terrible and horrifying; exactly as the scripture says.