Jump to content
IGNORED

Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position


George

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  14
  • Topic Count:  66
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  6,599
  • Content Per Day:  2.00
  • Reputation:   2,355
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  03/17/2015
  • Status:  Offline

11 minutes ago, Yowm said:

Then why give out your views? Just refer everyone to Scripture.

Are you asking why I would parcel out my opinion? Or are you just asking in a general sense? Honestly, I think every so called prophet or teacher or pastor, etc. should shelve every personal view they hold and stick to simple black and white scripture. Everything that needs to be said has been said by the  Word of God. That being said I also think everyone with a voice should defend and preach every syllable of the Word of God. I don't give my opinion. I don't conjure truths. If you read any of my posts you'll see I let scripture do the talking.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  14
  • Topic Count:  66
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  6,599
  • Content Per Day:  2.00
  • Reputation:   2,355
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  03/17/2015
  • Status:  Offline

21 minutes ago, Yowm said:

When I asked for a reference on an eschatological topic you referred me to the Scriptures.

Fine, but I'm not so naive to know that everyone's take on Scripture is their view, including yours.

All views are to be tested, that's a given, but no reason we can't look into others besides someone who claims their view of eschatology is fact.

Well sure. Everyone's TAKE on scripture is their own. I don't have a take on scripture. It's not my view. Look up what I post and you'll see it's complete passages of scripture. Read my analysis and you see I stick with the simple, logical sense of the verses. I'm not a smart as some so I always read scripture like it meant something to me, personally, and even the least of us could easily understand.

But hey, look at whatever you want to. I'm just saying to stick with scripture so you don't get lied to by every church leader and pew-shiner you meet about what the scriptures actually say. I was lied to for years and had to start over, from the beginning after unlearning all the wrong things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  14
  • Topic Count:  66
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  6,599
  • Content Per Day:  2.00
  • Reputation:   2,355
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  03/17/2015
  • Status:  Offline

Well, the analysis can't be scripture can it? Otherwise all there would be is scripture. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  40
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  6,543
  • Content Per Day:  1.07
  • Reputation:   2,427
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  06/28/2007
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  10/28/1957

On July 10, 2015 at 8:00 PM, Ezra said:

Something which is easily forgotten is that the seven trumpets of Revelation are heralding extremely severe JUDGMENTS.  On the other hand "the trump of God" (also called "the last trump") is heralding ultimate SALVATION -- the perfection and glorification of the saints.  Therefore there is no way that they can be placed together or mistaken for each other.

Shalom, Ezra.

I was reviewing this thread, and thought that this was a good place to bring something to light that was somehow missed the first time around. 

Have you ever considered that the seventh trumpet might be (1) "severe judgment" to those against Israel (and God's people added from the Gentiles) while AT THE SAME TIME might be (2) "salvation" ("rescue") for Israel (and God's people)?

Just something I believe would be wise to consider.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  16
  • Topic Count:  134
  • Topics Per Day:  0.04
  • Content Count:  8,142
  • Content Per Day:  2.37
  • Reputation:   6,612
  • Days Won:  20
  • Joined:  11/02/2014
  • Status:  Offline

13 hours ago, inchrist said:

What seems to be unknown is that there are two last trumpet calls for the 2 brides of christ one for the church the other israel.

Israel forfeited any right to be termed a "bride" long ago. Christ has only one Bride, which is His Church (Eph 5:25-27). She is called the Lamb's Wife.

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  4
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  1,050
  • Content Per Day:  0.36
  • Reputation:   632
  • Days Won:  3
  • Joined:  03/29/2016
  • Status:  Offline

On September 1, 2016 at 8:18 AM, Retrobyter said:

Have you ever considered that the seventh trumpet might be (1) "severe judgment" to those against Israel (and God's people added from the Gentiles) while AT THE SAME TIME might be (2) "salvation" ("rescue") for Israel (and God's people)?

Well we can put anything together, and there are as many ways to put Scripture together as there are people to form them.  We literally have kooks and kooky ideas here.  Want to get a wayward eye in an intelligent gathering?  Let them know you're "into" eschatology.

Now when I studied trumpets and how they were used, they are simple signaling devices.  They cannot convey complicated commands, nor are there examples of multiple commands with a single signal, which might be a series of blasts.  There is nothing to suggest what you propose in historical and cultural use.  That we don't use trumpets means we are at a disadvantage in understanding them, which can lead to your supposition.

What we do have is a whole set of differences which buttress a determination to separate the two.

The Last Trumpet is:

  1. Blown by God
  2. A named Trumpet
  3. An assembly trumpet
  4. The "last call" for Salvation

The seventh Trumpet is:

  1. Blown by an Angel
  2. A numbered Trumpet
  3. An announcement trumpet
  4. Announces the final desolation against the wicked

So, no, in this specific instance, the same action cannot have two different results.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  40
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  6,543
  • Content Per Day:  1.07
  • Reputation:   2,427
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  06/28/2007
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  10/28/1957

7 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Well we can put anything together, and there are as many ways to put Scripture together as there are people to form them.  We literally have kooks and kooky ideas here.  Want to get a wayward eye in an intelligent gathering?  Let them know you're "into" eschatology.

Now when I studied trumpets and how they were used, they are simple signaling devices.  They cannot convey complicated commands, nor are there examples of multiple commands with a single signal, which might be a series of blasts.  There is nothing to suggest what you propose in historical and cultural use.  That we don't use trumpets means we are at a disadvantage in understanding them, which can lead to your supposition.

What we do have is a whole set of differences which buttress a determination to separate the two.

The Last Trumpet is:

  1. Blown by God
  2. A named Trumpet
  3. An assembly trumpet
  4. The "last call" for Salvation

The seventh Trumpet is:

  1. Blown by an Angel
  2. A numbered Trumpet
  3. An announcement trumpet
  4. Announces the final desolation against the wicked

So, no, in this specific instance, the same action cannot have two different results.

Shalom, Marcus.

It's not that "kooky"; I grew up on old Western movies. When a wagon train was under attack by the Indians and they had circled the wagons and it looked as if they would be killed for sure, it was a WELCOME sound to hear the bugle blowing "Charge!" When the "boys in blue" came riding over the ridge, it was a HAPPY occasion for the settlers! It was NOT so happy for the Indians!

Shofars were used similarly in battle calls in ancient Israel. Think of them as air-raid sirens! And, they can OVERLAP each other! If shofar #1 is blaring for one reason, say "hail and fire mixed with blood thrown onto the ground, burning up a third of all trees and all green grass," a second shofar could be blown at a different pitch for another reason, say "a great mountain burning with fire being thrown into the sea." The first one need not finish before the second one is sounded.

Salvation means "RESCUE" or "DELIVERANCE!"

Edited by Retrobyter
wrong word
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  8
  • Topic Count:  23
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  977
  • Content Per Day:  0.21
  • Reputation:   641
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  07/15/2011
  • Status:  Offline

20 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

It's not that "kooky"; I grew up on old Western movies. When a wagon train was under attack by the Indians and they had circled the wagons and it looked as if they would be killed for sure, it was a WELCOME sound to hear the bugle blowing "Charge!" When the "boys in blue" came riding over the ridge, it was a HAPPY occasion for the settlers! It was NOT so happy for the Indians!

I remember those too. One particular Saturday afternoon movie (I'm talking 55 or more years ago lol) there was a lone wagon being chased by about thirty screaming Indians intent on killing and mayhem. The driver of this lone wagon, his face filled with fear and dread, drove the horses as fast as they could go, his terrified wife and children bouncing around in the back. They had travelled for several miles and the chasing group growing steadily closer with the tension mounting and the music rising to a crescendo, when someone in the theater called out, "Form a circle!!!!". The entire audience ended up laughing so much I can't remember noticing what actually happened to the wagon.

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  4
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  1,050
  • Content Per Day:  0.36
  • Reputation:   632
  • Days Won:  3
  • Joined:  03/29/2016
  • Status:  Offline

The point of the "Charge!" bugle was to sound the charge!

The reaction of the people is totally different and apart from saying the TRUMPET does and means two things at once!

When Jesus comes, we are to look up for our redemption is nigh.
When Jesus comes, the world (wicked) will mourn.

There is one initial coming after a long absence - but it is singular.

Paul wrote about difference between Righteous and Wicked with Jesus as comparing it to the smell of the incense at the Roman army victory march.
- To the victors, at the head of the procession, it was the sweet smell of victory.
- To the prisoners at the tail end of the procession, it was the smell of death.

BUT - it is not a case of one incense doing two things.
It was the same incense which was doing one thing for their pagan temple ritual from two different perspectives.

It is NOT that two things don't happen when Jesus comes again.
It is whether or not a single Trumpet can do two things at once.

It cannot.

Remember: 

  • Jesus sounds the Last Trumpet.
  • An Angel sounds the seventh Trumpet

And:

  • Jesus sounds the Last Trumpet to awaken the Dead in Christ.
  • An Angel sounds the seventh Trumpet to announce God's Wrath.

A trumpet can mean different things to different people, but that particular Trumpet has only one meaning.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  40
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  6,543
  • Content Per Day:  1.07
  • Reputation:   2,427
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  06/28/2007
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  10/28/1957

4 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

The point of the "Charge!" bugle was to sound the charge!

The reaction of the people is totally different and apart from saying the TRUMPET does and means two things at once!

When Jesus comes, we are to look up for our redemption is nigh.
When Jesus comes, the world (wicked) will mourn.

There is one initial coming after a long absence - but it is singular.

Paul wrote about difference between Righteous and Wicked with Jesus as comparing it to the smell of the incense at the Roman army victory march.
- To the victors, at the head of the procession, it was the sweet smell of victory.
- To the prisoners at the tail end of the procession, it was the smell of death.

BUT - it is not a case of one incense doing two things.
It was the same incense which was doing one thing for their pagan temple ritual from two different perspectives.

It is NOT that two things don't happen when Jesus comes again.
It is whether or not a single Trumpet can do two things at once.

It cannot.

Remember: 

  • Jesus sounds the Last Trumpet.
  • An Angel sounds the seventh Trumpet

And:

  • Jesus sounds the Last Trumpet to awaken the Dead in Christ.
  • An Angel sounds the seventh Trumpet to announce God's Wrath.

A trumpet can mean different things to different people, but that particular Trumpet has only one meaning.

Shalom, Marcus.

Are you kidding me? Have you even HEARD a shofar blast? I hear them almost every Shabbat service! I have a couple of shofars myself (although I'm not very good at playing them). (If I take one of them down off the mantle, my dog goes NUTS, knowing what's coming!)

There are four blast patterns that are blown on a shofar:

Tekiah = a single blast
Shevariym = three short-blasts of two notes each
Teru'ah = a nine-note quaver
Tekiah gadolah = a LONG, LOUD blast

All four are played once on a normal Shabbat. They are played over and over on holidays, and the same four blast patterns can mean different things based on the holiday!

You just don't want to admit it's the SAME BLAST!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...