Endtime_Survivors Posted July 28, 2016 Group: Members Followers: 2 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 67 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 37 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/14/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted July 28, 2016 On 7/25/2016 at 4:49 PM, Marcus O'Reillius said: This [i.e. "A time is coming when those who kill you will think they are doing a service for God] is not talking about muslims and islam. The Great Tribulation concerns the wholesale slaughter of Christians and anyone else who does not do as the authorities say. I also do not think this is talking about being killed by Muslims, though I also don't think it's talking about the authorities, either (though it will include people with authority). I think it's talking about people who think they are right with God, but who behave contrary to what God wants. The pharisees believed they were right with God, and used that supposed rightness to justify killing Jesus (i.e. he was blaspheming). James and John asked if they should call down fire on a village who rejected them and Jesus rebuked them for it. These guys were two of Jesus' closest and yet they still got it wrong from time to time. I'm reminded of Jesus talking about the people standing outside who would knock, and he'd say, "I never knew you, you workers of iniquity". They said they'd eaten with Jesus and assumed he would recognize them. These people believed they were right with God, yet God saw it differently. I think the only way to really overcome this kind of thing is to be pretty sincere and diligent about asking God to show us where we may be wrong. Self righteousness can be pretty deceptive, and quite dangerous. I think this kind of thing happens on forums, where people sometimes behave quite unlovingly, but think it's okay because they believe their perspective/interpretation is inspired. Sometimes people really are wrong or mistaken in their point of view and we need to have the confidence to respond in such situations, but we'll also be judged the same as we judged others, and since we also have areas where we're wrong or mistaken (since none of us has perfect understanding of all truth) we should be pretty careful how we correct others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus O'Reillius Posted July 28, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,050 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 632 Days Won: 3 Joined: 03/29/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted July 28, 2016 11 hours ago, WilliamL said: Two presumptions you have read into the verse. Two more presumptions read into the verse. Two more presumptions read into the verse. Actually, it's because 2Th 2 does not exist in a vacuum. When you look at only the bark of a single tree, you can't even see the other trees, much less make out the forest. I blend the keystone passage of prophecy our Lord gave us in the Olivet Discourse, with its five specific and unique events, to Daniel 9:27 and Revelation's broad overview of chapters 4-11 (exclusive) and its detailed parallel account of just the one 'seven' in chapters 13-16 (inclusive). This allows me to build a sequence of events - and then Scripture interprets Scripture. What Paul says cannot violate Scripture if what he got is from the Holy Spirit. He doesn't, especially when you look at the peculiarities of the underlying Greek verb tense and mood. So what you criticize as presumptions is actually comparing this end-time prophecy with other end-time prophecies concerning the same action and actor. If you make this out to be different than those, than you are willy-nilly contradicting applicable Scripture describing the same thing - and thus you have an internal inconsistency in your eschatology. Scripture cannot be broken, Jesus said, and you have to consider its parts in terms of its whole. It is not a presumption to do so. Criticism refuted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus O'Reillius Posted July 28, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,050 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 632 Days Won: 3 Joined: 03/29/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted July 28, 2016 Here is a holistic approach to prophecy, whereupon I begin with the Olivet Discourse, sequence Daniel 9:27 around its common AoD event, and then bring in Revelation 4-11 (exclusive) around the specific and unique sun/moon/star event. Going on, I do the same around the AoD with Revelation 13-16 (inclusive), and then even blend in Rev 11:1-13 and the epilogue of Rev 19-22. The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea” with ten Kings (Council of Ministers) Little horn "hamstrings" three "Kings" to rise to power over the Beast of a Nation Worship of the beast (rebellion against God) Covenant with many prevailed by the Roman ruler who will come Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven' Temple w/ Gentiles 42 mos. He wages war against the Saints We are to endure patiently (remember Rev 3:10 and John 17:15) Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky' Armies surround Jerusalem Midpoint Abomination Erection of the talking image of the anti-Christ Two laws which make the Great Tribulation the worst time ever Two Witnesses 1260 days - call down Wrath Great Tribulation Sun/moon/star event Day of the LORD Scrolling of the sky = sign of the Son of Man Jesus touches down upon the earth Mustering the 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked Son of Man coming on the clouds Harvest Redemption / Gathering Elect from the clouds Great Multitude arrives in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation Books / Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal First Trumpet fire and blood – 1/3rd of earth burned Avenging Angels – supplying Blood and managing the Fire Wrath of God following the Day of the Lord Second Trumpet - 1/3rd of sea to blood Third Trumpet - 1/3rd of water bitter Fourth Trumpet - 1/3rd of light struck Fifth Trumpet Abyss opened 5 months torment Sixth Trumpet WWIII - 1/3rdf of man killed Seventh Trumpet First Bowl - Sores on Man Second Bowl - All sea to blood Third Bowl - All water to blood Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon Two Witnesses die from Demon from Abyss. The Great Multitude and the 24 Elders rejoice in Heaven Jesus and His army go out to do battle Seventh Bowl – end with desolations poured out on the Roman desolator Victory at Armageddon anti-Christ and false prophet captured Two Witnesses arise Earth changing earthquake End of the one ‘seven’ Beast of a Man thrown into Hell First three beasts allowed to live a while (30/45 day periods) Christ returns to Heaven Satan imprisoned Martyrs made alive Rewarding the Saints Establishment of Millennium reign of Christ Saints rule the earth Satan released at end of Millennium Revolt of the nations / their destruction Great White Throne Judgment Now here is a quick analysis of 2Th 2, showing how its basic sequence is also in alignment with the overall picture which develops when you take a sequence-of-events approach in analyzing end-time prophecy: 2nd Thessalonians Chapter 2 Rather than go over 2Th 2, which is another major linear narrative any good eschatology will have to build upon in order to have a complete framework, I'll just get to my conclusion which comes after six pages of source material later in this book. The initial list starts out fairly simple, but it is made difficult because the order Paul words it. He says this and that don't happen UNTIL this other thing and that other thing happen. So the order isn't as clear-cut as it can be, and some people mix up the one being removed as being the Church - which is an easy enough error to make. However, the one being removed, while known to the Thessalonians is lost to us - but one thing, the one has to be removed BEFORE the Man of Lawlessness will be revealed - and then the Day of Christ will come. The basic list is: The Rebellion Man of lawlessness is revealed Second coming of our Lord Our being gathering to Him Dead in Christ Those who are alive and are left And after incorporating a lot of the other things Paul lists, I come up with this refined sequence-of-events: The rebellion occurs Opposition and exaltation The “one” removed from the midst Setting himself up as God The man of lawlessness revealed Jesus comes Our being gathering to Him Dead in Christ Those who are alive and are left The man of lawlessness is undone He is done away with entirely. Now the first thing to observe is the match up with the long list we've already generated. The rebellion, along with the Opposition and exaltation match up very well with the worship of the beast (rebellion against God). The one removed happens before the midpoint abomination when the anti-Christ is fully revealed. Jesus comes on the Day of the Lord, what Paul calls the Day of Christ. Since Jesus is Lord and Christ, the two are synonymous. Our being gathered to Him is exactly like what happens on the Day of the Lord passage in the Olivet Discourse and the Harvest Account of the one 'seven.' This naturally results in the Great Multitude coming into Heaven after the sixth Seal Day of the Lord sun/moon/star event. After we go up, the anti-Christ is undone. He faces an ever-downward spiral of desolation after desolation for about three years and in my estimation a bit more. In the end: he is done away with entirely as he is thrown into Hell. Putting the two lists together results in an overall sequence-of-events which preserves every major eschatological narrative: The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea” with ten Kings (Council of Ministers) Little horn "hamstrings" three "Kings" to rise to power over the Beast of a Nation Rebellion occurs Opposition and exaltation Covenant with many prevailed by the Roman ruler who will come. Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven' He wages war against the Saints We are to endure patiently (remember Rev 3:10 and John 17:15) Temple w/ Gentiles 42 mos. Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky' The “one” removed from the midst Armies surround Jerusalem Midpoint Abomination - Setting up the talking image of the anti-Christ Two laws which make the Great Tribulation the worst time ever Books are opened Two Witnesses 1260 days - call down Wrath Great Tribulation Sun/moon/star event Day of the LORD. Scrolling of the sky = sign of the Son of Man Jesus touches down on Mount Zion Mustering the 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked Son of Man coming on the clouds Harvest Redemption / Gathering Elect from the clouds Dead in Christ Those who are alive and are left Great Multitude arrive in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation Books / Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal First Trumpet fire and blood – 1/3rd of earth burned Avenging Angels – supplying Blood and managing the Fire Wrath of God following the Day of the Lord Second Trumpet - 1/3rd of sea to blood Third Trumpet - 1/3rd of water bitter Fourth Trumpet - 1/3rd of light struck Fifth Trumpet Abyss opened 5 months torment Sixth Trumpet WWIII - 1/3rdf of man killed Seventh Trumpet First Bowl - Sores on Man Second Bowl - All sea to blood Third Bowl - All water to blood Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon Two Witnesses die from Demon from Abyss The Great Multitude and the 24 Elders rejoice in Heaven Jesus and His army (144,000 go out to do battle Two Witnesses arise Seventh Bowl – Man of Lawlessness is undone: end with desolations poured out on the Roman desolator Victory at Armageddon anti-Christ and false prophet captured Two Witnesses arise Earth changing earthquake End of the one ‘seven’ Beast of a Man thrown into Hell – done away with entirely First three beasts allowed to live a while (30/45 day periods) Christ returns to Heaven Satan imprisoned Martyrs made alive Rewarding the Saints Establishment of Millennium reign of Christ Saints rule the earth Satan released at end of Millennium Revolt of the nations / their destruction Great White Throne Judgment Paul's account fits into the mosaic with precision. Each part fits. There are still more end-time linear narratives to match up – and the amazing aspect is that there are no conflicts with the overall sequence of events listed so far, nor with any others I can find. Indeed, another aspect which incorporates nicely is Revelation chapter 12’s twin parallel accounts and the role of the Jews in all this harkening back to those in Judea from the Olivet Discourse. I must admit that the one removed from the midst is subjectively placed. The removal of this blocking spirit by God may allow the rise of the (man) beast from the sea or it may allow some subsequent event like the Gog/Magog war. The sequence of 2nd Thessalonians only demands it happens before he is revealed, and that will come to all at the midpoint. So all that can be said is that it comes before the midpoint abomination as well, but where exactly is my best guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted July 28, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 28, 2016 On 7/25/2016 at 8:49 AM, Marcus O'Reillius said: This is not talking about muslims and islam. That is wholly your opinion and not any firm conclusion reached in the prophetic Scripture. 1 hour ago, Endtime_Survivors said: I also do not think this is talking about being killed by Muslims Who said anything about Muslims or Islam? Its a much bigger context than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted July 28, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 28, 2016 12 hours ago, WilliamL said: When you interpret a verse with a whole bag of presumptions about how the End Times will play out, all you are going to see is what you want to see. Which is exactly what you did with this verse: you reinterpreted key verbs to fit your previous conclusions about the End Times. In doing so, you utterly denied the translation that you have long claimed is the best, the NASB, in favor of your own unique interpretations. I think we all tend to do this to one degree or another. We all have some idea as to how we think things will play out and tend to evaluate what people say within that context. The challenge is to be flexible and humble and attuned to what the Holy Spirit shows us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus O'Reillius Posted July 28, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,050 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 632 Days Won: 3 Joined: 03/29/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted July 28, 2016 18 minutes ago, Last Daze said: The challenge is to be flexible and humble and attuned to what the Holy Spirit shows us. How about staying flexible, that is being able to change our mind - being humble, in that we're all trying to discern God's Plan, and His Thinking is not like our thinking - and staying attuned to what Scripture tells us. The danger with saying "The Holy Spirit showed me..." or, "God told me that..." is that it not only becomes a trump card to end all scholarly discussion, but worse than that; saying some part of our thinking is a nugget of Truth from the Holy Spirit can lead to that being a stumbling block of self-delusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted July 28, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 28, 2016 2 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said: How about staying flexible, that is being able to change our mind - being humble, in that we're all trying to discern God's Plan, and His Thinking is not like our thinking - and staying attuned to what Scripture tells us. The danger with saying "The Holy Spirit showed me..." or, "God told me that..." is that it not only becomes a trump card to end all scholarly discussion, but worse than that; saying some part of our thinking is a nugget of Truth from the Holy Spirit can lead to that being a stumbling block of self-delusion. Scholarly discussions tend to become displays of intellectual posturing which result in strife. I'm not discounting the value of reasoned discussions at all, but ultimately the Holy Spirit will show us the things to come. Way, way, way too often, pride gets in the way and the "exchange" of ideas becomes a one-way force feeding and nothing is gained. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. John 16:13 Scripturally, it is the Holy Spirit who ultimately reveals to us what is to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted July 28, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,111 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,550 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Share Posted July 28, 2016 3 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said: So what you criticize as presumptions is actually comparing this end-time prophecy with other end-time prophecies concerning the same action and actor. No, what you SAY is the same action and actor. When you have to keep redefining words to make passages fit into your "holistic approach to prophecy," and your redefinitions so often contradict standard interpretations of the text, then I feel quite justified in saying that you are reading your presumptions into the Word. The OT gave us the pattern, in types and shadows, of the Second Coming, just like the OT provided the pattern, in types and shadows, of the First Coming. I believe the patterns, not you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus O'Reillius Posted July 28, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,050 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 632 Days Won: 3 Joined: 03/29/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted July 28, 2016 1 hour ago, Last Daze said: Scripturally, it is the Holy Spirit who ultimately reveals to us what is to come. True, it is the Holy Counselor who taught the Apostles all things and helped them remember what Jesus said (John 14:25). We can share in that, perhaps not in proportion to the Apostles' lead, but God also gave us intellect to use, and in that respect, we are not all equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus O'Reillius Posted July 28, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,050 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 632 Days Won: 3 Joined: 03/29/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted July 28, 2016 1 hour ago, WilliamL said: No, what you SAY is the same action and actor. I am not the only one who says that. Here is the Expositor's Bible Commentary on 2Th 2:4. The relationship of this apocalyptic portion of 2 Thessalonians to Christ's parousia (coming) confirms the impression that Paul must be referring to a single historical personage. Quests for such a person in the past and present have proved fruitless. Resemblances to Antiochus Epiphanes, Nero, Diocletian, one of the popes, and others may be admitted. But fulfillment of all details of the prophecy must await the future period of this man's prominence. It is futile to suppose that Judas Iscariot, Antiochus Epiphanes, or Nero will be brought back to life to fill this role. "The man of lawlessness" will be a new historical figure whom Satan will energize to do his will in the world. As "man of God" in the OT regularly designates a divine prophet, the present "man of lawlessness" designates a false prophet, probably to be identified with the second beast of Revelation 13 (Rev 13:11 ff.; 16:13; 19:20; 20:10) (Best, pp. 283, 284, 288). His primary function will be to preside over the religious apostasy in cooperation with the beast out of the sea (Rev 13:1 ff.), who leads political opposition to God. As God's chief opponent in Jerusalem whose background is probably Jewish (cf. Dan 11:36, 37), the lawless one will give religious leadership to complement the dominance of his associate over governments of the world's nations. Indeed, when we compare the context of each passage, each author of those passages is addressing the end-times surrounding Jesus' Second Advent. There is one very bad villain: he is the one who is distinguished apart from all other Kings (Isa 14:3-21): he will say he is god in the Temple in front of a talking image of himself set up as an idol for worship. And the OT patterns you see, like saying what's-his-name is central to Daniel 9:27, is of your own thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.thumb.jpg.59eed8b93aa1c92d8b306f10811981dc.jpg)
Recommended Posts