Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[Diaste]

 

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

The city being trampled, 11:1-2 will be the first of the five events to begin. I believe Personal belief is meaningless in this context. this will happen because the man of sin with his Gentile (Muslim?) armies will enter Jerusalem. After all, he must GET THERE if he is to enter the temple there. It is also my belief that He arrives about 3 days before he will enter the temple and declare he is god. The city will be trampled for 42 months.

No. The beast will be in Jerusalem well before the midpoint. The idea of the midpoint is not the entering of Jerusalem by invading armies, it's the beast sitting in the Temple declaring himself to be God. The beast will come to power at the beginning of the last week to secure the Land of Israel and allow Temple construction. This will be opposed by a great many in the Islamic world and the beast will defend Israel and the covenant. The beast will also be opposed by the two witnesses.

Next, John introduces the two witnesses. It is my believe Personal belief is meaningless in this context. they show up 3 1/2 days before the man of sin enters the temple (the exact midpoint of the week) and they show up then because the man of sin showed up. They will testify for 1260 days. These 1260 days will be the very same time as the 42 months of trampling.  (Verses 11:4 through 11:13 are written as a parenthesis while John shows us the last half of the week for these two witnesses. Make no mistake here: they will be killed 3 1/2 days before the end of the week.)

The two witnesses, Enoch and Elijah, will appear when the covenant is made between Israel and the beast, and maybe just days before. This is to warn Israel not to enter into an agreement with the beast. The two witnesses will oppose the beast for the first half of the week. This must be because they must prophesy for a full 1260 days. This would not be possible in the second half of the week as the last half of the week is shortened and the wrath of God is poured out for maybe 5-6 months. No member of the elect will be on earth during this time.

Next, John sounds the 7th trumpet I read that an angel sounds the 7th trump. I thought it mattered to you what God actually says? , which will mark the exact midpoint. It will sound in heaven when the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is God. No.

A second or two later, those in Judea will begin to flee - just as Jesus told them to - and will flee for 1260 days, while the city is being trampled and while the two witnesses are testifying.

Get the picture? John introduces these events in the order that they will happen. All five events that have this 3 1/2 year timing do not begin on the same day. 

I know. Surprised you do.

The events of chapter 12, outside of the first 5 verses that are a parenthesis, happen AFTER the man of sin enters the temple and divides the week into two halves. The woman (those living in Judea) that flee will flee within a second or two of seeing the abomination. it makes sense then that John put that in chapter 12.

I believe that the man of sin will be revealed when he enters the temple and declares he is God. Only to some. Many will know when he makes the covenant. When the Temple is being rebuilt, the beast is already revealed to those watching.  But John is busy writing chapter 12, so does not get to the start of chapter 13 until he covers those events that will happen only seconds after the midpoint.

In chapter 13, John introduces us to the man of sin turned Beast. The timing is till seconds or minutes after the midpoint. Absolutely incorrect. The beast rises to power 3.5 years before the midpoint. But then most of chapter 13 is written as a parenthesis with no bearing on chronology: John takes us part way down the last half of the week showing us what the Beast and False prophet will do.

In Chapter 14 the timing is still shortly after the midpoint.  God must warn people about the mark before the mark is established and enforced.

Finally in chapter 15 we see the martyrs of the 70th week show up in heaven. The days of great tribulation will not occur until AFTER chapter 14.

Crushingly wrong. In Ch 7, right after the 6th seal and before the 7th seal we see the saints out of 'great tribulation' in heaven.

Rev 7

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 

This means that great trib has already occurred and is over at this point as the ones who endured the GT have passed through and are in heaven. This also destroys your 'strict chronology' as you would then have to put Rev 7 after Rev 14.

What was it you said? Oh yes... 

"ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong." Guess you just proved yourself wrong. It makes much more sense to conclude the concurrence of a great many events while holding to the chronological nature of any numbered sets, and realizing we are given an overview in earlier chapters, and ensuing chapters provide the details of people, places and events of the earlier outline chapters, when the text demands this conclusion. Which it does in many cases.

This is the way John wrote, and the way the vision was shown to John; events were written in the exact order that they will take place.

This is true even as you don't understand what you are saying. 

It is quite apparent you don't understand John's chronology. The trampling, the testifying, the fleeing, the supernatural feeding and protection, and the 42 months of authority are all happening at the same time, from chapters 13 on to chapter 16 where the week ends. But they are going on in the background. John only covers the starting point of each event. Therefore the book is very chronological. You really need to look up the definitions of chronology and concurrence.

Axiom on Revelation:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong.

And you and your ilk are the final word on God's chronology? Where is the standard for such perfect understanding?

I said, "there are "6 different timelines all running simultaneously""  I was correct. I also said, ""Revelation is very strict in chronology"" and that also is very correct. John only gives us the BEGINNING point of each timeline, with the exception of parenthesis for the two witnesses and for the Beast and false prophet.)  The beginning points of each of these 5 timelines is staggered and John gives them in the exact order they will happen.

Therefore, if you say something silly, like, "chapter 17 really happens in chapter 6" it will be proven wrong. Then you are proven wrong as you contend that either ch 7 must occur after ch 14, or ch 14 must occur in ch 7. 

 The 6th seal and the 7th trump occur simultaneously. The the coming of Jesus and the wrath of God begins at both the 6th seal and the 7th trump.

Rev 6

“Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 

¹⁷ the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Rev 11

¹⁵ The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
    and he will reign for ever and ever.”

¹⁶ And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, ¹⁷ saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
    the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
    and have begun to reign.
¹⁸ The nations were angry,
    and your wrath has come.

This is how it's done. I advance a premise and then give supporting evidence from the source material. You should try it. The above FACTS from SCRIPTURE are PROOF that the seals and Trumps run CONCURRENTLY. The seals are opened in order. The trumps are sounded in order. But the trumps are sounding as the seals are opening. This is due to the BIBLICAL FACT that the wrath of God is is in both the 6th seal and the 7th Trump. Once the 7th trump sounds, and at the 7th seal, the bowls are poured out. The 7th bowl is identical to the 6th seal as well.

Rev 6

¹⁴ The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Rev 16

“It is done!” ¹⁸ Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. ¹⁹ The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath. ²⁰ Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. ²¹ From the sky huge hailstones, each weighing about a hundred pounds,^[a] fell on people. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.

If these two events, 6th seal and 7th bowl are not the same, then the mountains and islands of the 6th seal have to be removed and then put back so the mountains and islands could be removed again at the 7th bowl. Not likely.

Also, chapter 13 is the detailed look at the rise of the beast, since the beast rises at the first seal in chapter 6,  some of the chapter 13 events occur at the very beginning of the week. Just because we see the details of the beast reign does not necessarily mean that all the details are played out at that moment. For instance, once the deadly would is healed the world understands the power of the beast and the dragon and worships them. This allows the beast to confirm the covenant and get the temple rebuilt. Only when the time arrives for God to allow the beast to exercise the 42 months of authority given to it, does the beast begin to blaspheme and sit in the Temple and then wage war and conqueror God's people.

 

Edited July 16, 2017 by Diaste

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Do you actually believe that? How much good would a vision of the past do? None. A vision of the present would be more helpful in some cases I suppose but the present disappears as soon as it arrives, we are continual time travelers and so even a vision that was received right now, for right now, would soon be a vision of the past. The only visions that are meaningful are the ones of the future as that's where we are all going, every nanosecond. The Revelation is not a vision in my mind, it's a series of real events pulled from the deep future and shown to John, using visions.

Yes, of course I believe that. Why? Because God did it. Take for example the first 5 verses of Rev. 12. They are written as a parenthesis (not in John's chronology) and are about the birth of Christ.  When Jesus sent me to chapter 12, He gave me a synopsis of the chapter:

"This chapter was Me introducing John to the Dragon and in particular what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the 70th week. Count how many times the Dragon is mentioned, including pronouns."

I counted 32 times. He waited. Then He said,

"I also chose to show John what the Dragon did when I was born. Those first five verses were a 'history lesson' to John."

There can be little doubt, Satan was behind King Herod's attempt to Kill Jesus as a young child.

I agree, Revelation is almost like history written ahead of time. But it also includes so visions of the past.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

God did not say ONLY things hereafter,  He certainly did.

Rev. 4:1  ... I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Sorry, no "only." He just made a statement of fact: John would be shown things of the future. This statement does not PRECLUDE God from showing John events of the past also.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

And all the events are still future from now beginning with Rev 4:2

Some are and some are not. Chapters 4 & 5 were a vision of John's past. Rev. 12:1-5 were about Christ's birth and were certainly history to John in 95 AD.  However, MOST of Revelation was future to john and even future to us today.

 

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

That's not a valid answer. Just repeating your firmly held belief does not shed light on the question. 

You can answer your own question by meditating on these verses. Look at Rev. 5:

⁶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Be honest now: you KNOW the Holy Spirit was sent down around 32 AD.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Does this mean that the midpoint of the week occurred in the 1st century?

Of course not! John caught up to his present when he was shown (and then wrote) about seal 5: the martyrs of the church age. The church has been waiting for seal 6 for all this time.

 

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

 I don't care what  the word says? Since the text says nothing about evil, or the lack thereof, I can only go with what is written. 

Right! In other words, there is NO POSSIBLE WAY this first seal can represent the Antichrist  or anything else evil. yet millions imagine these things. Words have meaning. The color white has meaning. The horse has meaning. These things speak of holy conquest. NOT EVIL CONQUEST!  there can be only one logical answer: for any kind of holy conquest or overcoming around 32 AD it has to represent the advance of the gospel. 

 

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Yep. It's the beast who rises at the first seal sometime in the near future, perhaps at the beginning of the next decade. 

I though you just said "the text says nothing about evil?"  Do you frequently contradict yourself? Make no mistake, anything "antichrist" is evil because Christ is righteous. These words have not even the slightest hint of evil, so they CANNOT represent anything evil. Please, follow your own words: "I can only go with what is written."

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

I know what it means even if the text doesn't say it?

My point exactly: you THINK you know, when in fact you don't. And the answer you come up with simply does not fit the words given.  You imagine this is the Beast of chapter 13. You are mistaken and don't even recognize it. Go with what is written! White, horse, victor's crown, overcoming. And all this in 32 AD.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Don't you see the error of your thinking? The text does not say, "No evil." So you cannot conclude, "No evil." Absence of fact does not prove existence or non existence, no conclusion can be drawn. 

I certainly see the error of your thinking: there is nothing evil even hinted at so you choose something evil. Don't deny it: it is exactly what you have done! Did you not notice the color God chose for the Beast?  "scarlet coloured beast"  "a great red dragon"

So when John (and God behind Him) shows a WHITE horse, you choose something that God colors RED. Do you see how silly this is? You know Jesus' horse is white.

Without a doubt, the beast would color his own horse white - but the Beast did not write this! It is coming from God Himself. I think God knows which color to choose, and He chose white. OF COURSE a conclusion can be drawn: in God's mind, white would never be used for the Beast. Therefore to even imagine this white horse should represent anything evil is beyond my imagination.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Prove it by scripture verses. 

What good would that do? Anyone that can see a white horse and imagine it represents a red beast does not pay much attention to scripture.  However, just to help you out, WHEN was the Holy Spirit sent down?

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

So you cannot post any scripture that likens the gospel to a crown? Or a bow? Or a white horse? Or a rider on a horse? You don't have to post an example of all of them, just one will do. Any one.

1. a crown

   1. a mark of royal or (in general) exalted rank

      1. the wreath or garland which was given as a prize to victors in public games

   2. metaph. the eternal blessedness which will be given as a prize to the genuine servants of God and Christ: the crown (wreath) which is the reward of the righteousness

   3. that which is an ornament and honour to one

Several of the commentators said this was a victor's crown.

White: Jesus horse was white, not red. 

" they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. "

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment

I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment

And white robes were given unto every one of them;

stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes

have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

And you want to imagine that white in this ONE verse, is to represent the Beast? It boggles my mind.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

The same tired logical fallacy of proof of non existence by absence of fact. Very weak argument.

But your argument of choosing the opposite meaning of John's 17 uses of white is a better argument? If it was not so pathetic, it would be funny.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

No. The beast will be in Jerusalem well before the midpoint. The idea of the midpoint is not the entering of Jerusalem by invading armies, it's the beast sitting in the Temple declaring himself to be God. The beast will come to power at the beginning of the last week to secure the Land of Israel and allow Temple construction. This will be opposed by a great many in the Islamic world and the beast will defend Israel and the covenant. The beast will also be opposed by the two witnesses.

Sorry, wrong again.  The beast is not who will trample the city for 42 months! Do you even read these verses? It will be, without a doubt, the armies of the man of sin: GENTILE soldiers.

 

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

The two witnesses, Enoch and Elijah, will appear when the covenant is made between Israel and the beast, and maybe just days before. This is to warn Israel not to enter into an agreement with the beast. The two witnesses will oppose the beast for the first half of the week. This must be because they must prophesy for a full 1260 days. This would not be possible in the second half of the week as the last half of the week is shortened and the wrath of God is poured out for maybe 5-6 months. No member of the elect will be on earth during this time.

Again a theory with no basis in scripture - in fact totally avoiding the scriptures given! Do you have any idea where in the week John is in Rev. 11? Allow me to assist you: it is MIDPOINT. The 42 months shown in verse 2 proves that. However, not exactly midpoint, for the exact midpoint is at the 7th trumpet and a second or two before 12:6. This is a given.

So WHERE does God show John the entrance of the two witnesses? In 11:3. It is not an accident that they are first seen right there. The man of sin must get into Jerusalem so he can enter the temple in Jerusalem. No, He has NOT been here, else the city would have been trampled long before. Get this straight: the city BEGINS being trampled just days before the midpoint.

Sorry, your theories are all wet. Not at all scripture. It is NOT the 1260 days that are shortened. Where do you come up with such ideas? 5 times in Revelation and twice in Daniel we have the second half of the week as 1260 days of 42 months, or 3 1/2 years. How can you even imagine they are not accurate counts? Again, that boggles my mind. It is NOT the 1260 days that get shortened: is is the NUMBER OF DAYS OF GREAT TRIBULATION that get shortened - that will happen DURING the last 1260 days . God will shorten those days by pouring out the vials of wrath. In effect, He renders the armies of the beast helpless.

Please, get this straight, once and for all:

|<.................................................70th week of  Daniel...............................................................>|

|<....................1260 days..................>MIDPOINT<........................1260 days.............................>|

The midpoint is at the 7th trumpet. That is verse 11:15. The two witnesses show up in verse 3 of the same chapter. See the ^

|<....................1256 1/2 days.......................^..>MIDPOINT<..................1260 days..........................>|

It appears that the man of sin shows up in Jerusalem at close to the same time, because 42 months of trampling.

|<..........................1256 1/2 days................^<..................1260 days of testifying.....................^...>|

THEY - the two witnesses - show up right then, in verse 3, because the man of sin just showed up. It is exactly 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint. they testify for their 1260 days and are killed just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial ends the week.

John's Chronology: 

11:1-2   the man of sin enters Jerusalem - the city will start to be trampled - probably 3 1/2 days before the midpoint

11:3       The two witnesses show up - without a doubt because the man of sin showed up - exactly 3 1/2 days before the midpoint

11:4 through 11:13  Parenthesis with no bearing on chronology

11:14-11:15 Back to Chronology: the 7th trumpet marks the exact midpoint.

12:6 a second or two after the exact midpoint and abomination.

I know, you have not recognized that 11:4 through 11:13 are a parenthesis.

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Then you are proven wrong as you contend that either ch 7 must occur after ch 14, or ch 14 must occur in ch 7. 

 The 6th seal and the 7th trump occur simultaneously. The the coming of Jesus and the wrath of God begins at both the 6th seal and the 7th trump.

This is all nonsense.

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

I read that an angel sounds the 7th trump. I thought it mattered to you what God actually says?

Now you are nitpicking: John WROTE IT.

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Only to some. Many will know when he makes the covenant. When the Temple is being rebuilt, the beast is already revealed to those watching.

Possible, but in my scenario those that know will already be in heaven. Perhaps when Paul wrote about being revealed, his meaning was revealed to the JEWS.

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Absolutely incorrect. The beast rises to power 3.5 years before the midpoint.

No! It will be the man of sin that rises to power. He will change into the Beast at the abomination. He is not the Beast until he is possessed by Satan.

 

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Crushingly wrong. In Ch 7, right after the 6th seal and before the 7th seal we see the saints out of 'great tribulation' in heaven.

That is a theory, but it is a WRONG theory: that large group there is the raptured church. You wish to rearrange and your theories will be proven wrong. Mark that down. See, in your mind, "great tribulation"  - these two words together - MUST be those days Jesus spoke about. God does not see it that way. Did you not notice that Jesus had to add more words to the days He was talking about? There has been and will be "great tribulation," in the world, but those days Jesus spoke of will be the worst of all. Why? Because it will encompass most if not all of the world. You imagined I was wrong, but in fact, it is your theory that is wrong.

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

This means that great trib has already occurred and is over at this point as the ones who endured the GT have passed through and are in heaven. This also destroys your 'strict chronology' as you would then have to put Rev 7 after Rev 14.

No, you only THINK the "trib" has already occurred because you don't understand "great tribulation." Again, you imagine I am wrong, when it is your theory that is wrong all along.

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

when the text demands this conclusion. Which it does in many cases.

Only in your imagination. Because you don't understand the book. Because you don't understand "great tribulation" without the words " such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Do you not understand that to those being beheaded by ISIS it is "great tribulation" for them? How can "tribulation" be any greater than someone beheaded? They cannot be murdered twice. All John is telling us in Rev. 7 is that at the time of the rapture GOD considers it "great tribulation." Why? People will be being beheaded.  You see, it all depends on HOW one reads the text. For example, John was told to write to the harlet Jezebel in chapter 2:20. Without a doubt she was alive when John wrote it and sent it to that church. God told them that He would cast both her and the men sleeping with her into "great tribulation" if they did not quit. So, did God plan on keeping her alive for 2000 years to get to the days of GT that He spoke of? No, it only means God does not think of those two words together like you do. He can create "great tribulation" any time He chooses.

 

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

And you and your ilk are the final word on God's chronology? Where is the standard for such perfect understanding?

As I have said before: God spent months teaching me. Now, I am sure if it were you, it would have taken only days. I was SLOW. But my point? I did not skip over Acts 1 and 2. And I do practice praying in the Spirit a lot, just as Paul did. It is a revelation gift. If you wish to have revelation of God's word, copy Paul.

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

 Then you are proven wrong as you contend that either ch 7 must occur after ch 14, or ch 14 must occur in ch 7. 

 The 6th seal and the 7th trump occur simultaneously. The the coming of Jesus and the wrath of God begins at both the 6th seal and the 7th trump.

I contend no such thing. You imagine this because of faulty theories. What you suggest is patently impossible: the seals are sealing a document that CANNOT be opened until all 7 seals are opened. That is fact. Anything written in Revelation after the 7th seal is what was written INSIDE the scroll. Therefore, what you suggest is impossible. John did not see the trumpets, for example, until all 7 seals were opened. They were written INSIDE the main document that was sealed.

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

This is how it's done. I advance a premise and then give supporting evidence from the source material. You should try it. The above FACTS from SCRIPTURE are PROOF that the seals and Trumps run CONCURRENTLY. The seals are opened in order. The trumps are sounded in order. But the trumps are sounding as the seals are opening. This is due to the BIBLICAL FACT that the wrath of God is is in both the 6th seal and the 7th Trump. Once the 7th trump sounds, and at the 7th seal, the bowls are poured out. The 7th bowl is identical to the 6th seal as well.

This is nonsense and only shows us you have little understanding of John's use of Greek Aorist verbs.  The "fact" as you say that God's wrath is shown in two places only show us His wrath is CONTINUING ON from where it began.

Again, your theory is impossible. You are not understanding the seals that are sealing this document. 

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

If these two events, 6th seal and 7th bowl are not the same, then the mountains and islands of the 6th seal have to be removed and then put back so the mountains and islands could be removed again at the 7th bowl. Not likely.

Again, lack of understanding. Did you not read the news when that great earthquake and tsunami hit Japan? Did you not read that the earth's AXIS moved? When it moved, everything on the planet moved. And what is coming will be a FAR WORSE earthquake. Everything is going to move big time. And did you not understand, there is a HUGE difference between mountains moving and mountains disappearing? It is all in how we read these scriptures.

 

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Also, chapter 13 is the detailed look at the rise of the beast, since the beast rises at the first seal in chapter 6,  some of the chapter 13 events occur at the very beginning of the week. Just because we see the details of the beast reign does not necessarily mean that all the details are played out at that moment. For instance, once the deadly would is healed the world understands the power of the beast and the dragon and worships them. This allows the beast to confirm the covenant and get the temple rebuilt. Only when the time arrives for God to allow the beast to exercise the 42 months of authority given to it, does the beast begin to blaspheme and sit in the Temple and then wage war and conqueror God's people.

Learn the difference between the Beast and the man of sin.

Edited July 16, 2017 by iamlamad

[fixerupper]

It's just crazy that someone would believe that a seal opened in 32 AD when the prophecy wasn't uttered until 90-95 AD.  This seal isn't the gospel.  It's instrumental in bringing on the second seal.  To say this is Christ or the gospel has no continuity to the other seals. It's kind of a misfit. The gospel is never associated with a bow.  You don't care.  A bow is associated with deceit and falsity in the OT, you don't care.  

In a good hermeneutic one weeds out "interpretations."  For example.  Some beliefs about the four horsemen are, the anti-Christ, Christ, Catholicism, cold war. A good way is to weed out the ones that violate your hermeneutic do a textual overview of the passage, and a word study of the text.  You could care less about those things and that's how you rapturize verses like Hebrews 9 that have nothing to do with it.   

Apply logic and simplicity.  

We really need to look at the purpose of a seal.  They are people and events that indicate to us the approaching tribulation.  They are NOT something that opened centuries ago, or progressed up to today.  They open fairly quickly since horsemen signify swiftness and strength.  It's absolutely absurd to me that anyone would believe a prophecy of the opening of a seal written in 90-95 AD was fulfill in 32 AD.  I have to ask myself, what am I doing discussing this with this man. 

The anti-Christ isn't mentioned until later in the book making it doubtful it's him.  It's probably a good guess though.  

1. Christ is the ONE opening the seals, why would he be the rider and conquering be the gospel ? 

2. Christ or the gospel is never associated with a bow which 'usually' associated with evil.  

3. Christ rides a white horse and wears a diadem. This rider of Rev. 6:2 wears a 'stephanos.' 

4. Why would Christ be the first rider, and the other three are bad guys with bad things that follow? We've always depicted the four as, 'riding together' considering them to be confederate.

So, just by using logic and simplicity it doesn't appear the gospel is the precursor to the other three evil seals.  I say it's holy war.  The second seal Saddam, third seal ISIS.  

Edited July 16, 2017 by fixerupper

[Diaste]

https://oncedelivered.net/2011/03/18/the-seven-sealed-scroll-rev-51-4/

Sorry, wrong again.  The beast is not who will trample the city for 42 months! Do you even read these verses? It will be, without a doubt, the armies of the man of sin: GENTILE soldiers.

Same person. But you'll ignore the truth.

 

Again a theory with no basis in scripture - in fact totally avoiding the scriptures given! Do you have any idea where in the week John is in Rev. 11? Allow me to assist you: it is MIDPOINT. The 42 months shown in verse 2 proves that. However, not exactly midpoint, for the exact midpoint is at the 7th trumpet and a second or two before 12:6. This is a given.

Proof? None, as usual.

 

So WHERE does God show John the entrance of the two witnesses? In 11:3. It is not an accident that they are first seen right there. The man of sin must get into Jerusalem so he can enter the temple in Jerusalem. No, He has NOT been here, else the city would have been trampled long before. Get this straight: the city BEGINS being trampled just days before the midpoint.

Not exactly. When the beast rises at the first seal in the beginning of the week he will be powerful and peaceful as scripture records, by peace he will destroy many. For 3.5 years of the first half of the week, he will protect the Temple mount and fight against those opposed to the building of the 3rd Temple. He will be in Jerusalem from the onset to negotiate the covenant and confirm the terms for the sole purpose of rebuilding the 3rd Temple so that he can eventually sit in the Temple and proclaim himself god, at the midpoint. This is when the city is trampled underfoot. From the A of D to the end there are 42 months and the beasts authority coincides with this time period. The Temple cannot be rebuilt until the beast makes the covenant with many, then in the middle of the week he stops the Temple liturgy and profanes the altar. 

Sorry, your theories are all wet. Not at all scripture. It is NOT the 1260 days that are shortened. Where do you come up with such ideas? 5 times in Revelation and twice in Daniel we have the second half of the week as 1260 days of 42 months, or 3 1/2 years. How can you even imagine they are not accurate counts? Again, that boggles my mind. It is NOT the 1260 days that get shortened: is is the NUMBER OF DAYS OF GREAT TRIBULATION that get shortened - that will happen DURING the last 1260 days . God will shorten those days by pouring out the vials of wrath. In effect, He renders the armies of the beast helpless.

Correct, Surprised you noticed. Yes, 'great tribulation' is shortened and the rest of the week runs it's course. The point was that the two witnesses must be in Jerusalem in the first half of the week only. They cannot appear in the 2nd half as no person of God can be on the earth for the entire 1260 days of the last half of the week and therefore the prophesy would be wrong. This means the beast and the two witnesses are in Jerusalem from the very beginning. This makes sense because as the Jews enter into the agreement with death, the beast, there must be a warning from God and opposition to the beast by the prophets, in Jerusalem.

 

  14 hours ago, Diaste said:

Then you are proven wrong as you contend that either ch 7 must occur after ch 14, or ch 14 must occur in ch 7. 

This is all nonsense.

You said it, not me, so it’s your nonsense. “The days of great tribulation will not occur until AFTER chapter 14.” That is not possible when scripture says in Rev 7, “And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation;”  How is it possible for this to be if ‘great tribulation’ only occurs after Chapter 14? SO either 7 happens after 14 or 14 must be before 7, or there must be two GT’s, or maybe you just don’t have your story straight. I’m going with the latter.

 

  14 hours ago, Diaste said:

I read that an angel sounds the 7th trump. I thought it mattered to you what God actually says?

Now you are nitpicking: John WROTE IT.

Not nitpicking. You said it. “Next, John sounds the 7th trumpet,” You have no idea what you are saying do you?

No! It will be the man of sin that rises to power. He will change into the Beast at the abomination. He is not the Beast until he is possessed by Satan.

And he is not possessed, he is empowered. The idea of possession does not appear in Revelation concerning the dragon and the beast. The man of sin, the son of perdition, and the beast are just different names describing the same person. It’s kind of pathetic you can’t see that.

 

  14 hours ago, Diaste said:

Crushingly wrong. In Ch 7, right after the 6th seal and before the 7th seal we see the saints out of 'great tribulation' in heaven.

That is a theory, but it is a WRONG theory: that large group there is the raptured church.

No it isn’t. Where do you see ‘raptured church’ in these verses ? Rev 7

¹³ Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?” ¹⁴ I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 

How is it theory when John has recorded fact and it’s right before your eyes? It is NOT the ‘raptured church’ it is the elect that have come through great tribulation.

 

You wish to rearrange and your theories will be proven wrong. Mark that down. See, in your mind, "great tribulation"  - these two words together - MUST be those days Jesus spoke about. God does not see it that way. Did you not notice that Jesus had to add more words to the days He was talking about? There has been and will be "great tribulation," in the world, but those days Jesus spoke of will be the worst of all. Why? Because it will encompass most if not all of the world. You imagined I was wrong, but in fact, it is your theory that is wrong.

This has to be the worst argument I have ever heard supporting a point.

  14 hours ago, Diaste said:

This means that great trib has already occurred and is over at this point as the ones who endured the GT have passed through and are in heaven. This also destroys your 'strict chronology' as you would then have to put Rev 7 after Rev 14.

No, you only THINK the "trib" has already occurred because you don't understand "great tribulation." Again, you imagine I am wrong, when it is your theory that is wrong all along.

You keep spitting this kind of nonsense like you are a 6 year old on the playground. “I’m right and you’re wrong!” Offer some proof from scripture instead of diseased rants born of ill conceived premises.

Only in your imagination. Because you don't understand the book. Because you don't understand "great tribulation" without the words " such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Do you not understand that to those being beheaded by ISIS it is "great tribulation" for them? How can "tribulation" be any greater than someone beheaded? They cannot be murdered twice. All John is telling us in Rev. 7 is that at the time of the rapture GOD considers it "great tribulation."

So God considers it ‘great tribulation’ in Rev 7 but when Jesus, who is God, says it’s great tribulation in Matt 24, then it’s something different?

Why? People will be being beheaded.  You see, it all depends on HOW one reads the text.

Yep and it’s clear you have your own personal, HOW to read the text.

For example, John was told to write to the harlet Jezebel in chapter 2:20. Without a doubt she was alive when John wrote it and sent it to that church. God told them that He would cast both her and the men sleeping with her into "great tribulation" if they did not quit. So, did God plan on keeping her alive for 2000 years to get to the days of GT that He spoke of? No, it only means God does not think of those two words together like you do. He can create "great tribulation" any time He chooses.

 

That you don’t understand this is sad. I mean really sad. It’s figurative.  The Jezebel referred to  in Rev 2:20 died almost 1000 years before this. It is the worship and teachings of Jezebel that survived that is damming those adherents to the curse God speaks of. That you don’t discern this means you have not the insight about which you incessantly brag.

As I have said before: God spent months teaching me. Now, I am sure if it were you, it would have taken only days. I was SLOW. But my point? I did not skip over Acts 1 and 2. And I do practice praying in the Spirit a lot, just as Paul did. It is a revelation gift. If you wish to have revelation of God's word, copy Paul.

Yeah, Koresh, Jones, Jakes, and all the other false prophets said as much. Very impressed.

I contend no such thing. You imagine this because of faulty theories. What you suggest is patently impossible: the seals are sealing a document that CANNOT be opened until all 7 seals are opened. That is fact. Anything written in Revelation after the 7th seal is what was written INSIDE the scroll. Therefore, what you suggest is impossible. John did not see the trumpets, for example, until all 7 seals were opened. They were written INSIDE the main document that was sealed.

Not true. This is how the scroll is sealed by Jewish tradition; “The seals are placed throughout the scroll so that as each seal is broken, a portion of the hidden text is revealed but the rest remains closed off.”

https://oncedelivered.net/2011/03/18/the-seven-sealed-scroll-rev-51-4/

Now that’s the secular take on the seals and scrolls. What does Rev 6 say? 

Lamb opened the first of the seven seals…..  ² I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

³ When the Lamb opened the second seal… ⁴ Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make people kill each other. To him was given a large sword.

 

⁵ When the Lamb opened the third seal… I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 

⁷ When the Lamb opened the fourth seal…⁸ I looked, and there before me was a pale horse!

⁹ When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God

You see? Only one seal at a time was opened. When a seal was opened we could see what was written. Your idea that all the seals had to be broken before anything could be read is wrong. Get that? You are wrong again.

This is nonsense and only shows us you have little understanding of John's use of Greek Aorist verbs.  The "fact" as you say that God's wrath is shown in two places only show us His wrath is CONTINUING ON from where it began.

Again you are wrong. Let me post the FACTS.

Rev 6

¹⁷ For the great day of their  wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Rev 11
    and your wrath has come.

This is not the idea of continuing, the language is identical. The wrath has come. “Has come” means, ‘to come from one place to another’ in the Greek. This is what is happening in Rev 6 and 11 when wrath “erchomai”.  This is an arrival of a person and as such the verb in both Rev 6 and 11 is used to denote an arrival from one place to another at that moment.

Again, lack of understanding. Did you not read the news when that great earthquake and tsunami hit Japan? Did you not read that the earth's AXIS moved? When it moved, everything on the planet moved. And what is coming will be a FAR WORSE earthquake. Everything is going to move big time. And did you not understand, there is a HUGE difference between mountains moving and mountains disappearing? It is all in how we read these scriptures.

Wrong again. The mountains and islands were not ‘moved’ in Rev 6 in an abstract sense. Rev 6:14 says the islands and mountains were moved out of their places.  This is much more than a slight change in GPS coordinates. No longer are the mountains and islands found in the place they were. This is the same as Rev 16 saying the island and mountains were not found. So again the scriptures have proven you incorrect.

 

Learn the difference between the Beast and the man of sin.

There is no difference, they are the same person.

Edited July 16, 2017 by Diaste

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Yes, of course I believe that. Why? Because God did it. Take for example the first 5 verses of Rev. 12. They are written as a parenthesis (not in John's chronology) and are about the birth of Christ.  When Jesus sent me to chapter 12, He gave me a synopsis of the chapter:

"This chapter was Me introducing John to the Dragon and in particular what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the 70th week. Count how many times the Dragon is mentioned, including pronouns."

I counted 32 times. He waited. Then He said,

"I also chose to show John what the Dragon did when I was born. Those first five verses were a 'history lesson' to John."

There can be little doubt, Satan was behind King Herod's attempt to Kill Jesus as a young child.

So you couldn't just get that from reading? I suspect things pop into your mind and you like the thoughts and then place the blame on Jesus for those thoughts. 

I agree, Revelation is almost like history written ahead of time. But it also includes so visions of the past.

Rev. 4:1  ... I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Sorry, no "only." He just made a statement of fact: John would be shown things of the future. This statement does not PRECLUDE God from showing John events of the past also.

Some are and some are not. Chapters 4 & 5 were a vision of John's past.

They were? any biblical evidence for that? No. You don't deal in fact.

Rev. 12:1-5 were about Christ's birth and were certainly history to John in 95 AD.  However, MOST of Revelation was future to john and even future to us today.

 

You can answer your own question by meditating on these verses. Look at Rev. 5:

⁶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Be honest now: you KNOW the Holy Spirit was sent down around 32 AD.

Or thereabouts. Still doesn't place 4 and 5 in the past as you contend. It's clearly 90 AD and what is about to be shown for the rest of the book is prophecy of the future. Period. 

Of course not! John caught up to his present when he was shown (and then wrote) about seal 5: the martyrs of the church age. The church has been waiting for seal 6 for all this time.

Wow.

I though you just said "the text says nothing about evil?"  Do you frequently contradict yourself? Make no mistake, anything "antichrist" is evil because Christ is righteous. These words have not even the slightest hint of evil, so they CANNOT represent anything evil. Please, follow your own words: "I can only go with what is written."

You're a deceiver. Taking my words out of context, cherry picking and changing the meaning. I said the text says nothing about evil or the LACK of evil and no conclusion can be drawn by this evidence alone.

My point exactly: you THINK you know, when in fact you don't. And the answer you come up with simply does not fit the words given.  You imagine this is the Beast of chapter 13. You are mistaken and don't even recognize it. Go with what is written! White, horse, victor's crown, overcoming. And all this in 32 AD.

You'll find out. Hope you remember to repent of your grave errors.

I certainly see the error of your thinking: there is nothing evil even hinted at so you choose something evil. Don't deny it: it is exactly what you have done! Did you not notice the color God chose for the Beast?  "scarlet coloured beast"  "a great red dragon"

No. this is just a product of arrogance and false teaching. I never used the foolish idea of absence of evidence to prove existence. You do that. I used facts and deductive reasoning by the leading of the Spirit to find God's truth. You wallow in your own self important pit.

So when John (and God behind Him) shows a WHITE horse, you choose something that God colors RED. Do you see how silly this is? You know Jesus' horse is white.

Yes, oh great deceiver. Jesus rides a white horse because conquerors do. Both the righteous and unrighteous conquerors.

Without a doubt, the beast would color his own horse white - but the Beast did not write this! It is coming from God Himself. I think God knows which color to choose, and He chose white. OF COURSE a conclusion can be drawn: in God's mind, white would never be used for the Beast. Therefore to even imagine this white horse should represent anything evil is beyond my imagination.

There are a great many things beyond your imagination.

1. a crown

   1. a mark of royal or (in general) exalted rank

      1. the wreath or garland which was given as a prize to victors in public games

   2. metaph. the eternal blessedness which will be given as a prize to the genuine servants of God and Christ: the crown (wreath) which is the reward of the righteousness

   3. that which is an ornament and honour to one

Several of the commentators said this was a victor's crown.

And so it is. Just not the victory you are looking for, and not the victor you expect.

White: Jesus horse was white, not red. 

" they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. "

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment

I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment

And white robes were given unto every one of them;

stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes

have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

And you want to imagine that white in this ONE verse, is to represent the Beast? It boggles my mind.

What boggles the mind is the lunacy in your thought processes. The above references raiment the color of white. This is the representation of righteousness and purity, white RAIMENT. Please post scripture that likens a white horse to holiness or righteousness. But you won't. It doesn't exist.

But your argument of choosing the opposite meaning of John's 17 uses of white is a better argument? If it was not so pathetic, it would be funny.

I went with exactly what the scripture says. John's use is white robes, linen, or raiment. I suppose a white cloud or a white beard also represents righteousness in your mind. What about a white sepulcher? Is that holy? Talk about missing the context, truth, all common sense, and a smidgen of reality. 

 

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

So you couldn't just get that from reading? I suspect things pop into your mind and you like the thoughts and then place the blame on Jesus for those thoughts. 

In fact, when God pushed me into Revelation, I determined to throw out all preconceptions and come with an empty slate - and wait for His intended meaning. In fact, there are many that absolutely deny this passage is about Christ's birth.

If you have never heard God speak to you - with what seems like an audible voice - you would not understand. It is very similar with a human voice talking to you. Surely sometime in your life you have heard your mom or dad speak when you could not see them.

Just so you know, thoughts and imaginations come from outside the human spirit into your brain. ONLY GOD can speak to your spirit.

For those that pray in the Spirit - they learn WHERE the spirit speaks from - It comes from the Holy Spirit inside the human spirit to the mind. Our human spirit uses the same "channel." All other "voices" come from elsewhere." Every believer should learn the voice of their own human spirit.

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

They were? any biblical evidence for that? No. You don't deal in fact.

Where have you been? Oh, preconceived glasses on: got it. Do you actually believe John when you read? Try this:

Rev. 5:

⁵ And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

⁶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Do you see it? Take off your preconceived glasses and try again: John got to see the moment Jesus ascended into the throne room. That would be right after He told Mary not to touch Him - for He had not yet ascended.

Notice also, it is the very moment that the Holy Spirit was sent down.

By the way, WHEN was He found worthy to open the book? Do you know? I mean, what just happened that caused Him to become worthy?

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

Or thereabouts. Still doesn't place 4 and 5 in the past as you contend. It's clearly 90 AD and what is about to be shown for the rest of the book is prophecy of the future. Period. 

So you will leave your blinders on. Got it. Yes, it IS 95 AD. But this is a VISION and at this point this vision is showing John an event that took place around 30 years previous to 95 AD.  Don't just let this go over your head again!

Jesus was NOT IN the throne room in chapter 4 and not until this verse in chapter 5.

The Holy Spirit WAS in the throne room until this verse where He is sent down.

Jesus was NOT FOUND worthy in the first search John watched. That is why He wept much.

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

You're a deceiver. Taking my words out of context, cherry picking and changing the meaning. I said the text says nothing about evil or the LACK of evil and no conclusion can be drawn by this evidence alone.

I know what you said, but you are deceiving yourself. The truth is, IF this was about evil, the horse would not be white, and there would we words telling us it was evil. For example: " upon his heads the name of blasphemy. "  Any doubt this "his" is evil?  "The dragon gave him his power"  Any doubt that this "his" is evil?  "All the world wondered after the beast."  Any doubt this beast is evil? "There was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies" Any doubt this "him" is evil? Now compare:

² And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

There is not one hint of anything evil. Remember the duck? Remember the quack? Remember the duck bill? There is no hint of evil because this entity is NOT evil. Go through John's 17 uses of white and see if in ANY case john used white for evil. You will not find any because John never used white for evil. So you entire thesis of "no conclusion" is wrong.  I will say this; you sure fight hard to hold onto false theories.

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

No. this is just a product of arrogance and false teaching. I never used the foolish idea of absence of evidence to prove existence. You do that. I used facts and deductive reasoning by the leading of the Spirit to find God's truth. You wallow in your own self important pit.

YOu can't even be honest with yourself. You imagine God would use "white" for something evil. Show me "white" in Revelation that even hints of something evil.  In fact, you KNOW John used "white" to represent good things. Shall I refresh your mind?

white for God's hair
White for being worthy
white for overcomers
White raiment for the 24 elders
White robes for the martyrs
White robes for the huge crowd too large to number
A white cloud for a reaper to sit on: probably Jesus
White linen for the angels with the 7 plagues
Clean and white, fine linen for the righteousness of the saints
a White horse for Jesus to ride
White horses for the armies of heaven
a white throne

So you imagine a white horse  - the color chosen by God Himself - must represent something evil? And you call this using "facts and deductive reasoning?" Now you know why I frequently write "that nothing but imagination and human reasoning."

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

Yes, oh great deceiver. Jesus rides a white horse because conquerors do. Both the righteous and unrighteous conquerors.

If the beast was to choose his own color, I could imagine he would chose white. But sorry, this is GOD'S vision in a book meant to REVEAL, not hide.  In this case, your imagination has run wild. You don't have a leg to stand on. God is simply not going to use white 16 times for good things, and then switch and use white once for something evil.  Why don't you just admit your theory here is wrong?

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

What boggles the mind is the lunacy in your thought processes. The above references raiment the color of white. This is the representation of righteousness and purity, white RAIMENT. Please post scripture that likens a white horse to holiness or righteousness. But you won't. It doesn't exist.

Still lost. God and John used a White stone, a white cloud, many white horses, and a white throne. Fact it: God is just not going to use white to represent evil.

You realize, God could have chosen ANY color for the horse Jesus will ride. And the horses the armies of heaven will ride.  Let' see: what did John write about Jesus while on the white horse:

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Hmmm. IN RIGHTEOUSNESS He will judge and make war. 

Look, if you wish to imagine this first seal is to represent the Beast, you have that right. Go ahead on! But when we get to heaven, Jesus will probably ask you why you ever imagined the first seal was about the Beast. I am only trying to save you that embarrassment.

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

I went with exactly what the scripture says.

Well, at least you THINK you did.

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

Proof? None, as usual.

Proof, but what good will it do? You have preconceived glass on and will be blind to anything I post. But for the readers sake I will show you proof.

What did Daniel say about the midpoint?

DAn. 9:27  He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple...

And Paul?  2 thes. 2:4 ... so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This will cause the daily sacrifices to cease. It will be the abomination Jesus spoke of. This event will divide the week into two halves.

Matthew 24:¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

¹⁶ Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

WHERE do we find that fleeing begin?

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

So what just happened in heaven just before 12:6? The 7th trumpet was sounded.

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

Not exactly. When the beast rises at the first seal in the beginning of the week he will be powerful and peaceful as scripture records, by peace he will destroy many. For 3.5 years of the first half of the week, he will protect the Temple mount and fight against those opposed to the building of the 3rd Temple. He will be in Jerusalem from the onset to negotiate the covenant and confirm the terms for the sole purpose of rebuilding the 3rd Temple so that he can eventually sit in the Temple and proclaim himself god, at the midpoint. This is when the city is trampled underfoot. From the A of D to the end there are 42 months and the beasts authority coincides with this time period. The Temple cannot be rebuilt until the beast makes the covenant with many, then in the middle of the week he stops the Temple liturgy and profanes the altar.  (emphasis added)

Can you offer us any kind of scriptural proof for this theory? 

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

The point was that the two witnesses must be in Jerusalem in the first half of the week only. They cannot appear in the 2nd half as no person of God can be on the earth for the entire 1260 days of the last half of the week and therefore the prophesy would be wrong. This means the beast and the two witnesses are in Jerusalem from the very beginning

Human reasoning again. Can you offer any kind of biblical proof? The truth is, THEY DO APPEAR in the second half because they appear only 3 1/2 days before the midpoint. MOST Of their testimony is during the last half.

 

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

You said it, not me, so it’s your nonsense. “The days of great tribulation will not occur until AFTER chapter 14.” That is not possible when scripture says in Rev 7, “And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation;”  How is it possible for this to be if ‘great tribulation’ only occurs after Chapter 14? SO either 7 happens after 14 or 14 must be before 7, or there must be two GT’s, or maybe you just don’t have your story straight. I’m going with the latter.

For once I must admit you are correct. Let me rewrite that sentence: “The days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of will not occur until AFTER chapter 14.”

Satisfied? GT has happened many times. But the days of GT Jesus spoke of will happen only once.

I will finish tomorrow.

[ARGOSY]

On 7/14/2017 at 1:22 AM, iamlamad said:

Readers, help him out here: does ANYONE find the word "coming" here?

All I see is that this is the start of the Day of the Lord. Sorry, this is where God's wrath begins: NO COMING here. Compare with Rev. 19 that shows His coming, or 1 Thes. 4 which mentions His coming.

If they all see him (hide us from the face) and all are aware of him (hide themselves) and it is the day of wrath and the day of the great earthquake, and the stars from heaven fall, and heaven rolls like a scroll, it surely is the second coming. To imagine life just carries on on planet earth after that moment is unrealistic and an early event like this is not described anywhere else in the bible.

 

There is nothing in the sixth seal which contradicts Rev 19 or 1 Thess 4, it is all about the second coming.

Edited July 18, 2017 by ARGOSY

[fixerupper]

13 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

If they all see him (hide us from the face) and all are aware of him (hide themselves) and it is the day of wrath and the day of the great earthquake, and the stars from heaven fall, and heaven rolls like a scroll, it surely is the second coming. To imagine life just carries on on planet earth after that moment is unrealistic and an early event like this is not described anywhere else in the bible.

 

There is nothing in the sixth seal which contradicts Rev 19 or 1 Thess 4, it is all about the second coming.

Of course there is.  The sixth seal is all about earthquakes (probabyly caused by volcanos, which cause a poluted atmosphere).  A sackcloth atmosphere would cause the moon to appear red. It's impossible for Rev. 19 or 1 Thes 4 to be the same because the seventh trump isn't sounded until Rev. 11:15!

Everything about Rev 19 or 1 Thess 4 being all about the second coming is completely contradictory.  You must be pre-wrath or mid-trib.

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.