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Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position


George

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5 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Anyone who denies these simply-spoken prophecies of Is. 2 and Rev. 6 hasn't a clue about the sequence of End Time events.

Good thing I give my money to Donald Trump and I don't deny the wicked demonstrate what they heard from the third Angel and are entirely mistaken as to what comes NEXT when Jesus comes - the Harvest of the Elect -- as any good Sequence-of-Events analyst will tell you.

  • Sun/moon/star event Day of the LORD.
    • Scrolling of the sky = sign of the Son of Man
    • Jesus touches down on Mount Zion
    • Mustering the 144,000 on Mount Zion with Jesus standing upon the earth
    • 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked
      • The Last Trumpet Call of God
      • Dead in Christ are Resurrected
    • Son of Man coming on the clouds with the Saints
    • Harvest Redemption / Gathering Elect from the earth
      • Those who are alive and are left are gathered up
    • Great Multitude arrive in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation
    • Books / Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal
    • First Trumpet fire and blood – 1/3rd of earth burned
      • Avenging Angels – supplying Blood and managing the Fire
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1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Yeshua` (Jesus) does NOT blow "the named, assembly Trumpet." Where'd you get that OPINION?! What do you use as "Scriptural proof?" He COMES BACK, being ACCOMPANIED by the blowing of the shofar, but blowing it Himself? Nah! No "spin" necessary!

Dear Spinmeister:

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

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10 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Where is the Last Trumpet mentioned in the Bible?
1Co 15:51-52.

What does it say?
1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Does this happen simultaneously?
No.

But is says "and we will be changed".
Yes, and taken alone, you could say that.  However, there is an accompanying verse which shows the two are not so linked.

Where is that written?
1Th 4:16-17.

What does it say?
1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

So with the Trumpet call of God, the Dead in Christ will rise first, is that correct?
Yes.

Is that written anywhere else?
Yes.

Where is that written?
John 5:25.

What does it say?
Jn 5:25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Doesn't that only address those who are spiritually dead in their sin within His presence two thousand years ago?
No, it can also be taken eschatologically.

It doesn't say trumpet does that in John 5:25.
Yes, it doesn't say it does outright, but that doesn't mean when those who are numbered among the "Dead in Christ" when He resurrects them aren't also woken up with that Last Trumpet.  An omission of a fact is not a commission of an error in the Bible.  Lots of little facts are omitted all the time in the story-telling nature of the Bible.  The "Dead in Christ" WILL HEAR the voice of the Son of God.

Is there anything else that allows a two-step process where only the Dead in Christ are the only ones to hear the Last Trumpet.
Yes.

Where is that written?
1Th 3:13.

What does it say?
...at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.

How is that?
From a "observer-true" perspective of one of the Elect standing upon the earth as our Lord encircles it gathering up the Elect, they would see Jesus coming on the clouds of Heaven WITH those who have already been resurrected from Paradise.

What does this mean?
It means that Roy is assuming that the Last Trumpet is also heard by the wicked.
As far as we know, only the Dead in Christ who are "asleep" (a euphemism for resting in peace in death) hear the Last Trumpet.

Thus, all his two-part it means this to these people and that to another people is moot.
Never mind that the REACTION of different sets of people NEVER changes the PURPOSE of the Trumpet.

Shalom, Marcus.

LOL! Tell me: How is it possible for the "dead in the Messiah," who are "asleep" (dead), to be the only ones who hear the Last Trumpet? Do you even know how sound is propagated?! When Yeshua` called out Elezar's ("Lazarus'") name, how many in that graveyard heard His voice? "ELEZAR! BO'!"

OF COURSE, the wicked will hear the shofar! Unless they're deaf or they're too far away to hear it, THEY SHALL HEAR IT! Yeshua` will come on the clouds of the sky with those who are raised back to life and those who are transformed! (They will NOT be coming from "pardec," since "pardec" [the "park"] is within the New Jerusalem, which will not yet have arrived.)

Look, Resurrection is an act of CREATION! How else would completely decayed bodies or bodies disintegrated in the fires of a crematorium be re-assembled and given life? That they hear a shofar being blown by one of His messengers is merely proof that the Resurrection shall have already taken place! They can hear His call, and they shall obey! His messengers shall "give them a lift" to meet the Lord Yeshua` in the air, and they will follow Him to His mission in Israel and the Middle East!

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Roy, I'm not so sure you and I even have the same concept of the afterlife.

Theologically, and eschatologically, this is where we differ even on our respective views of Heaven, with you opting for a literal application of the word to 'sky' and I preferring a more dimensional difference.

Where do we go when we die?  Where do you say we go when we die?

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7 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:
  • Sun/moon/star event Day of the LORD.
    • Scrolling of the sky = sign of the Son of Man
    • Jesus touches down on Mount Zion
    • Mustering the 144,000 on Mount Zion with Jesus standing upon the earth
    • 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked
      • The Last Trumpet Call of God
      • Dead in Christ are Resurrected
    • Son of Man coming on the clouds with the Saints
    • Harvest Redemption / Gathering Elect from the earth
      • Those who are alive and are left are gathered up
    • Great Multitude arrive in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation
    • Books / Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal
    • First Trumpet fire and blood – 1/3rd of earth burned
      • Avenging Angels – supplying Blood and managing the Fire

You know, the thing here is that when the wicked hide from the paraousia of Jesus -- as a meteor shower (falling stars) acts as the celestial fireworks to what a friend of mine described as a dimensional rift, and I immediately thought he was onto something - when the night sky scrolls back and the earth is pierced by the Light of God - just the opposite as to how the precursor sun/moon/star sign starts out with clouds darkening the earth at the brightest part of day: noon -- their imminent destruction is NOT NEXT.

Nor will all of them die in the ensuing firestorm/volcanic eruption (mountains will "smoke") which affects a third of the earth on the following daylight portion of the Day of the Lord.

I'm pretty sure they will "make it" through the Day of the Lord if they're not in Israel for those two battles that happen that Day: one around and in Jerusalem and the other to its South around Bethlehem in the "Valley of Decision."  

I'm also pretty sure there will be "church services" going on too... for all those left behind like the five foolish virgins.

Reading the sixth Seal's sequence of events and the companion, parallel account to it in Revelation 14, I do not have to change what I wrote, - the sequence-of-events I assembled and produced for you is correct - but I do have to change how I envisioned it.  

I had always thought the hiding took place during the previous day when the foreboding darkness took hold; as the progressive cloud cover enveloped the earth.  I'm sure the cable news boys will ALL be in panic over that.  Can you imagine the coverage?  That is when I thought the powerful would hide.  Not so.  And have you been watching what's going on?  The rich are in a frenzy to build these things, these underground bunkers.  Read about it here: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/bunker-builders-anticipate-lucrative-trumpocalypse-932748 - it's up on the DrudgeReport.

No.  Their destruction is not next.

Our Rescue is.

And that Rescue, the Rapture, is not what everyone might expect.  In fact, I think the word Paul uses in 1Co 15:51 - allasso - has a double meaning.  It can mean to "change" or "exchange".  Now I have read commentaries and most all prefer "change", however, that does not answer Jesus' cryptic answer to the Disciples about where "we" go in Luke 17:37: as dead bodies where the birds of prey go.  (Various Bible versions use different birds here, but even great predator birds are not above eating carrion.)

Now we don't like that idea, of discarding our bodies.  We are quite in love with ourselves.  But God does not need to reconstitute bodies which no longer exist in the ground to resurrect the Dead.  But as Paul says, what was planted in one form (buried) rises in another.  So the old form is no longer needed.

Likewise with those who remain and are left - which is an important qualification IF you look at the Rapture as happening after the shortened Great Tribulation - their bodies are also not needed in order for us to be rid of flesh and blood which cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.  So what if we exchange our bodies for new ones and the old ones, no longer needed, are simply discarded?  Would not that answer where we "go" in such mysterious and cryptic fashion?

Question:
Could these new, immortal, and imperishable bodies be the "places" God has prepared for us from John 14:3?

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So:
After the Parousia of Jesus at night, and the terror it will instill upon the wicked world, (and this is aptly described in a single verse in Isaiah: 17:14 In the evening, sudden terror! Before the morning, they are gone!)

When He alights upon the earth and the 144,000 are "mustered" with Jesus on the newly cleft Mount of Olives from Zechariah 14:4 (as per Acts 1:11).  (Again Isaiah sees this in chapter 13: The LORD Almighty is mustering an army for war.  Read 13:2-6 and 5:26.  I think Isaiah saw the 144,000 there.) 

~ Three Angels warn the world, the first with the eternal Gospel which will convert many who never heard it before, the second in summary, and the third who warns the wicked -- THEN the wicked go into hiding: AND this is perfectly preserved in Rev 6:15 because it comes after sun/moon/star sign and the second earthquake of the sixth Seal.

The "sealing" of the 144,000 happens after they are mustered.  It is during this time that I think Jesus goes to that dimensional realm of Paradise, where He went with the thief on His Right on the day He was crucified, to sound the Last Trumpet and so resurrects the Dead in Christ when He calls out (John 5:25).  

Then He comes with them (1Th 3:13) to gather the Elect who remain and are left from all over the world, (Mt 24:31, 1Th 4:17, Rev 14:14-16) east to west I would add as my opinion, and every eye will see Him.   And we are taken up (paralambano - to receive our inheritance, also used when someone "receives" Christ into their heart) 

My wife had a prophetic dream years ago when I started this inquiry of mine.  She "knew" before she saw Him, that He was on the earth.  The spiritual adviser we knew then, said that knowledge was the mark of a prophetic dream.  My wife then described seeing Jesus come, and from the vantage point of her dream it was from the east, which didn't strike her as anything worth noting, just the setting as she described it immediately told me it was from the east - and she had no way of knowing how this fit with Scripture - and she described the feeling she had inside as beautiful and indescribably wonderful.  This exchange will not be painful I think.  Not all of us will die, and this exchange is not like dying.  But taking the word in 1Co 15:51, allasso, as such, leaves the world with inanimate bodies: they're "dead".

In sequence fashion, only when both parts of the Harvest are in hand, does Jesus deliver them to Heaven, where John sees them before the Father, arrayed in white robes and holding palm branches (not harps) (and I want to know - where did they get all those palm fronds?) having been taken out of the Great Tribulation.

The seventh Seal is broken, and there is silence for half an hour.

    AM 8:3 "In that day," declares the Sovereign LORD, "the songs in the temple will turn to wailing. Many, many bodies--flung everywhere! Silence!"

The world awakens with the dawn to dead bodies.

The people they had sought to eliminate are now lifeless forms.  Imagine if you will that this exchange leaves bodies scattered all about - without a mark on them!  

Now imagine as you will, that as Jesus begins to trample out the Wrath of God upon the world - the wicked begin to get their due and their fears are partially realized.  They don't understand, nor will they be able to comprehend, the ever-deepening pit in which they will be drawn into only to die in the end.  And the longer they hold on, the worse it will be.

For Americans on the Day of the Lord, far removed from Israel, imagine if you will that the Yellowstone Caldera blows.  Think of Mount St. Helens on steroids, a thousand-fold stronger!  This catastrophe, when mountains "smoke", would wipe out their food supply in the Midwest and short out their electrical grid over most of the country.  What the wicked had deprived us during the Great Tribulation, food and power - will not be denied them for even longer.  Their struggle to stay alive will be a lot tougher when they come out of their shelters - but the Wrath of God is only just beginning.  

I don't give them much chance at all to surviving it, in fact, I know they won't.

But when the Day of the Lord dawns, and they find the bodies, won't the wicked also be shocked?  Here are those pesky Christians who hadn't taken the mark.  Their Lord has come and gone - and they're dead!  Why, 'If He did that to them, what is He going to do to us?' they might cry.  And those foolish Christians who took the mark will assemble in their church buildings and wail and moan.  Theirs is a terrible end; they were so close - they had a hope of Heaven, and now they get to live and die in Hell on earth.

Yes, the rich and powerful will survive the catastrophe of the Day of the Lord.  They will hunker down in their bunkers and maybe come out later, but their lives won't be as comfortable as they were.  The effect of the first Trumpet alone will have them clawing for survival for a year or more until they can rebuild their infrastructure and with their will power, bend creation to their liking... but then sometime later, the second Trumpet will sound, and all their work will be for naught.

And the 144,000?  During the Day of the Lord, you can read what they do in Joel 2, as Jesus tramps out His Wrath in Israel.  I wouldn't want to be there...

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:emot-heartbeat:

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20 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Dear Spinmeister:

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Shalom, Marcus.

(Name-calling, humph.) He doesn't come back with His own "voice," but that of the "archangel" or chief messenger. (We have some evidence that "angel," which means "messenger," could also refer to a prophet, since a prophet is indeed a messenger of ADONAI.) The shout may have been His own, but the voice is that of this chief messenger, and the trumpet is God's trumpet (Hebrew: shofar), possibly the same shofar sound that they heard at Mount Sinai:

Exodus 19:14-19
14 And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes.
15 And he said unto the people, Be ready against the third day: come not at your wives.
16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.
17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.
18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.
19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.
KJV

So, is this all that makes you think that YESHUA` blows the shofar, just this vague association in this sentence?

The "shout," by the way, may have been that of His forerunner, Yochanan the Immerser.

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20 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Roy, I'm not so sure you and I even have the same concept of the afterlife.

Theologically, and eschatologically, this is where we differ even on our respective views of Heaven, with you opting for a literal application of the word to 'sky' and I preferring a more dimensional difference.

Where do we go when we die?  Where do you say we go when we die?

Shalom, Marcus.

No, of course, we don't. I don't believe we go ANYWHERE after we die; we "lie asleep" and "await" the Resurrection. We cease to be a "soul," an "air-breather." Our hope is in the promise of God that He will resurrect us, changing us into a body fashioned like unto HIS glowing body! That's why "glorious" is better pronounced "GLOW-rious," and that realization came from the wife of our music director when I was still in Baptist circles.

Philippians 3:20-21
20 For our conversation (community; citizenship) is in heaven (the sky); from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ (the Master, or "Meister," if you prefer, Yeshua` the Messiah):
21 Who shall change our vile (depressed) body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
KJV

After the Resurrection, we live and reign with Him here on this earth! (Revelation 20:4-6) We shall literally "have ... authority over ten cities (towns)," etc. (Luke 19:16-19) Whether that be in Israel, a tributary nation to Israel, or our own home country, we shall have a job to do within His Kingdom.

1 Corinthians 6:1-3
1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels (messengers)? how much more things that pertain to this life?
KJV

A THOUSAND YEARS is a VERY long time! MUCH longer than a mere 7 years! And, yet, have you ever noticed how little is said about that time period in most charts? It's even abbreviated in various ways on time lines!

After the Millennium (which is more about haSatan being locked up in the abyss than the length of the Messiah's Kingdom, which is forever and ever), the Great White Throne Judgment takes place and Yeshua` the Melekh (Hebrew for "King") judges the world and defeats death permanently. Then, He hands the world empire over to His Father, and He goes on to be Israel's Melekh forever!

It shall be at THAT time that the New Jerusalem, containing the Paradise or Park of God, lands upon the New Earth with its New Sky! It's not until THEN that we read,

Revelation 21:3-4
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (the sky) saying, Behold, the tabernacle (tent) of God is with men, and he will dwell (tent; camp) with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
KJV

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The type:

Ex. 19:20 Then the LORD came down upon Mount Sinai, on the top of the mountain. ... 20:18 Now all the people witnessed the thunderings, the lightning flashes, the sound of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled [JPS: fell back] and stood afar off.

The antitype:

1 Thes. 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout...

Heb. 12:18 For you have not come to the mountain [Sinai] that may be touched and that burned with fire... 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn... 25 See that you do not shun/avoid Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who shunned/avoided Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven...

Not the earthly Jerusalem, nor the earthly Mount Zion: the heavenly ones.

Gal. 4:24 ...the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above [and correspondingly, the Mount Zion above] is free, which is the mother of us all.

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