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Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position


George

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8 hours ago, WilliamL said:

So you admit that they are hiding from the Face of the Lord.

No, I didn't say that at all.  I admit nothing of the sort.  Where do you get that?  They don't even say that in the Bible... Look, if you want to teach that ~ well!  You're on own!
 

9 hours ago, WilliamL said:

then you go on to presume  ~  All of Revelation 6 takes place well before any event in Rev. 14

I presume nothing!  I deduced it, and I stand by it.  Your protestations, and you seem to have some personal problem with what I post, do not include any specific reason to refute the parallel account construction found within the book of Revelation.

To whit, if you think the whole thing is over as per Revelation 11:13, and 11:18-19 BEFORE the first half of the one 'seven' in Revelation 13:5 and the one 'seven's midpoint at Revelation 13:14-15, well then, you certainly have one of the strangest ways of interpreting the book of Revelation I've ever heard!

So staff, please note: WilliamL is no longer a member in good standing of the Marcus O'Reillius Fan Club, and we won't be sending him a Christmas card this year.

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11 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Oh, for crying out loud.  Shofars do NOT play NOTES.  This whole criticism is a non-sequitur and a fallacy in argument.  I am amazed how much you "know" about what I know!  Such an attribute is usually reserved only for God!

What lengths you will go to win an argument!  This is the worst feature about these message boards - when one side attempts to "trump" (I love that pun, especially after the debate last night) the other side with some senseless side issue where they think they have the other side off-balance.  So some little crack that they perceive becomes the whole focus for saying "GOTHCHA!" and they "win" by default.  Nothing could be further from the truth - and as Christians, we ought to be concerned about getting to the heart of the matter: Is the Last Trumpet the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath?

By many measures, we can say they are not.

Now to your silly criticism.  Modern trumpets are not shofars.  A modern bugle has about four tones varying on the way the sounder purses his lips and the initial pitch he uses on the mouthpiece; a feature lacking in simple, natural animal horns, reeds, and wooden tubes, commonly used to make trumpets in ancient times.  In the OT, the silver trumpets had a mouthpiece.  This is an advancement in trumpet making over natural horns, yet all available information from that time, is that they did not employ notes in their signalling. In the Middle Ages and into the Renaissance, trumpet making advanced to where they could actually play "music" of a sort, (which is not what we're used to at all) and still, these natural trumpets were very limited in range.  The advancement in technology coming into the Industrial Age of a reed allowed better vibration so as to make notes, and then the circular reed came into play - all before the addition of tubing, valves and slides to vary the length of the tube, so that actual notes in a chromatic scale can be played.

Biblically: Trumpet blasts were not differentiated by tone.  This is because they lacked the modernization we have come to know.

In ancient times, as in when the Bible was written, the Priests used TWO different lengths of breath to differentiate the blasts.  But the whole litany of modern Jewish worship has doubled to a whooping FOUR.  That's it.  And NONE of them differentiate on tone, even though there is a slight variation in tone available in the start (and end) of each sounding.  These variations are not variable in pitch like a bugle which can produce four distinct notes ~ so it is not surprising that they aren't used.  They are simply too close to the primary tone to be discernible.

We're not talking about modern trumpets.  We're talking about the Last Trumpet and the seven Trumpets which are revealed when the Scroll is finally unsealed.

While Moses designed the two silver Trumpets, which were fixed in length and had no reed system (but did have a separate mouthpiece) - they were also "tuned" to sound the same.  This tuning is done in the manufacturing because length and diameter are key to the pitch of the natural (not modern) trumpet.

Now we don't know if the seven Trumpets the seven Angels blow are silver or not.  The Bible is silent on this.  Likewise, we don't know how the Last Trumpet is a Shofar or not as well.  So we can't differentiate on that basis.

We can say though, on the basis of how any ancient single metal trumpet or shofar was made - that any single trumpet could NOT play different notes!

However, we can still differentiate on WHO blows the Trumpet AND the PURPOSE of the Trumpet blast.

What you have tried to muddy, and are not deflecting is that any trumpet signal, no matter what its blast pattern is, is SINGULAR.

THUS:
Jesus and the Angels differentiate WHO blows their respective Trumpets, and 
the PURPOSE: His is an assembly Trumpet and theirs is an announcement Trumpet.

And modern trumpets range of notes has NOTHING to do with it.
So much for your "GOTCHA."

Shalom, Marcus.

I blow shofars! I KNOW their capabilities, whether I'm good at them or not! I know that they can sustain a SET of notes! I have both a ram's horn shofar and a Kudu antelope horn shofar! These MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS have ALWAYS had these capabilities! Are you meshugah?! The notes one can play through air vibrating in a tube at its resonance pitch or at a multiple of its resonance pitch is the SAME, whether that tube is curved or straight! That has ALWAYS been true!

Zechariah 9:9-16
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation (rescue; deliverance); lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.
12 Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;
13 When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.
14 And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet (Hebrew: shofar), and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
15 The LORD of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.
16 And the LORD their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.
KJV

To the oppressors, His shofar will bring panic; to the rescued, His shofar will bring joy! To the oppressors, God will bring His WRATH! To the rescued, His shofar will gather them in RESURRECTION and His deliverance! Then, notice: "they (the rescued) shall devour, and subdue with sling stones!" We shall HELP in dispensing the wrath!

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20 hours ago, inchrist said:

Let me throw a spanner in the works here. There are two last trumpets for two types of Brides. 

There is the last trumpet for the church ( Rosh hashanah 7th trumpet of Rev - resurrection) - and the last trumpet for the torah believing Jews 10 days later (Rev 19 which is the day of atonement)

There is a prophetic template of Christ marring two brides in the story of Jacob, leigh and rebekah which the case is built on.

Shalom, inchrist.

Seems to me that it would be unwise to take this viewpoint about the Messiah (the Christ) having two wives, when He said,

Mark 10:5-9
5 And Jesus answered and said unto them,
For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.
6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
8 And they twain (TWO) shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain (TWO), but one flesh.
9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

KJV

Besides, her name was "Leah," not "Leigh." And, Ya`aqov's (Jacob's) first choice was "Rachel," not His MOTHER'S name, "Rivkah" ("Rebekah"), and if he could have had his original choice, he would not have been married to Leah (although she became a comfort to him and gave him children, and he was buried with her)!

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9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

To the oppressors, His shofar will bring panic; to the rescued, His shofar will bring joy! 

The purpose of the trumpet blast is singular.

Jesus blows the named, assembly Trumpet.
An Angel blows the numbered, announcement Trumpet.

Spin as you like, you have not addressed this central set of facts which differentiates the two.

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12 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:
21 hours ago, WilliamL said:

So you admit that they are hiding from the Face of the Lord.

No, I didn't say that at all.  I admit nothing of the sort.  Where do you get that?  They don't even say that in the Bible... Look, if you want to teach that ~ well!  You're on own!

21 hours ago, WilliamL said:
On 9/26/2016 at 1:39 PM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

I don't trust the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man, who are hiding from the face of Lord because the third Angel tells them He is coming for them - to tell me at that specific point what is actually happening.

It is right there, you said it, now you deny it: "the kings of the earth...who are hiding from the face of Lord..." Which, despite what you say in your later post at the top, is an accurate reading of Rev. 6:15-16 --

And the kings of the earth...hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks...hide us from the Face of Him who sits on the throne...

 

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23 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

______________________________________________

Thus, Rev 16:15 does not concern the Elect, nor is it indicative of the Harvest which was previously accomplished BEFORE God's Wrath goes forward.

In a Pre-Wrath model, Rev 16:15 concerns the Remnant Jews God marshals through the utter destruction upon the earth which occurs during the second half of the one 'seven.'

I'm sorry for the long-winded answer, but your question was sincere, and it deserves a full answer.

Thank-you for your time in reading all this.

Thanks for the response.  As is usually the case, there are parts I agree with and parts I see differently.  I guess what it all boils down to is . . .

  • Therefore, be on the alert—for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning— in case he should come suddenly and find you asleep. What I say to you I say to all, "Be on the alert!"  Mark 13:35-37

vigilance.

 

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2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

 

Oh, I did say that.

Political debate GOTCHA?  Yeah, so what.  It doesn't change the underlying point I made.

But I did not say that they SAW the Lord, which is what I think you're trying to imply.

This is the version I read:
"Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;"
So I looked at what you said, and because I was not implying that they "saw" God but rather that they could not face Him, they cannot withstand His Presence, and found this relevant portion of the verse where they did reference Him.

They know - because they have been told by the third Angel of Rev 14 - that God is coming for them!
HOWEVER!  They do NOT KNOW God, nor do they even infinitesimally understand what He is going to do NEXT!

What God is fixin' to do NEXT - is the Harvest gathering of the Elect in Rev 14:14-16 which is just like 1Th 4:17 and Mt 24:31.

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12 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

To the oppressors, His shofar will bring panic; to the rescued, His shofar will bring joy! To the oppressors, God will bring His WRATH! To the rescued, His shofar will gather them in RESURRECTION and His deliverance! Then, notice: "they (the rescued) shall devour, and subdue with sling stones!" We shall HELP in dispensing the wrath!

Where is the Last Trumpet mentioned in the Bible?
1Co 15:51-52.

What does it say?
1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Does this happen simultaneously?
No.

But is says "and we will be changed".
Yes, and taken alone, you could say that.  However, there is an accompanying verse which shows the two are not so linked.

Where is that written?
1Th 4:16-17.

What does it say?
1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

So with the Trumpet call of God, the Dead in Christ will rise first, is that correct?
Yes.

Is that written anywhere else?
Yes.

Where is that written?
John 5:25.

What does it say?
Jn 5:25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Doesn't that only address those who are spiritually dead in their sin within His presence two thousand years ago?
No, it can also be taken eschatologically.

It doesn't say trumpet does that in John 5:25.
Yes, it doesn't say it does outright, but that doesn't mean when those who are numbered among the "Dead in Christ" when He resurrects them aren't also woken up with that Last Trumpet.  An omission of a fact is not a commission of an error in the Bible.  Lots of little facts are omitted all the time in the story-telling nature of the Bible.  The "Dead in Christ" WILL HEAR the voice of the Son of God.

Is there anything else that allows a two-step process where only the Dead in Christ are the only ones to hear the Last Trumpet.
Yes.

Where is that written?
1Th 3:13.

What does it say?
...at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.

How is that?
From a "observer-true" perspective of one of the Elect standing upon the earth as our Lord encircles it gathering up the Elect, they would see Jesus coming on the clouds of Heaven WITH those who have already been resurrected from Paradise.

What does this mean?
It means that Roy is assuming that the Last Trumpet is also heard by the wicked.
As far as we know, only the Dead in Christ who are "asleep" (a euphemism for resting in peace in death) hear the Last Trumpet.

Thus, all his two-part it means this to these people and that to another people is moot.
Never mind that the REACTION of different sets of people NEVER changes the PURPOSE of the Trumpet.

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6 hours ago, WilliamL said:
On 9/27/2016 at 10:27 AM, WilliamL said:
On 9/26/2016 at 1:39 PM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

I don't trust the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man, who are hiding from the face of Lord because the third Angel tells them He is coming for them - to tell me at that specific point what is actually happening.

It is right there, you said it, now you deny it: "the kings of the earth...who are hiding from the face of Lord..." Which, despite what you say in your later post at the top, is an accurate reading of Rev. 6:15-16 --

And the kings of the earth...hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks...hide us from the Face of Him who sits on the throne...

 

4 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Oh, I did say that.

Political debate GOTCHA?  Yeah, so what.  It doesn't change the underlying point I made.

But I did not say that they SAW the Lord, which is what I think you're trying to imply.

This is the version I read:
"Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;"
So I looked at what you said, and because I was not implying that they "saw" God but rather that they could not face Him, they cannot withstand His Presence, and found this relevant portion of the verse where they did reference Him.

Utterly lame Hillary-like response. Never admit an error, no matter what. Just keep on attacking.

The text is evident in itself: these people have seen the Face/Countenance [Gr. prosopon] of the Lord, in His Glory (Is. 2:10ff.), "when He arises to shake the earth mightily." That is why they are hiding from Him in fear.  Anyone who denies these simply-spoken prophecies of Is. 2 and Rev. 6 hasn't a clue about the sequence of End Time events.

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11 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

The purpose of the trumpet blast is singular.

Jesus blows the named, assembly Trumpet.
An Angel blows the numbered, announcement Trumpet.

Spin as you like, you have not addressed this central set of facts which differentiates the two.

Shalom, Marcus.

Really? I thought I had! Yeshua` (Jesus) does NOT blow "the named, assembly Trumpet." Where'd you get that OPINION?! What do you use as "Scriptural proof?" He COMES BACK, being ACCOMPANIED by the blowing of the shofar, but blowing it Himself? Nah! No "spin" necessary!

Revelation 11:15-18
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven (loud voices in the sky), saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord (our Master YHWH), and of his Christ (His Anointed; His Messiah); and he (YHWH) shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
KJV

This is the BEGINNING of the Messiah's Reign for His Father, that which some call the Messiah's "Millennial Reign!" (Actually, His reign shall NEVER end, but He DOES deliver the  WORLD EMPIRE He builds to His Father after death is destroyed.)

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