Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[Marcus O'Reillius]

18 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

The elect of the Church will not endure the "Daniel Test," nor anything having to do with the Beast Kingdom, all of which do not begin until the period of the 7 Trumpets. As you correctly state, "The Day of the Lord happens before ANY of the Trumpet Judgments go forth," and, "The Church is not to endure these conditions."

Oh no, the Elect WILL endure the Daniel Test.  Only the Church of Philadelphia, one of two "good" churches, is watched over (tereo ek) during that period and - rather than be an iron-clad provision to prevent it from enduring that test, the promise with God's watchfulness is that the church of Philadelphia will not be lost eternally - they will not fail the test and worship the abominable talking idol.

The Church is subject to the two laws that the false prophet hands down with the erection of the talking image.

We are told by example of what will happen to those who comply with those laws - NOT to follow either law - which puts our immediate, and physical lives at stake and apt to be lost in the normal sense.  BUT ONLY BY LOSING OUR LIFE FOR HIS SAKE, DO WE INHERIT LIFE FOREVER.

The oppression during the first half, which the Church will experience in Revelation 13:7 will be outdone by the Great Tribulation which follows - AND - NEITHER of these are the Wrath of God -  We are subject to be handed over for oppression and persecution!  We are hated and persecuted not because of who we are, but because the wicked hate Jesus first and foremost.  (The Church does not have to face God's Wrath because of our faith in Christ Jesus justifies us before the Father as 'not guilty'.)

The Church WILL HAVE TO PATIENTLY ENDURE the Great Tribulation.  That is said over and over.
Rev 13:10 This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God's people. (NIV)
Rev 14:12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus. (NIV)

These are in direct application to the very time I am referring - the first half of the one 'seven' and the Great Tribulation.

Remember:
Rev 14:9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice,, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." 12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. (NASB)

Edited July 26, 2016 by Marcus O'Reillius

[WilliamL]

And of course, this is where we differ greatly. Scripture tells us that:

The Beast ascends out of the Abyss. The Abyss is opened at the 5th Trumpet.

The Day of the Lord takes place at the 6th Seal, and the elect ascend at that point in the Rapture. Both the beginning of the Day of the Lord at the Last Shofar/Trumpet and the Rapture take place "after the tribulation." Thus, the Trib ends before the Trumpets, before the Beast ascends.

The elect experience nothing of the Beast Kingdom, including the economic system. Only the Remnant are still around during that time.

 

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

And of course, this is where we differ greatly. Scripture tells us that:

The Beast ascends out of the Abyss. The Abyss is opened at the 5th Trumpet.

The Day of the Lord takes place at the 6th Seal, and the elect ascend at that point in the Rapture. Both the beginning of the Day of the Lord at the Last Shofar/Trumpet and the Rapture take place "after the tribulation." Thus, the Trib ends before the Trumpets, before the Beast ascends.

The elect experience nothing of the Beast Kingdom, including the economic system. Only the Remnant are still around during that time.

 

Maybe.  Maybe not.  I don't think we have too long of a wait to find out.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The Beast ascends out of the Abyss. The Abyss is opened at the 5th Trumpet.

True, but this fact is not needed for saying the Rapture happens before God's Wrath. 
You, however, have a different point in mind, and I see where you're forming your opinion.
 

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The Day of the Lord takes place at the 6th Seal, and the elect ascend at that point in the Rapture.

Agreed.
 

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Both the beginning of the Day of the Lord at the Last Shofar/Trumpet and the Rapture take place "after the tribulation."

Agreed.  As the sun/moon/star event, which precedes the Day of the Lord (Mt 24:29), comes "immediately after the distress of those days..."
 

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Thus, the Trib ends before the Trumpets, before the Beast ascends.

I would say the Great Tribulation ends WHEN the Elect are taken up.
As the sixth Seal comes before the Trumpets
 

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The elect experience nothing of the Beast Kingdom, including the economic system. Only the Remnant are still around during that time.

In order to say that, you'd have to define the "Beast Kingdom" as being coincidental with the demonic infestation which comes with the opening of the abyss.

I reject this new definition of yours.

What we have is the King of the "North".  He is king of a kingdom.
Other "Kingdoms" listed in end-time prophecy include the "South" and the "East."
Jesus does not convey a "Beast Kingdom" to John as a thing.

Now in Revelation 13, we see the formation of the fourth terrible beast which is the conglomeration of three nations.
This is the Kingdom of the North.
The beast of a man takes control of this fourth terrible beast.
IF you want to say 'beast kingdom" - THEN this is it.

In Revelation 13, we have the following information:
5 There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty- two months was given to him. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.
7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.

1.)  The anti-Christ is given authority by God for the first half of the one 'seven.'
2.) During that time, God also gives him authority to make war against US and to overcome US.
3.)  Finally, right at the end, the anti-Christ will win the world, having conquered the South and East - only to realize a Pyrrhic victory when Jesus captures him and the false prophet alive at Armageddon.

In addition, the midpoint abomination - the talking image of Rev 13:14-15 - sets up the very Great Tribulation Jesus warned us about in the Olivet Discourse!

This is buttressed by the second of the two twin parallel accounts found in Revelation chapter 12:
17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
This is at the beginning of the second half.
THAT"S US - and the rage he expends upon us is the Great Tribulation.

So we ARE in the kingdom of the beast, and you're living in it right now. 
- and pass me a joint bro, I'll just get Colorado high and never mind... that's just one small part of the nature of the "falling away" which leads to wholesale worship of the beast of a man.

[WilliamL]

56 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Thus, the Trib ends before the Trumpets, before the Beast ascends.

I would say the Great Tribulation ends WHEN the Elect are taken up.

Matt. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened etc.

So the Trib ends, then the heavenly signs take place, and then the Rapture takes place. Very few if any days between the end of the Trib and the Rapture, however.

1 hour ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

What we have is the King of the "North".  He is [will be] king of a kingdom.

Yes, and he -- that is, his human embodiment/possessee --  will be the Son of Perdition. Who meets his end during the epiphaneia of the Parousia, as 2 Thes. 2:8 tells us. And Daniel 11:45 implies. The Parousia is the event of the Rapture. Like Judas, the only other SoP, his time of glory will be brief.

1 hour ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

So we ARE in the kingdom of the beast, and you're living in it right now. 

No, we are in the kingdom of the 6th (some say 7th) head of the Beast. The Beast himself is the 8th. He is still in the Abyss, because the Abyss has not yet been opened. The beast we are now dealing with is one of his spiritual heirs, as it were. A lesser-grade spirit.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

16 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Very few if any days between the end of the Trib and the Rapture, however.

I would say that the sun/moon/star event happens on one day, and the Rapture happens on the very next day, when a "day" begins in Hebrew fashion at sunset."
 

16 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Yes, and he -- that is, his human embodiment/possessee --  will be the Son of Perdition. Who meets his end during the epiphaneia of the Parousia, as 2 Thes. 2:8 tells us. And Daniel 11:45 implies. The Parousia is the event of the Rapture. Like Judas, the only other SoP, his time of glory will be brief.

Here, you make one of a couple of common mistakes many make in reading what Paul wrote.

2Th 2:8b …whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

This one half verse by itself could lead a reader to conclude that the Day of the Lord coincides with the final destruction of the man of lawlessness.  Indeed, without the other multiple accounts of God’s Wrath in the end-times, concluding that a single stroke by the sword emanating from Jesus’ mouth as figuratively represented in Revelation 19:15 finishes the conflagration enveloping the world would be reasonable.  The conventional Post-Tribulation eschatology uses this verse myopically precluding other conditional facts and linear sequences and has the Day of the Lord be either the Day to end all, or lengthens the Day of the Lord to encompass Wrath which is not explicitly connected to it.  Looking at this verse solely leads to battling verses and without keeping the big picture in view, typifies the history of prophetic interpretation without a sequence-of-events paradigm.  Looking at the verbs can shed some light at how a sequence-of-events perspective can view this verse in light of other prophetic timelines.

The verb overthrow comes from anaireō and it means in the nominal sense: “take up,” “take away,” “make an end” (ECB p1631).  Furthermore, the word is a conjunction of aná and hairéō.  hairéō means “to take,” “to win,” “to comprehend,” or “to select” (TDNT p27).  The first part: aná lends either an emphatic meaning or the sense of “up.”  Figuratively, it means to take away violently and so to put to death, kill, slay, or murder.  The use of anaireō here by Paul is in the future tense, indicative mood, and active voice.  Jesus will do this stated as a fact.

The verb destroy comes from katargeō and in the nominal sense it means: “to render inoperative,” “to abolish” (ECB p1659).  Bromiley says, “The provisional disarming of demonic powers will issue in their complete destruction at the return of Christ” for its use in 2Th 2:8.

The man of lawless had been granted authority for forty two months.  That authority culminated at the midpoint abomination.  Immediately afterward, “Who is like God” arises and the Two Witnesses arrive.  By their very nature being unable to be harmed, they upset the previously uncontested rule of the beast of a man.  The first thing that can be suggested by anaireō is that previous authority is violently taken away, especially when the Two Witnesses can consume any person who comes up against them. 

The verb anaireō cannot be used in its normal figurative sense of being put to death, slain, killed, or murdered because the anti-Christ is not killed on the earth.  Whether the first instance of Christ's coming on the Day of the Lord in a Pre-Wrath eschatology or at the last day of the one ‘seven’ at Armageddon even in a classical Post-Trib eschatology; Jesus does not kill the anti-Christ on earth.  This fact of interpretation stands upon Revelation 19:20 where the beast of a man is captured alive, and thrown while still alive into the Lake of Fire along with the false   

To use anaireō in its nominal sense, Jesus would ‘make an end’ of the anti-Christ which suggests a process.  Overthrowing him from his previous authority, removing his “power,” would be first part of the process which would come with the Two Witnesses who defy the anti-Christ; he is powerless over them.  As the end-times proceed under a Pre-Wrath eschatological framework, making an end is a process whereby God’s Wrath reduces the anti-Christ’s world to a shadow of its former self.  Final victory is Pyrrhic; he conquers the Kings of the South and East only to find himself facing the Lord of Hosts which ends with his capture.

Finally then, the anti-Christ is destroyed utterly, and there are many ways to do that. and as some might argue: in stages as well.  He is utterly destroyed on the earth when defeated, and then again for all eternity, in Hell.  He is judged just as is determined in Revelation 11:18, “The time has come for…destroying those who destroy the earth.”  He is judged before God and thrown into the Lake of Fire.

2^nd Thessalonians 2:8 describes a sequence-of-events:

• The man of lawlessness is revealed.

• Jesus will make an end of him.

• He is utterly destroyed.

Taken by itself, 2Th 2:8 could be read as happening very quickly.  However, with additional revelation of God’s Wrath, which Paul does not address other than to assure the Church it does not face it, the Bible expressly states that it takes time; in the case of the first Woe, it takes five months alone.  Other desolations which God has decreed may take longer as will be suggested later so that the entire remaining period of the second half of the one ‘seven’ will go until the end is poured out upon the desolator.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

16 hours ago, WilliamL said:

No, we are in the kingdom of the 6th (some say 7th) head of the Beast. The Beast himself is the 8th. He is still in the Abyss, because the Abyss has not yet been opened. The beast we are now dealing with is one of his spiritual heirs, as it were. A lesser-grade spirit.

This is a thorny issue.  Allow me to offer an alternate view:

The "heads" are the titular heads of a long-lived spiritual entity: Rome.
At the time of the end-times, five have "fallen" - they are long passed, having died.  Hitler was one I'd guess.  
One is - that is presently exists at the time of the end: i.e., the anti-Christ - the central villain in the story of the one 'seven'.
One will be - the future leader Satan raises up after the Millennium rule has ended.  This uprising is short-lived, and results in complete, technically 100% as we would label it, destruction: no Remnant / no survivors.

The ten horns, are the ten "kings" who do not have respective kingdoms first, but only become kings with the formation of the fourth terrible beast.
In an alternate view, they would named as "ministers" who rule the council who coordinates and controls the various body parts and limbs of the fourth terrible beast: the other three beasts who make it up.
It is from this circle of ruling ministers that the little horn, the anti-Christ arises, hamstringing (the actual meaning of 'uproot') three of them, and having sway over them.

The beast itself is an eighth king because it is also a spiritual entity who "rules".
In Revelation 16:13, as the dragon of a nation, - not dragon Satan - it is possessed.
Satan is not this dragon, although he certainly is portrayed as a dragon in Revelation 12:7.
Satan as the consummate demon, needs no demonic possession to guide him.  He directs demonic possession in others to do his bidding.
So the "beast" itself is more than just representative of a generational government of man over the centuries - it has a life of its own, so to speak.

- Now you say the beast is still in the abyss.
I disagree.
The beast of a nation, this dragon-beast-nation, is not only present, he has been around for a long time.

In 2Pe 3:19, Peter writes a revelation Jesus gave to him of His time in the grave: He went from Paradise, where He said to the thief on His Right they would go that day, to a deeper, and probably darker place: the place where spirits from the time of Noah were imprisoned.  This may be in the chasm Jesus described in the only description of where it is that we go when we die in the Bible in Luke 16; which separates Paradise from Hades.

At any rate, those spirits are imprisoned, and Jesus has the key.  He alone can leave Paradise and He is mobile even in death while we are not.  He makes an announcement to those evil spirits.

And with the fifth Trumpet, the demonic is let loose.  I put it to you, that they are the same ones who have been imprisoned for so long.

The demonic spirits let loose with the First Woe are not the same as the dragon-beast-nation we're dealing with when the fourth terrible beast is realized as a literal reality on this earth.
And in my opinion, we are citizens of one of the first nation-beasts to make up that fourth terrible beast - the winged lion whose wings are plucked, and he is set up like a man and a heart of man is given to him.
We are, in my opinion, already squarely in the belly of the beast - or better yet - his mouth piece because that is the part of the fourth terrible beast the first beast of Daniel 7 is in Revelation 13:2.

[WilliamL]

1 hour ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

I would say that the sun/moon/star event happens on one day, and the Rapture happens on the very next day, when a "day" begins in Hebrew fashion at sunset."

Perhaps so. This was case in the OT type at Sinai, when the LORD descended in fire, clouds, smoke and quake on the Sabbath, the 6th of Sivan, and the chosen of Israel went up into his Presence the next day.

1 hour ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

17 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Yes, and he -- that is, his human embodiment/possessee --  will be the Son of Perdition. Who meets his end during the epiphaneia of the Parousia, as 2 Thes. 2:8 tells us. And Daniel 11:45 implies. The Parousia is the event of the Rapture. Like Judas, the only other SoP, his time of glory will be brief.

Here, you make one of a couple of common mistakes many make in reading what Paul wrote.

2Th 2:8b …whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

This one half verse by itself could lead a reader to conclude that the Day of the Lord coincides with the final destruction of the man of lawlessness.  Indeed, without the other multiple accounts of God’s Wrath in the end-times, concluding that a single stroke by the sword emanating from Jesus’ mouth as figuratively represented in Revelation 19:15 finishes the conflagration enveloping the world would be reasonable.

Here you totally read into what I wrote something that I do not believe at all. The end of the latter-day Son of Perdition, like the end of the former Son of Perdition, occurs right about the same time as the exaltation of the Lord in glory. He (the Son of Perdition) winks out of history as an afterthought, no longer a man of any significance -- "rendered inoperative," "brought to nothing," as you correctly interpret 2 Thes. 2:8. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the Lord's descent to earth in Rev. 19 to fight the nations of the Beast.

As has been so often the case, you presume that I teach something that I don't.

1 hour ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

The man of lawless had been granted authority for forty two months.  That authority culminated at the midpoint abomination. 

All of this is your presumption, not supported by any scripture. Paul says nothing about the length of his time, and you should neither.

The 1260 days/42 months period pertains to another person entirely, one who one is exalted by the Beast after the Rapture. Whereas the Son of Perdition ascends before the Rapture, and comes to his end at the Parousia, as Paul clearly tells us. These are two different persons entirely: 1) the Son of Perdition before , and 2) the Little Horn = the Mouth (spokesman) of the Beast after.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

2 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Here you totally read into what I wrote something that I do not believe at all. The end of the latter-day Son of Perdition, like the end of the former Son of Perdition, occurs right about the same time as the exaltation of the Lord in glory. He (the Son of Perdition) winks out of history as an afterthought, no longer a man of any significance -- "rendered inoperative," "brought to nothing," as you correctly interpret 2 Thes. 2:8. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the Lord's descent to earth in Rev. 19 to fight the nations of the Beast.

You were the one who said:  "the Son of Perdition. Who meets his end during the epiphaneia of the Parousia, as 2 Thes. 2:8 tells us"

And I as showed through Geoffrey Bromiley's excellent source for what the underlying Greek means - that is not so: the anti-Christ does not meet his end immediately when Jesus comes on the Day of the Lord.

That is not what Paul is saying.  That is what you're saying Paul says.  

When we look in depth to what Paul is saying, Paul is saying that he will meet his end, and that is assured as soon as Jesus comes.

The anti-Christ's time is not as short as Judas' time to whom you liken him.  His end goes all the way to the end of the one 'seven'.

From what sequences Scripture lays out in the Seal/Scroll chronology, and as portrayed again in the detailed parallel account of the one 'seven' in Revelation 13-16 - the end of the anti-Christ does not come immediately when Jesus first comes on the clouds and gathers us up.

- And that is the whole point of Paul's short sequence of events he tell the Thessalonians starting in 2:1.

[WilliamL]

1 hour ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

- Now you say the beast is still in the abyss.
I disagree.

Jude 6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day.

That great day of judgment is yet to come: therefore, these angels are still in the abyss. The Beast is the chief one of them. He is not a man, he is a fallen angel, one of those cast into and sealed in the Abyss during the Noahic Deluge. They will not be released until the 5th Seal, after the Rapture. These are the scriptural facts.