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Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position


George

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To get back on topic:

Pre-Wrath, Post-Trib Summary

What takes place during the first 5 Seals of Rev. 6 is the same sequence of events that takes place in Matt. 24, up to the return of Christ "immediately after the Tribulation," 24:29.

Some believers will be killed during the Trib: these are those saints of the 5th Seal "slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held." Rev. 6:9 = Matt. 24:9

Then comes the 6th Seal's heavenly and earthly cataclysms = Matt. 24:29, which come "immediately after the Tribulation."

Then comes Christ in the clouds to gather up his elect = the Rapture, while being seen by every eye (Rev. 1:7), which causes all the unbelievers to mourn, and to flee and hide in fear. Matt. 24:30-31; Rev. 1:7, 6:15-17; Is. 2:10-11, 19-21

At that point, after the Rapture of the Church and during the unbelievers' fear, "the great day of His [God's] Wrath is come" (Rev. 6:17). But "God did not appoint us [the elect] to [His] Wrath," 1 Thes. 5:9, so we've been taken outta here just before.

But at this same time, there is a third group, those of Israel who also see Jesus in the clouds, realize that he is their Messiah "whom they pierced," and therefore demonstrate their repentance and faith in him when they "mourn for him like one mourns for his only son." Zech. 12:10ff.

The very next event in Rev. 7:1-8, which continues on from the earthly perspective of Rev. 6, then tells us of the 144,000 Israelites who are sanctified/sealed in their foreheads "on the earth." Who are these but the repentant ones of Zech. 12:10? For them, it is too late to be raptured, because they were not among "those who were ready" when the Bridegroom came. Matt. 25:10

Then John's view is shifted to heaven, and he is shown 'those who came out of the Great Tribulation' (Rev. 7:14), being those just raptured, "standing before the throne and the before the Lamb, clothed with white robes." Rev. 7:9 These fulfill the promise of Luke 21:36: "Watch, therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things [of the Great Tribulation] and to stand before the Son of Man."

Rev. 8-19 then tells us what will come upon all who were not ready: they must go through the time of God's Wrath, which includes both the Trumpets and the Bowls, during which there will be believers on earth who will be martyred by the Beast. They will arise in the Rev. 20:4 resurrection, after Christ has descended to earth (Rev. 19) and defeated the Beast and kings of the earth.

 

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The seminal event preceding the Day of the Lord is the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel.  - Those are Jesus' Words paraphrased.

  • This seminal event is so big, it is written about three times in Daniel.
  • It involves a single, seminal person who is written about many times as well in Daniel 7:24, 8:24-25, and 11:36-39.  
  • His crime is so big, he is thrown while still alive into the Lake of Fire.
  • Paul says he sets himself up in the Temple and proclaims himself God.
  • Jesus further puts the abomination in the Temple, the Holy Place - which Biblically defined is not a just hill, but the copy of the Temple in Heaven.

- In Daniel 11:31, the setting of a bust of an idol which could not speak, was the abomination.
.........This is the ha-siqqus: a specific abomination; the prefix ha- meaning "the."
.........The example of Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 168 B.C. becomes the archetype for a great abomination.
.........The citing of this near-term prophecy then acts as the lens of dual focus shifting the latter portion of the Man in Linen's prophecy to the end times.
.........The subsequent description of the King of the North does not match Antiochus, nor any past Roman Emperor/Caesar/General.
.........Nor to the actions describe what any past figure has done with matching consequences.

- In Daniel 9:27, Gabriel sets the abomination at the midpoint with desolation.
.........The setting at its middle sets the stage for the one 'seven' happening in halves, and they are quite different, and so they are rightly set apart.
.........This abomination is plural with the suffix -im, which can also show how great it is.  Just as Elohim is great.
.........This abomination is so great, it illicits a direct response from God in the manner of desolations He decrees.
.........The desolations are poured out upon the one who makes desolate.

In Daniel 12:11, the Man in Linen makes a generic reference to the previous prophecy of the abomination/desolation Daniel had been given by Gabriel.
........This is set within the context of verse 7, in answer to "how long" - the Man in Linen says a time, (1 year), times (2 years) and half a time.
........The third mention is the most generic and in the context of one-half of the one 'seven' the Man in Linen adds two more time conditions:
................- 1290 days, which is another prophetic month of 30 days (not a lunar month as the Jews used), with no expressed reason, and-
................- 1335 days, another prophetic month and a half of 45 days - at which time, those who "make it" to that: are blessed.

All three times refer to an end-time abomination of terrible consequence.
An abomination which is set as a precurosr for the Great Tribulation as Jesus detailed in the Olivet Discourse and Revelation 13.


The first half of the one 'seven' is revealed in Revelation chapter 13.
.........1. In verse 2, we see the rise of the fourth terrible beast of Daniel 7
.........2. In verse 3, the beast of a man is introduces as one of its "heads".  The heads are further explained in Revelation chapter 17,
.........3. In verse 5, God (who from Daniel has authority over kings) gives him authority for 42 months.
..................-- This is the first half of the one 'seven'.
.........4. In verse 7, God allows him to overcome us, the Saints.  We are oppressed and wage war upon like today, but worse.
.........5. In verse 11, the false prophet is introduced.
.........6. In verses 14 and 15, it is the false prophet who sets up the talking image of the beast of a man- the anti-Christ.
..................-- The talking image of the man who blasphemes God, who sets himself up as god - IS THE MIDPOINT ABOMINATION.
..................-- This idol is so terrible because it speaks!
.........7. In verse 15 and 16, in conjunction with the beast of a man (v.12), the false prophet declares TWO LAWS.
..................-- These two laws are what make the Great Tribulation so terrible for the Elect.
..................-- If God would not shorten these days by the sudden arrival of the sun/moon/star sign and the Day of the Lord - no Christian would live to see Jesus come on the clouds.

The second half of the one 'seven' is covered in chapters 14-16.
AFTER the ensuing Harvest - which like the gathering of the Elect happens after the midpoint abomination - comes God's Wrath.
.........It follows immediately with the Day of the Lord's Wrath with the First Trumpet's fire and blood.
.........The last of God's Wrath is poured out - and it is directed ultimately and personally at the anti-Christ, who with the false prophet are captured alive at Armageddon (Rev 19).

This ends the one 'seven' and brings us to the 30 and 45 day periods.
.........According to Zechariah 8:23, the survivors follow the Jews to their God.  (The first period of time.)
.........In Isaiah 4, they encamp in the Sukkot at Mount Zion.  (The second period of time.)
.........For those who "make it" the whole 1335 days after the midpoint abomination is set up in the Temple - they enter Jesus' Sabbath Millennium reign of the Saints.
.........A whole new worship system described in the latter chapters of Ezekiel focuses on the newly anointed Temple as their relationship with Jesus goes on for a thousand years.

Edited by Marcus O'Reillius
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19 hours ago, Yowm said:

Anyone care to recommend a linked article or book that FAIRLY examines BOTH positions, the pre-trib and pre-wrath (yet post trib view), comparing both?

I realize there is confusion with the word 'tribulation'; as for some it refers to the entire 7 years whereas for others  it is the initial 3 1/2 yrs.

In this case the initial 3 1/2 years are meant.

Here's a couple links to the truth: Mine scripture with determination. Trust and wait on the Holy Spirit. 

All Pre Trib theology is unfair to the context of scripture. Why trust a Pre Wrath apologist? The truth of the matter is in Scripture. The only trustworthy source for questions of this kind.

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20 hours ago, Yowm said:

I realize there is confusion with the word 'tribulation'; as for some it refers to the entire 7 years whereas for others  it is the initial 3 1/2 yrs.
In this case the initial 3 1/2 years are meant.

I agree that there is a lot of confusion inherent in how people commonly refer to the one 'seven' as the "Tribulation Period."  As if it is somehow to be avoided...

One reason is the nature of 'tribulation' - we all experience it to one degree or another, and there have been times of intense tribulation experienced by those who follow Christ Jesus.

Even today, when Christianity is under attack around the world, even here - you can say we are experiencing 'tribulation.'  And for those who are dying, from their perspective, how could we argue otherwise?  By telling them that as a percentage of world population, the terrible effect of war was felt far greater, and more people died (percentage-wise) during the years of conquest of Attila the Hun?  That hardly makes you feel better when you watch the North Koreans line up your pastor, elders, deacons and faithful on a road and crush them with a steam roller right in front of everyone left, man, woman, and children; in that town.

But as a defined term - there is one time Jesus defines tribulation as being both specific and unique: because it is the worst ever - and never outdone.

This is the Great Tribulation as defined in the Olivet Discourse: His fifth Discourse to the Disciples and as such, applicable to the Church.

Mt 24:15 "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand), ... 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

The important point here is that Jesus sets in verse 15, the starting point of the Great Tribulation.  Setting aside what is directed in specific instructions to those who live in Judea; Jesus sets the order as happening next is Great Tribulation.

This is specific and unique because it is greater than the sacking of Jerusalem by Titus, worse than the onslaught of Attila the Hun, far greater an egregious time of death than Hitler's Holocaust, and worse than any other time of persecution since the beginning of the world - and it will not be repeated.

This only starts with the midpoint abomination of Daniel 9:27 which is further revealed in Revelation 13:14-15.
And on the heels of that abominable talking idol of the anti-Christ, who is written so much about in prophecy so we will recognize him when he comes - are two laws which we are told not to obey:
1. Worship or die
2. Take the Mark of the Beast or don't buy or sell.

This sets up a time when only those who don't follow those rules suffer.
The only ones who would be foolish enough to do so will be utter fools - OR - those who obey God's Commands to us!
The Elect will suffer death by execution and death by dehydration and starvation.
IF God the Father did not intervene - NO LIFE - and that is no life that is applicable because ONLY the Elect are being truly targeted - would survive (as Satan has been frustrated by not capturing all the Jews - those in Judea who do escape, escape him as well with God's help -- and so he turns his unwanted attention to us - Rev 12:17).

22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

The Greek verb for cut short is an agricultural term for docking an animals tail to a short nub.
- How long could you go without food and water?  Seven days.
- How long could you go without food?  Six weeks.
- Now how long could you go without food and water while they're hunting you down?
Some will be able to hold out... to bunker down; to wait it out, patiently, with much pain as they watch fellow believers fall by the wayside either by succumbing to a vain attempt to save their own life, or paying the ultimate price - dying in one form or fashion for their faith!

This is an unjust death - but one that is called for if we want to experience life ever after with God in Heaven.

Now skipping verses 23-28 which have specific instructions to the Church - Jesus again takes up the linear narrative of the end-times in verse 29.

"But immediately after the tribulation of those days..."

This refers back to the time when the Elect are dying in droves - and not all of us will die!
This is referring back to the very time period Jesus said was unequaled in time.
The event which follows marks the end of the Great Tribulation: the sun/moon.star event which heralds the long-awaited Day of the Lord.

(1) the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
(2) 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.
(3) 31 And He will send forth His angels with A great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

The sun/moon/star event will put the world on notice.  Several things happen here as revealed in the sixth Seal and OT prophecy for the Day of the Lord:
1. And earthquake to shake things up.
2. An unnatural darkening of the sun at noon - the contrast will be most striking.
3. Three Angels will proclaim the Gospel and proclaim the wicked's judgment for their wickedness.  (The wicked hide fearing for their lives.)
4. At night, the moon will not give its natural light but will be reddish.
5. When Jesus comes, He will be preceded by a cosmic fireworks show: a meteor shower.
6. In the evening - it will be light: the scrolling of the sky - the sign of the Son of Man.
7. Jesus arrives as He left and settles on the Mount of Olives, splitting it in two and displacing every geological point on the face of the earth likewise.

After Jesus comes, several more things happen on the second half of the Day of the Lord:
1. The 144,000 are mustered from all over the earth to the newly formed Mount Zion.
2. As they are being prepared, Jesus leaves that locale and goes to the spiritual realm of Paradise and resurrects the Dead in Christ.
3. Now with His Saints, a great multitude of believers from days gone by, He makes His Victory Lap gathering the Elect who remain and are still alive east to west around the globe.
4. With this Harvest of Saints, He delivers them to the Father in Heaven.
5. What follows is His return to Mount Zion, and with the newly sealed 144,000 - the time of Jacob's Trouble begins and Israel will be cleansed and set up as a rock upon which to ultimately smash the nations.
6. This is matched with the first Trumpet of God's Wrath.
7. Following the carnage, Jesus returns to Heaven as portrayed in Isaiah 63:1-6.

The Great Tribulation is a specific and unique, short period of time
- coming after the midpoint of the one 'seven' and ending soon afterward
- whenever the "Unknown Day of the Lord" is kicked off with its heralding celestial signs.

I can walk anyone through the Scriptural references for what I have presented.  I feel confident that my analysis is, for the most part as I can tell: correct.  I am unaware of any errors within it, but that does not mean I am not mistaken.  I am enthused however, that everything that is written is held intact with this viewpoint because I have melded together the major linear narratives and kept them intact - their order is not violated by blending them together in a sequence of events analysis around specific and unique events.

And my research, solving this giant mensa puzzle, as led to be a Pre-Wrath adherent.
I welcome honest, and specific constructive criticism.  I require other like minds to sharpen mine.
Thank-you for allowing me to present this discourse.

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10 hours ago, Yowm said:

And what position have you found to be the 'truth' regarding the timing of the rapture?

Well....the only position that is specific, unambiguous, explicit and eminently conspicuous is found in Matt 24. To wit:

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. "

According to the words of Jesus, whose words are the only absolute truth in the universe, the Sign of His coming appears in conjunction with five events: The physical appearance of Jesus in the clouds, the mourning of the people of earth, the dispatch of the angels, the loud trumpet, and the gathering of the elect. No other scenario is possible. The conspicuous nature of Jesus coming and the gathering of the elect in Matt 24 confirms this is the only gathering of the elect to occur in future history. In other words the great detail given here shows the profound nature of Jesus coming and the gathering of His people. Why then would there be a secret, unmentioned coming and gathering at a further unmentioned time? Below you'll see the evidence for the timing of the gathering.

Since the umbrella event of the Sign of the Son of Man ushers in the other events the gathering of the elect (rapture) can only occur after the Sign appears. The question, of course, is the timing of the gathering of the elect (rapture).  Just before Jesus relates the Great Coming of the Messiah He tells the disciples the timing. Starting in verse 14 of the 24 chapter of the gospel of Matthew Jesus said the end will not come till the gospel of the kingdom is preached to all nations. But that's probably not as specific as your looking for. In verse 15 Jesus says, 15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—..."

"When you see..." Jesus said. Then he said, "Run!" At this point Jesus is speaking to those in Judea as this is where the A of D is going to occur. Now to the rest of us he says, "21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

Here Jesus refers to the elect. He also refers to the elect in verse 31 as being on earth when the Sign appears in heaven. The days of great distress come upon the same elect as are gathered by the angels in verse 31. So now the timing is set. After the A of D and after the days of great distress and after the Sign of the Coming of the Son of Man. Notice in Matt 24:36-39 Jesus speaks about the wrath of God. Jesus refers to the flood, wrath of God, and compares it to the language in 36-39. This wrath occurs after Sign of Coming of the Son of Man and the gathering of the elect.

Now we have the order: A of D, days of distress, the Sign, Jesus physical appearance, the gathering of the elect, and then "they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man."

That's about as close as we can get for timing from Matt 24. Since the days of great distress occur after the A of D, and we understand the duration of the beast to be 42 months following the A of D, and Jesus says these days will be cut short, we can assume that Jesus will return sometime before the end of the 42 months of the beasts reign. How much is "cut short"? Hard to say. A month? Six months? A year? Can't say.  So far I have not yet seen any scripture that conclusively narrows the timing further than the above.

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7 hours ago, Yowm said:

Thanks for your theory.

It's neither a general proposition nor a proposed explanation. It's not a set of facts that belong to me. I didn't conjure a scenario. It's actual fact taken right from the words of Jesus. In fact, Matt 24 is the only outline of the major events of the end of the age. Some passages in the Epistles confirm the order of events as first outlined by Jesus, but Matt 24 is the standard bearer. I see where the confusion lies. Many of us are inured to the predilection of private interpretation of prophecy in the decidedly un-christlike religious community. Because of this many are left in swirling confusion over prophectic fact, and indeed a great deal of scripture is viewed with visceral suspicion. Here's a prophecy that has come to pass; 

2 Timothy 4:3 "For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

This is the existing condition of the church of God today.

For close to three decades I have looked into the timing of Jesus return. I was taught Pre Trib from the beginning and studied several of the authors and listened to the advocates preach this idea. But as I tried to find the correlations between what I was being taught and the relevant quoted passages in scripture, I realized there were no connections between  Pre Trib and what scripture records. The same for Mid Trib. So logically listening to man to find the truth of prophecy came to a crashing halt.

The truth of God is not the mind or heart of man. No man is correct concerning prophecy. 

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5 minutes ago, Diaste said:

It's neither a general proposition nor a proposed explanation. It's not a set of facts that belong to me. I didn't conjure a scenario. It's actual fact taken right from the words of Jesus. In fact, Matt 24 is the only outline of the major events of the end of the age. Some passages in the Epistles confirm the order of events as first outlined by Jesus, but Matt 24 is the standard bearer. I see where the confusion lies. Many of us are inured to the predilection of private interpretation of prophecy in the decidedly un-christlike religious community. Because of this many are left in swirling confusion over prophectic fact, and indeed a great deal of scripture is viewed with visceral suspicion. Here's a prophecy that has come to pass; 

2 Timothy 4:3 "For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

This is the existing condition of the church of God today.

For close to three decades I have looked into the timing of Jesus return. I was taught Pre Trib from the beginning and studied several of the authors and listened to the advocates preach this idea. But as I tried to find the correlations between what I was being taught and the relevant quoted passages in scripture, I realized there were no connections between  Pre Trib and what scripture records. The same for Mid Trib. So logically listening to man to find the truth of prophecy came to a crashing halt.

The truth of God is not the mind or heart of man. No man is correct concerning prophecy. 

Well said.  We have similar backgrounds as pertains to study time and the transition out of the pretrib fallacy.

I personally see "the sign of the Son of Man" in Matthew 24 as corresponding to what is seen by those on earth at the sixth seal, and "the Son of Man" being seen years later, immediately following the seventh trumpet.  The Noah passage I see as speaking more to a lack of awareness than to the timing of God's wrath.  Jesus is giving signs for the disciples to recognize concerning His return which is why God's wrath is left out of Matthew 24, and in my opinion, explains why Jesus skipped from the sixth seal to the seventh trumpet in verse 30; the seventh seal contains the wrath of God.

  • And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.  Matthew 24:30

What do you see, if anything, that conflicts with that view?

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27 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Jesus skipped from the sixth seal to the seventh trumpet in verse 30; the seventh seal contains the wrath of God.

What do you see, if anything, that conflicts with that view?

1. That would violate the linearity of the Seal/Scroll chronology of Revelation chapters 4-11 (exclusive of 11:1-13).

2. Why are they mourning?  If you read a parallel account to the broad overview of the Seal/Scroll chronology, where the sixth Seal's sun/moon/star event lines up so well with Mt 24:29 - in the detailed account of just the one 'seven' with the Rise and the Fall of the anti-Christ in Revelation chapters 13-16 (inclusive) - then, in chapter 14, preceding the Harvest, three Angels warn the earth that Jesus is coming.  The first completes Mt 24:14 and the other two tell the wicked what's in store for them.  So of course they're not exactly excited to see Him come - it's why they're hiding and expecting His Wrath to fall next in Revelation 6:17 --

-- But that's not exactly the NEXT thing that is going to happen!  The Rapture is.  This is consistent with putting Mt 24:30 and then Mt 24:31 in order together - and buttressed as well as by linking the two events together as Paul does in 2Th 2:1

-- However, in Revelation 14:17-20 - following the Harvest - IS God's Wrath in the form of the FIRST Trumpet.

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56 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

1. That would violate the linearity of the Seal/Scroll chronology of Revelation chapters 4-11 (exclusive of 11:1-13).

2. Why are they mourning?  If you read a parallel account to the broad overview of the Seal/Scroll chronology, where the sixth Seal's sun/moon/star event lines up so well with Mt 24:29 - in the detailed account of just the one 'seven' with the Rise and the Fall of the anti-Christ in Revelation chapters 13-16 (inclusive) - then, in chapter 14, preceding the Harvest, three Angels warn the earth that Jesus is coming.  The first completes Mt 24:14 and the other two tell the wicked what's in store for them.  So of course they're not exactly excited to see Him come - it's why they're hiding and expecting His Wrath to fall next in Revelation 6:17 --

-- But that's not exactly the NEXT thing that is going to happen!  The Rapture is.  This is consistent with putting Mt 24:30 and then Mt 24:31 in order together - and buttressed as well as by linking the two events together as Paul does in 2Th 2:1

-- However, in Revelation 14:17-20 - following the Harvest - IS God's Wrath in the form of the FIRST Trumpet.

I see Revelation 6-11 as chronological with Jesus returning in chapter 11.  Chapters 12 -19 I see as adding detail to the framework of 6-11.

A couple of things to consider:

  • At the sixth seal, do people actually see the Son of Man?  Or is the sky rolled back to where people get a glimpse into the spiritual realm showing the throne room scene in chapter 5?
  • At the sixth seal people hide in fear of the coming wrath.  At the return of Christ everyone mourns.  I don't see fear as being synonymous with mourning.
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5 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Well said.  We have similar backgrounds as pertains to study time and the transition out of the pretrib fallacy.

I personally see "the sign of the Son of Man" in Matthew 24 as corresponding to what is seen by those on earth at the sixth seal, and "the Son of Man" being seen years later, immediately following the seventh trumpet.  The Noah passage I see as speaking more to a lack of awareness than to the timing of God's wrath.  Jesus is giving signs for the disciples to recognize concerning His return which is why God's wrath is left out of Matthew 24, and in my opinion, explains why Jesus skipped from the sixth seal to the seventh trumpet in verse 30; the seventh seal contains the wrath of God.

  • And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.  Matthew 24:30

What do you see, if anything, that conflicts with that view?

 

Thanks. I sometimes wonder how many have a similar path to ours. I bet it's quite a few.

I agree, the passage is about lack of awareness of the times but Jesus also references the wrath of God through the destruction of the flood. What I'm saying about the Noah reference is just that wrath comes after Jesus return (which we know) and the gathering of the elect. Since Jesus said the days before His return would mirror the days of Noah and, "...they knew not until the flood came and took them away..." and, "That's how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.", I'm showing Jesus placed wrath after the gathering for the Pre Trib crowd, just like in the days of Noah.

I have never been very comfortable with order or timing of the seals, trumps and bowls in relation to Matt 24 or Luke 21. Maybe because I haven't really looked into it. What strikes me about the seals, trumps and bowls however is a similar description repeated in Revelation. I'll highlight the similarities.

Rev 6

12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth,as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Rev 11

15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.” 16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. 18 The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small—and for destroying those who destroy the earth.” 19 Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.

Rev 16

17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. 19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath. 20 Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. 21 From the sky huge hailstones, each weighing about a hundred pounds, fell on people. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.

The 6th seal is the cosmic signs preceding the Sign of Jesus coming, we agree on that. The seventh trump contains the wrath of God, among other important elements, we agree there as well. What stands out to me is the  similarity between the 6th seal and the 7th bowl. The great earthquake, islands and mountains, gone. Then the 7th trump shares similarities with the 6th seal and the 7th bowl. But further than that there are the amazing parallels between the 7th trump and the 7th bowl: the lightning, rumbling, thunder, earthquake and the severe hailstorm and wrath. This leads me to think the 7th trump and the 7th bowl are the same event. Add to that the great earthquake and the removal of the islands and mountains from the 6th seal, which is identical to similar events of the 7th bowl, and it seems as though the 6th seal, 7th trump and 7th bowl work together and coincide.

That would mean this triad of judgement and wrath comes to completion together. That doesn't mean it's all happening at once. Seals begin to open, then trumps begin to sound their song later, even later the bowls are poured, but the song ends at the same time. From what I read anyway...

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