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Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position


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3 hours ago, choir loft said:

Scripture does NOT describe the rapture as our blessed hope.  

The phrase "blessed hope" is employed as an interpretation of scripture linked to escapist rapture ideology.  

First: The word rapture never appears in scripture at all.   It is as fictitious as the popular dogma.

Second: The blessed hope mentioned in Titus DOES NOT refer to the event of the Second Coming of Christ.  Titus 2:13, like all scripture references about the rapture, is TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT.  That scripture actually refers to what Christians are expected to be doing "as we await" Jesus' appearance.  It does not refer directly to the EVENT of the Second Coming.  Rapture fans ignore this point and would have us believe it justifies their false dogma !!!!  

And what is it we are expected to be doing as we await Jesus' return?  Telling each other lies about the rapture or renouncing worldly passions and ungodliness?  Read it again and learn something.  Read it again and ACT upon its advice.   It is NOT about a false rapture.  It IS about living sensible upright and godly lives as we wait.  Christian living is what Titus is about.  It's called context, but rapture fans ignore that too.  Instead they justify sin and hope for Captain Kirk to beam them away from the consequences of their actions.   That's called spiritual irresponsibility and moral cowardice.  

I've heard congregations being encouraged to sin, "so that grace may abound" coupled with rapture slogans in church sermons.   Am I to suppose no one else has heard this?   I doubt it.   There is no such thing as a license to sin.  God will NOT excuse it or sweep it under the table. (1 Peter 4:17) If the reader supposes He will, then he or she is doing themselves a gross disservice.

This is the nut of the problem.   The rapture is about some future fiction, not about what Christians are to be doing NOW.   This is why its a doctrine of demons.  

Interpreters of the false doctrine of the rapture will use any method, any buzz word or any slogan to justify their false doctrine.  Proponents of the rapture dogma refuse to admit to this practice.  

Rapture doesn't have anything to do with the Second Coming of Christ.   There are at least three separate theories describing the rapture, each of which has Jesus returning two three or even four times.  The Bible says He returns a second time, not a third or forth or whatever.   Rapture fans can't even be counted on to agree which of the false advents of Christ are correct - pre, mid or post tribulation.  

Does this illogic bother any of them?  No.  

Doesn't this serve as cause for any of them to reexamine their doctrine for flaws?  Absolutely not.  

Fans of rapture demonic doctrine stick to their story no matter what facts and arguments and logic are presented otherwise.  This is a matter of dogmatic adherence to satan, not a search for truth or even a positive basis of faith.  It's a diversion of satan to take attention away from what a Christian ought to be doing NOW - replacing it with a false notion about a future that will never unfold as it has been interpreted in Christian supermarket tabloid trash.   

Rapture fans have made up their minds and cannot be persuaded by facts or logic to abandon their false position.   Their own doctrine is riddled with illogic and untruth, yet they refuse to see it for what it really is - a lie of satan.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

So whats the truth of the gathering?

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8 hours ago, OldCoot said:

I would ask then, what is the purpose of the tribulation period?  What is its ultimate goal? Who is its major focus?

Go back and read my post again.  Apparently you didn't do a thorough job the first time.  You're knee jerk reaction resulted in misunderstanding and deliberate obfuscation.  Without going into detail, I touched on some of the major points.  

As for specific answers to the questions you've posed above, I suggest you abandon your tendency to dwell upon buzz words and religious slogans and begin an honest study of the End Times.  It should only take you a few years to undo all the rubbish you've accepted as gospel.  Bear in mind that virtually ALL the literature published about the rapture is a money making proposition.  Consider the source and you'll realize where it's going with it's false assertions.   Or.....you can continue to be conned by the snake oil salesmen that pitch rapture trash on the American church (all the rest of the world's churches have rejected it, and for good reason).

If you want quick and dirty here's my answer;

1. Purpose? Elimination of sin upon the earth. (Revelation 20)

2. Goal? Establish the kingdom of God upon the earth as a political reality (Daniel 2).

3. Focus? Israel, always Israel. (read the entire Bible)

Baruck HaShem Yeshuah

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

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Hello Everyone,

George has graciously unlocked this topic. 

Let us all post our thoughts on the subject of the OP without letting our passion get out of hand and getting it locked again.

Blessings

D.

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Greetings, siblings . . .

There’s no way to 
misinterpret who it is that comes first after Paul describes it so completely and plainly.  Read on…

2 Thes. 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

The topic being discussed here is "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,” and our gathering back to Him.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

What is Paul saying here?  He’s telling us not to be deceived or confused about when it is that Christ returns.  Apparently, some folks misunderstand 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.  

3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

First of all, who is the son of perdition?  You need to know this (study it out if you don’t).  The son of perdition is Satan (Lucifer himself).  Jesus Christ, the King of kings, does NOT return until the great apostasy (falling away) occurs, which is  AFTER Satan comes claiming to be Christ.  You need to understand clearly that the antichrist, who is Satan himself, comes at the 6th trump and that Jesus Christ, at His Second Coming, comes at the 7th trump.  

Don’t be deceived.

   in Christ, Selah 

FC0514B3-39DB-4A78-A5A7-E2FE6D887C72.gif.df2514a7e2e714c1c5ea6a594321c3d3.gif

 

 

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22 hours ago, Selah7 said:

Greetings, siblings . . .

There’s no way to 
misinterpret who it is that comes first after Paul describes it so completely and plainly.  Read on…

2 Thes. 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

The topic being discussed here is "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,” and our gathering back to Him.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

What is Paul saying here?  He’s telling us not to be deceived or confused about when it is that Christ returns.  Apparently, some folks misunderstand 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.  

3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

First of all, who is the son of perdition?  You need to know this (study it out if you don’t).  The son of perdition is Satan (Lucifer himself).  Jesus Christ, the King of kings, does NOT return until the great apostasy (falling away) occurs, which is  AFTER Satan comes claiming to be Christ.  You need to understand clearly that the antichrist, who is Satan himself, comes at the 6th trump and that Jesus Christ, at His Second Coming, comes at the 7th trump.  

Don’t be deceived.

   in Christ, Selah 

FC0514B3-39DB-4A78-A5A7-E2FE6D887C72.gif.df2514a7e2e714c1c5ea6a594321c3d3.gif

 

 

True. Apostasy and the man of lawlessness are before the coming of Jesus and the gathering.

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On 3/31/2019 at 10:07 AM, OldCoot said:

I would ask then, what is the purpose of the tribulation period?  What is its ultimate goal? Who is its major focus?

There are a minimum of three interpretations of Revelation's prediction of tribulation.

One is the standard retribution explanation.  God is angry and vents His wrath on a SINful world.   Nothing comes of it but death and destruction except that the story line sells a lot of books.  Everybody wants somebody ELSE to be punished.

Another is the primary explanation - virulent anti-semitism.  Supposedly God sends the tribulation to terrify Jews into joining a gentile (non-Jews) congregation.  It hasn't worked in thousands and thousands of years, but because they hate Jews a lot of otherwise kind and docile Church types love to embrace it.  One should be reminded that German Nazis of the 1930's and 1940's were nice people - just ask one of them.

Still another explanation for the tribulation are curious references made in 1 Thessalonians, Isaiah, Hosea, John and of course Revelation that the earth itself would groan and writhe like a woman in labor.  These are strange because they aren't strictly pointing to human social upheaval (which seems to always be upset about something). The stars in their courses in the sky seem to be aligned in odd configurations too.  The implication, of course, is that something of astronomical importance is about to happen on planet Earth.

Still other  interpretations imply some sort of local war centering upon Eretz Israel.  This much is plausible, but not a welcome scenario to my way of thinking.  Enough already with war against Israel.

MY PROBLEM with anti-semitic versions of Tribulation interpretations is that they are based upon a fifteenth century Roman Catholic book called FUTURISM.  Written by Francisco Ribera and approved by the Vatican FUTURISM proposes all the Fundamentalist rubbish that is commonly accepted today as proper interpretation of the Tribulation and other anomalies of the End Times.  

In my opinion, there indeed was a terrible Tribulation that engulfed Jewish folks.  It is called the Holocaust.  The church seems to have forgotten how insanely awful those years were.  

Revelation predicts a 7 year period of tribulation that engulfs the Jewish community.  The holocaust generally ran the course of SEVEN YEARS of the most intense  persecution the world has ever seen.  It began in November 1938 (Kristallnacht/Crystal night) and continued unabated until the summer of 1944 when the first concentration camp near Lublin, Poland was liberated by the Red Army.  (btw, western allied leaders did not believe the initial Soviet reports)

Does the world need ANOTHER HOLOCAUST?

It does if you buy the trash put out by Fundamentalist interpreters of End Times prophecy.   Enough already !!!!!

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

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On 3/31/2019 at 9:47 AM, choir loft said:

 I like the quote, but disagree with its application.

Why would God "beat the living snot out of the world?"    You left that part out.

God is the Lord of history, while man is Lord of nature.  

The Lord of nature has botched the job.   The Lord of history has patiently waited for man to straighten out the mess he's made, but has observed that man is unwilling to do so.  Consequently the corrections that need to be applied will of necessity be painful and bloody.   History has shown over and over again that when man refuses to correct abuse blood is always required of him - always.   You know this as well as I do.  Christ will not return until the full measure of blood has been counted.  

Jesus likened the tribulation to a woman in childbirth.  

Shall God murder the expectant mother and deliver the child by methods other than those of natural process?  Shall God deliver His kingdom like a premature infant?  He will not, if Biblical prophecy is considered to be true.  Everything God has promised will happen at the appropriate time - including the Second Coming.

The argument is about the rapture, not the Second Coming.  That's another demonic twist rapture fans will refuse to admit.   

The rapture is about dinner in the sky prior to ... during... or following trouble on earth.   It has nothing to do with depending upon Christ in the midst of trouble - nothing to do with good courage in the saving grace of God promised to all who will accept it.  In point of fact, rapture fans REJECT God's offer of grace in trouble.  They won't admit to that either.   No liar likes to be called a liar and no coward likes to be be reminded of his lack of backbone.   Christianity is about courage and a resolute heart in hope of the future - not about escaping it. Rapture fans seek to run away from it - like cowards.  I welcome trouble because in it I shall discover Christ's strong arm to save.  Rapture fans seek no part of this discovery.

The Second Coming is about God putting His foot upon the earth so as to bring personal and political wickedness to a screeching halt.  All three major religions accept this in theory.  Their application, however, is somewhat different.   Rapture fans miss the point entirely because they think they'll be having TV dinner in the sky as they watch the mayhem on earth like a celestial version of the Evening News.  Christianity isn't a spectator sport !!!

Nothing could be further from the truth, from logic, or from prophecy itself than the rapture doctrine.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

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On 5/4/2022 at 5:20 AM, Selah7 said:

The son of perdition is Satan (Lucifer himself).

There are only two mentions of a Son of Perdition in the Bible: 1) Judas Iscariot (John 17:12), and 2) the one to come per 2 Thes. 2.

Now, Judas was a man, although for a time he was possessed by Satan. John 13:27 There is no reason at all to believe that that Latter Day Son of Perdition will be any different. Unless you can convincingly prove to us otherwise.

The most likely candidate for the latter SoD is the King of the North of Daniel 11:40-45. For a further look at this person, go here:

17. The Son of Perdition Is a Patsy

Shows that 2 Thes. 2:3’s Son of Perdition will follow in the pattern of Judas, the Bible’s only other Son of Perdition; contrary to common misconceptions about his role in the End Times.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1097-the-son-of-perdition-is-a-patsy/

Excerpt from the above blog:

The Son of Perdition for our age, a.k.a. the King of the North, will similarly be used as a patsy. He will invade the Middle East, seemingly from the north through Syria, then occupy Israel and subdue Islamic North Africa. Dan. 11:40-43 This Satan-deluded god-man will bring his forces from Europe by means of “ships of Chittim.” Num. 24:23-24 His invasion will inflame the rest of the world, particularly the peoples of Islamic and Jewish Middle East, but also peoples “from the east” – probably Iran and/or China, “and from the north” – Syriaʼs ally Russia. Dan. 11:44 “He shall [then] plant the tents of his pavilion between the seas at the glorious holy mountain [that is, the Temple Mount: this will be the Abomination of Desolation for our age], but shall come to his end, and no one will help him.” Dan. 11:45

Like Judas, this patsy will quickly end up dead and despised, because his usefulness to Satan will be over. Satanʼs sole plan for him is to cause world-ending chaos, that is, the Great Tribulation. Dan. 12:1; Matt. 24:15, 21 This will cause the collapse of the current worldʼs political system, and set the stage for “a New World Order,” that is, the Beast Kingdom – in which kingdom the Son of Perdition will have no part at all.

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On 5/8/2022 at 3:53 PM, WilliamL said:

There are only two mentions of a Son of Perdition in the Bible: 1) Judas Iscariot (John 17:12), and 2) the one to come per 2 Thes. 2.

Now, Judas was a man, although for a time he was possessed by Satan. John 13:27 There is no reason at all to believe that that Latter Day Son of Perdition will be any different. Unless you can convincingly prove to us otherwise.

The most likely candidate for the latter SoD is the King of the North of Daniel 11:40-45. For a further look at this person, go here:

17. The Son of Perdition Is a Patsy

Shows that 2 Thes. 2:3’s Son of Perdition will follow in the pattern of Judas, the Bible’s only other Son of Perdition; contrary to common misconceptions about his role in the End Times.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1097-the-son-of-perdition-is-a-patsy/

Excerpt from the above blog:

The Son of Perdition for our age, a.k.a. the King of the North, will similarly be used as a patsy. He will invade the Middle East, seemingly from the north through Syria, then occupy Israel and subdue Islamic North Africa. Dan. 11:40-43 This Satan-deluded god-man will bring his forces from Europe by means of “ships of Chittim.” Num. 24:23-24 His invasion will inflame the rest of the world, particularly the peoples of Islamic and Jewish Middle East, but also peoples “from the east” – probably Iran and/or China, “and from the north” – Syriaʼs ally Russia. Dan. 11:44 “He shall [then] plant the tents of his pavilion between the seas at the glorious holy mountain [that is, the Temple Mount: this will be the Abomination of Desolation for our age], but shall come to his end, and no one will help him.” Dan. 11:45

Like Judas, this patsy will quickly end up dead and despised, because his usefulness to Satan will be over. Satanʼs sole plan for him is to cause world-ending chaos, that is, the Great Tribulation. Dan. 12:1; Matt. 24:15, 21 This will cause the collapse of the current worldʼs political system, and set the stage for “a New World Order,” that is, the Beast Kingdom – in which kingdom the Son of Perdition will have no part at all.

Without going into extreme detail, much of your scenario of End Time invasion of Israel has already taken place.

The invasion of Israel, which continued through the land into Egypt, was Greek - lead by a fellow named Alexander.   The predictions of Daniel are so explicit that many deny Daniel wrote them at all.  The Greeks were eventually evicted during the Maccabean Revolt.  Their liberation of Jerusalem and the abomination of desolation of the temple that inspired the revolution is celebrated each year during the festival of Hanukkah.   Protestants generally rely upon their ignorance of Jewish history and the Tanakh to promote false doctrine regarding these events.

Daniel also describes the philosophy of this arrogant deceiver.  

He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. - Daniel 7:25

We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” -Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50 

To this day both the Roman Catholic church and the Protestant church follow the Vatican into SIN by breaking the 4th commandment.  The appropriate day assigned by God to worship is Saturday, not Sunday.   Nobody cares......

He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. - Daniel 7:25

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth." Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V.

The Book of Revelation performed in history; (look it up)

Head wound - death of Pope (Revelation 13:3)
In December 1797 a riot took place in Rome and a Brigadier General that had been sent to Rome by Napoleon as part of the diplomatic mission, was killed. Napoleon then sent forces to Rome, defeated the papal forces around Pope Pius VI, took Pope Pius VI prisoner and transported him to Valence where he died in 1799. 

Healing the wound.....

Lateran Treaty - The Lateran Treaty, also called Lateran Pact of 1929, treaty (effective June 7, 1929, to June 3, 1985)

The Lateran Pacts signed by Mussolini on 11 February 1929, had three parts: a political treaty (giving the Vatican its own micro-state), a financial convention (giving the Vatican reparations) and a concordat (giving privileges within Italy, for instance by letting the Church influence public education).

Mussolini's government also granted the renewed Vatican City a large sum of money to begin operations.  Worldwide headlines celebrated the restoration.

THE CURRENT scenario of End Times events is false.  

It was originally written by Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera as a rebuttal against the Protestant Reformation.  The purpose of his book, titled FUTURISM, was to extend the prophecies of the Bible into a distant future where the predicted events would be obfuscated by RCC dogma.  

The Protestant Reformation fathers all agreed that the Roman Catholic church IS the anti-christ religious system predicted by Daniel and Revelation and that the Pope IS the man of evil portrayed there.   In the mid-19th century the RCC doctrine was given a new coat of paint and presented to American protestants by John Nelson Darby as DISPENSATIONALISM.   It remains the dogma of the day - Catholic lies notwithstanding.

The time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7) is also referred to as the Tribulation.  The Tribulation has been interpreted as a period of 7 years wherein Jews are persecuted as never before or again in history.  This event has already happened and is called The Holocaust.   

The Holocaust began in earnest with the Nazi persecution on Kristallnacht (crystal night) in the fall of 1938 and ended in the spring of 1945.  During this SEVEN YEAR PERIOD German murder of innocent Jews continued unabated on an industrial scale unprecedented in all of human history.  

The current RCC & protestant interpretation of End Times events ignores The Holocaust entirely and even hopes for it to happen AGAIN.  This disgusting attitude ought to be rejected by any human being with even a modicum of decency, yet it is thoroughly embraced by the church.  There is not a greater example of satanic influence upon Christian doctrine available.  Indeed the spirit of anti-Christ lives in the church and its religious system.

The truth is that the second coming of Jesus Christ is much much closer than anyone suspects.

that's me, hollering from the choir l0ft....

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On 5/10/2022 at 6:57 AM, choir loft said:

Without going into extreme detail, much of your scenario of End Time invasion of Israel has already taken place.

The invasion of Israel, which continued through the land into Egypt, was Greek - lead by a fellow named Alexander.

Hardly. Daniel 11:45-12:1ff. were not fulfilled in the days of Alexander the Great. And since they were not fulfilled, then neither were verses 40-44.

Remember, verse 40 begins with the words "At the time of the end..." -- this eliminates Alexander as being the King of the North.

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