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Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position


George

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On 5/16/2022 at 3:09 PM, WilliamL said:

Hardly. Daniel 11:45-12:1ff. were not fulfilled in the days of Alexander the Great. And since they were not fulfilled, then neither were verses 40-44.

Remember, verse 40 begins with the words "At the time of the end..." -- this eliminates Alexander as being the King of the North.

References to the time of the end have been typically interpreted to mean the distant future.  

However, the context of the passages in Daniel you've quoted is not the case.  It's a clear reference to and end of a time of battle and/or occupation of the land by foreign powers (Greek).  Jewish tradition is heavily influenced by that time period - a time (inter-testimental period) which Christians who pretend to interpret the Bible deliberately ignore.  Such an understanding is important so as to correctly understand Jesus' words as well as the culture in which He spoke them.  Many who scoff at Daniel's words deny its predictions of future events altogether.  

For instance, the Jewish Tanakh (OT) is organized into three sections: Law, Prophets & Writings.  Daniel isn't grouped with the prophets (Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc.).  It's organized with the writings (Psalms, Chronicles, Kings, Proverbs, etc.)  I can't pin down the reasons for this.  I've even asked a rabbi about the rationale for it.  I suspect the true reasons are because so much of Daniel's words point directly to the coming of ha-mashiach (the anointed One - the Christ).

My point here is that Daniel's chapters 11 & 12 are referring to political and military influences in the context of a particular point in time.  "At the time of the end" therefore refers to the end of that period of political disruption.  

It does not endorse Christian hopes for another murderous campaign against innocent Jews in a fictitious future tribulation.  The time of Jacob's Distress predicted by Jeremiah is a direct reference to the Holocaust of the 1930's and 1940's.  There never was a time as horrible as that and God willing never will be again.  

Those that hope for a 2nd holocaust are as demented and cruel as any Nazi that ever walked the earth.

For this reason alone many Jews who would otherwise embrace Christ do not do so.  

Thus that particular aspect of the fundamentalist interpretation of a future tribulation is false.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited by choir loft
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20 hours ago, choir loft said:

It does not endorse Christian hopes for another murderous campaign against innocent Jews in a fictitious future tribulation.  

Which doctrine does endorse or teach this is the case? 

 

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On 6/9/2015 at 3:34 AM, George said:

Hello saints,

 

As I was going over this forum, it occurred to me that there's another position that isn't listed -- the "Pre-Wrath" position which is closely associated with the Mid-Tribulation position with a few nuances.

 

If you are a post-tribulation / pre-wrath advocate, use this thread to defend your position.

 

Your brother in the Lord with much agape love,

 

George

 

 

 

The whole RAPTURE thing is rubbish - pre, mid, post, whatever.   It is NOT based upon Biblical context nor is it logical.   

In order to believe this garbage, one must accept certain things to be true and others not true.  One that isn't accepted as true is the origin of the lie in the first place.

Roman Catholic Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera established what is commonly known as the End Times interpretation in his book FUTURISM.  It was published near the end of the 16th century.  

FUTURISM was published as a response to the Protestant Reformation. Every single Protestant theologian of the time REJECTED IT.  The false doctrine includes the identity of the beast, the rapture, a false interpretation of the Tribulation and the true nature of the global false religion (which the Bible identifies as Catholic).

In the mid-19th century American opportunist John Nelson Darby dusted off the old RCC doctrine and added a new coat of American paint to it.  Darby called his work of plagiarism DISPENSATIONALISM.  It featured the same junk as the RCC version; rapture, antisemitic references to the tribulation and so on.  Bible publisher Scofield and evangelist D.L. Moody loved the fiction and pushed it on the American people.

One of the things that's true, but not even considered, is a quote from Jesus in Luke chapter 17.  In verses 34-37 Jesus identifies both those who would be TAKEN, by which power they would be REMOVED and where they would GO.  

They will be TAKEN, not by Rapture, but by DEMONS.  Where will they go, Jesus' disciples asked.  They will be taken to DEATH.   READ THE BIBLE.  It speaks truth.

Shall we painfully argue the point line by line thus anointing the post-modern neo-gnostic protestant church with its own venom and hate?

Interpretations of the Tribulation now hope for a Second Holocaust of murder and persecution of Jews - theoretically convincing them of the love of Jesus.   If the Nazi holocaust couldn't persuade Jews to be good Nazis, then how could a second one persuade them to join a church?   The illogic and hate language used to interpret the Tribulation is beyond any sort of appropriate language.  

Bottom line here is to state the eschatology of the post-modern neo-gnostic church is full of deliberate misquotations and false assumptions.  It ignores the context of the Bible WHICH STATES God doesn't evacuate anybody from Trouble. He sees the faithful THROUGH IT, thus establishing faith as that which God most approves.

The rapture is a doctrine of fools and cowards - not that of Godly men and women who choose to live by faith in God's deliverance THROUGH any trouble.  Did God deliver the Hebrews over the Red Sea or through it?   

Think about it.....

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

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On 8/7/2022 at 2:00 PM, choir loft said:

 

 

The whole RAPTURE thing is rubbish - pre, mid, post, whatever.   It is NOT based upon Biblical context nor is it logical.   

In order to believe this garbage, one must accept certain things to be true and others not true.  One that isn't accepted as true is the origin of the lie in the first place.

Roman Catholic Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera established what is commonly known as the End Times interpretation in his book FUTURISM.  It was published near the end of the 16th century.  

FUTURISM was published as a response to the Protestant Reformation. Every single Protestant theologian of the time REJECTED IT.  The false doctrine includes the identity of the beast, the rapture, a false interpretation of the Tribulation and the true nature of the global false religion (which the Bible identifies as Catholic).

In the mid-19th century American opportunist John Nelson Darby dusted off the old RCC doctrine and added a new coat of American paint to it.  Darby called his work of plagiarism DISPENSATIONALISM.  It featured the same junk as the RCC version; rapture, antisemitic references to the tribulation and so on.  Bible publisher Scofield and evangelist D.L. Moody loved the fiction and pushed it on the American people.

One of the things that's true, but not even considered, is a quote from Jesus in Luke chapter 17.  In verses 34-37 Jesus identifies both those who would be TAKEN, by which power they would be REMOVED and where they would GO.  

They will be TAKEN, not by Rapture, but by DEMONS.  Where will they go, Jesus' disciples asked.  They will be taken to DEATH.   READ THE BIBLE.  It speaks truth.

Shall we painfully argue the point line by line thus anointing the post-modern neo-gnostic protestant church with its own venom and hate?

Interpretations of the Tribulation now hope for a Second Holocaust of murder and persecution of Jews - theoretically convincing them of the love of Jesus.   If the Nazi holocaust couldn't persuade Jews to be good Nazis, then how could a second one persuade them to join a church?   The illogic and hate language used to interpret the Tribulation is beyond any sort of appropriate language.  

Bottom line here is to state the eschatology of the post-modern neo-gnostic church is full of deliberate misquotations and false assumptions.  It ignores the context of the Bible WHICH STATES God doesn't evacuate anybody from Trouble. He sees the faithful THROUGH IT, thus establishing faith as that which God most approves.

The rapture is a doctrine of fools and cowards - not that of Godly men and women who choose to live by faith in God's deliverance THROUGH any trouble.  Did God deliver the Hebrews over the Red Sea or through it?   

Think about it.....

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Your content will need to be approved by a moderator
 

By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him,

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothedf with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds,

And He will send out the angels to gather His elect from the four winds.

Paul and Jesus both say there is a gathering of the saints when Jesus arrives. When Jesus arrives is the question, not if His arrival and hence the gathering, is real or not. 

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On 8/7/2022 at 2:00 PM, choir loft said:

One of the things that's true, but not even considered, is a quote from Jesus in Luke chapter 17.  In verses 34-37 Jesus identifies both those who would be TAKEN, by which power they would be REMOVED and where they would GO.  

They will be TAKEN, not by Rapture, but by DEMONS.  Where will they go, Jesus' disciples asked.  They will be taken to DEATH.   READ THE BIBLE.  It speaks truth.

Luke 17:34 “I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.” 37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?” So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

You testify falsely: there is not a single word about demons here. Nor death. Purely your speculation.

However, we find a hint of the matter here:

Rev. 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. ... 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

and here:

Exodus 19:4 "You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to Myself."

 

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On 8/7/2022 at 1:00 PM, choir loft said:

The whole RAPTURE thing is rubbish - pre, mid, post, whatever.   It is NOT based upon Biblical context nor is it logical.

Hey choir loft,

If this is what you believe, then could you please explain this .....

John 14:2-3:“In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.

“If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also."

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4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Luke 17:34 “I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.” 37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?” So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

You testify falsely: there is not a single word about demons here. Nor death. Purely your speculation.

However, we find a hint of the matter here:

Rev. 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. ... 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

and here:

Exodus 19:4 "You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to Myself."

 

Hi William

If we look in Rev 8:13:

Then I looked, and I heard an eagle  flying in midheaven, saying with a loud voice, “Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!”

The eagle in this passage is more than likely an angel. Eagles are sometimes symbolic of angels.

The key wording here is talking about the gathering. Read all of Luke 17 and you will see. 

So what scripture is saying is...."Wherever the body is ( the church, the believers, the saints, etc) there the angels  gather..... or gather them together"

I think this is a much better interpretation and fit.

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I always wondered why it said "two MEN in one bed", i mean what's up with that?? Was it just a bad translation? Either way i'm thinking it is basically saying there will be those believers and non-believers working and living together when this all suddenly happens. And i have heard at least one preacher/teacher saying how those "taken" are the ones who are deceived by anti-Christ, but that would make these verses an even worse translation. So what's up with these KJV translators anyway, and how come no one ever points this out?? Unless of course this is an accurate translation and we should take it literally as an actual rapture event...even though i still don't believe in a pre-trib rapture.

I just don't like how these verses seem to be either dismissed or ignored by so many who simply can't explain what it really means, and i used to be one of them, but lately i have just been looking for a more accurate translation other than what the KJV is saying...unless of course that was what the orginal manuscripts  literally meant, as in saying one person will suddenly be gone while the other is left?? But I just have to believe there is something more to this with the TWO people scenario, because it just doesn't make sense if a multitude of people are raptured at one time then not all of them would be with or near someone who is left behind, right?

Edited by CaptWalker
Can never get it right the first time...
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7 hours ago, CaptWalker said:

I always wondered why it said "two MEN in one bed", i mean what's up with that?? Was it just a bad translation? Either way i'm thinking it is basically saying there will be those believers and non-believers working and living together when this all suddenly happens. And i have heard at least one preacher/teacher saying how those "taken" are the ones who are deceived by anti-Christ, but that would make these verses an even worse translation. So what's up with these KJV translators anyway, and how come no one ever points this out?? Unless of course this is an accurate translation and we should take it literally as an actual rapture event...even though i still don't believe in a pre-trib rapture.

I just don't like how these verses seem to be either dismissed or ignored by so many who simply can't explain what it really means, and i used to be one of them, but lately i have just been looking for a more accurate translation other than what the KJV is saying...unless of course that was what the orginal manuscripts  literally meant, as in saying one person will suddenly be gone while the other is left?? But I just have to believe there is something more to this with the TWO people scenario, because it just doesn't make sense if a multitude of people are raptured at one time then not all of them would be with or near someone who is left behind, right?

Hi Capt,

A quick survey of a number of translations has "two in one bed", and the ones that have "two men"..... the word "men" is in brackets, meaning that "men" was not in the original manuscripts......(I guess)

7 hours ago, CaptWalker said:

But I just have to believe there is something more to this with the TWO people scenario

Hmmmmm....... 

Maybe it's like when Jesus sent out the disciples in two's.......(thinking out loud)

Or perhaps it has to do with the "virgin parable" where 5 of the 10  ( 1 of 2) were ready.

Just having my morning mojo..... it's still early....

 

Edited by JoeCanada
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16 hours ago, CaptWalker said:

I just don't like how these verses seem to be either dismissed or ignored by so many

I agree, they should not be dismissed or ignored. they just need to be understood. Have you considered that the three scenarios pointed to are indicating different activities that correspond with certain times of the day? 

Tis means that at the same time around the world though it is night one place, mid day in another place and evening elsewhere.

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