Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[iamlamad]

47 minutes ago, inchrist said:

19 hours ago, iamlamad said:

OK, please show us how you get to that figure. It should be interesting.  I cannot imagine how.

What do you know about the fall feasts?

I have not spent a lot of time on any of the feasts. As a New Testament believer I spend most of my time in the New Testament and in particular in the Epistles. These scriptures are TO the New Testament believer.  What I do know is that Jesus fulfilled the spring feasts at His first coming - so it stands to reason He will fulfill the fall feasts in our future.

 

51 minutes ago, inchrist said:

 

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 it seems more likely he was given these words to write. But then, anyone that imagines the resurrection of the two witnesses equals the resurrection of the dead in Christ has a very wild imagination

So you telling me the 2 witnesses didnt die in Christ? And not resurrected in Christ? So who were they prophecing for?

And its called the patterns of God. Two witnesses (spies) needed to escort Rahab (gentile) after the 7th trumpet of Jericho (beast kingdom).

Since you probably don't believe in dispensations, please allow me to clue you in: it is written that "the law was until John." The dispensation of Law ended with John.  Then the dispensation of Immanuel came. After Christ died and returned to heaven, the dispensation of Grace came. We are still under the dispensation of Grace. God is not looking for daily animal sacrifices as He was under the law.  Now He stands with open arms saying COME.

This age of grace will END. The door will close. Some will be left outside knocking and saying "let us in" but that door will remain closed. Suddenly the age of Grace is gone, and time will be the Day of the Lord and 70th week.  The Jews will build a new temple. A covenant  - a ONE WEEK covenant - will be confirmed that will fulfill Daniel's 70 weeks: it will be the 70th. Don't doubt me on this: it is absolute truth confirmed by the entire book of Revelation.

The two witnesses will be Old Testament saints: probably Enoch and Elijah. The day of the Lord and the 70th week are for JEWS and Hebrews - DANIEL's people - not for the church. That is why the rapture comes before the 70th week.

In case you missed it - those saints from the Old Covenant did not live IN CHRIST: He had not come yet. They lived and died as NON born again people. The born again experience could not come until Jesus died and rose again. God saved all of them - all the righteous from the Old Covenant - ON CREDIT - their salvation was charged to the Master-card. They were saved through faith also, but since JEsus had not yet come, their faith was in the Old Covenant. They had to wait in Abraham's bosom deep in the earth until Jesus rose and defeated death, and escorted them to heaven.

The two witnesses then will be Old Testament saints. However, Elijah was anointed with the Holy Spirit just as New Testament saints can be. His miracles were done as a human being anointed by the Holy Spirit - exactly the way Jesus' miracles were accomplished.

Now that Christ has died, when they come again, they will undoubtedly be born again and anointed with the Holy Spirit as they testify. But sorry, the bride of Christ will be in heaven. These two will be testifying as Old Testament saints. The age of Grace is over. The door was closed. Remember the parable of the ten virgins.

God will not need two witnesses during the first half of the week: He will have 144,000 witnesses then. Did you forget about them? if they had come in the first half, during the trumpets, John would have seen them and wrote about them. Why is it you don't like the way John wrote and wish to rearrange all the time?  Did you notice that you could take the entire verses about the two witnesses and insert them anywhere in the book? John and the Holy Spirit chose to put them right after the 42 months of trampling will begin  - FOR A PURPOSE: that is when the two show up on earth.

Good exegesis is to take the scripture AS IS and not add too it or take away from it. There is not one hint that God intends that the two witnesses represent the entire Bride of Christ.  They are two completely different entities: the Bride from the New Covenant and the two witnesses from the Old Covenant.

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

 

 

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 Yet you imagine that the entire 1260 days of testifying take place in this one chapter

I thought I made it clear the events of the witnesses takes place over the span of the trumpets ending at the 7th trumpet? Your arguments are boarding on really not making any sense.

OF COURSE they don't make sense to you, for your theories on Revelation are a jumbled up mess.  You have completed missed a huge part of John's narrative, and that is the TIMING and chronology.  Here is the TRUTH:

No one can cut and apple in halve, eat half of it, and put the other half in the refer for a few days (representing the church age) - take out the uneaten half and divide it in two, and expect to have two halves of an apple: it is IMPOSSIBLE! To end up with two halves, one must begin with a WHOLE APPLE.  Therefore, when one begins reading and studying Revelation, they must understand John is going to show them THE ENTIRE 70th week. Since you don't even know where the week begins and ends, I wonder why you are even here attempting to teach others. Teachers are going to be expected to teach TRUTH. Not everyone should want to be a teacher.  Not everyone is called to be a teacher.

Now, so you will always know: the 70th week is MARKED by 7's: the week begins at the 7th seal and ends at the 7th vial. The midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpet. Therefore the trumpets will come in the FIRST HALF of the week. Yet, John does not see or mention the two witnesses until just 3 1/2 days before the midpoint that divides the week.  THEY show up then because the man of sin that will turn into the Beast shows up in Jerusalem then. MAKE NO MISTAKE HERE! Paul tells us he will NOT BE REVEALED until he enters the temple. You imagine all will know who he is before this. This confirming of a covenant will be done behind closed doors: NO ONE except those involved will have a clue.  Perhaps a few might guess when they see three Muslim nations overcome. But the truth is, the Bride of Christ will not be here.

So here you are, attempting to teach, when what you teach is only human reasoning gone off course. 

Neither you no anyone else can pull the two witnesses verses out of chapter 11 and tell us they really happen in chapter 8. As soon as anyone says anything like this, we know their theories will be proven wrong.

May I make a suggestion? Leave Revelation as it is written, and form a theory that FITS as it is written! The two witnesses will BEGIN their testimony just before the midpoint of the week. The major part of their time will be when the Beast is doing his thing from Jerusalem. Then study until you know where both the first half and the second half of the week really is.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

 

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 So if you wish to imagine they testify in the first half of the week, that is your prerogative, but you will be wrong.

Did I not state over and over that the witnesses are part of the trumpets, did I at anytime place the trumpets in your "first half" of the week?

Your arguments are becoming pointless.

It is only your fault - and you can blame only yourself  - that you don't know or understand that the trumpets ARE IN THE FIRST HALF of the week.

And then you are wrong in your theory that they will testify during the trumpets: they show up on earth just before the 7th trumpet. Their testimony will be while the 42 months of trampling play out, while the 1260 days of fleeing play out, and while the 42 months of authority play out. The 144,000 will be God's witnesses during the first half - the trumpets half - and will be caught up to heaven. Then the two witnesses will be God's witnesses during the second half of the week. BELIEVE IT: it is truth.

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets."

This mystery has to do with the kingdoms of the world being taken from Satan and given to Jesus Christ. THAT is the big event of the 7th trumpet. Satan loses his usurped authority and is cast down. The mystery is probably that the 6000 years of man's rule is finished and the 7th thousand years where Christ will rule begins: right here at the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

If I were in your place, I would chuck all the theories you imagine are truth, into file 13 and start over. Start with NO theories  -  a clean slate - and then form theories that actually FIT what is written, AS it is written, WHEN it is written in John's narrative. In other words, LEAVE THE BOOK ALONE and don't try to rearrange it! For a theory that fits it as written.

 

Always remember,

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given Chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

In other words, your theories are suspect and will be proven wrong.

[Last Daze]

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

ia m sure you know what "finished" means, but it is for certain the 42 months or authority is not finished. It is for certain the 1260 days of testifying and fleeing is not finished. It is for sure the 42 months of trampling and authority is not finished. It is for sure TIME has not finished: there is a thousand years to go. So just what is "finished?" What is this Mystery? Paul talked of the mystery of "Christ in us, the hope of glory." But that is not finished at the 7th trumpet. There is the mystery of Christ in the Gentiles, but is that finished?

There is only ONE THING I can figure that will be finished at the 7th trumpet, and that is the reign of Satan as the god of this present world. Now THAT will finish at the 7th trumpet.  It must be a mystery still because most of the world has NO IDEA that Satan is the god of this world. 

So it is not so simple as you might imagine. The church does not end at the 7th trumpet. But you know what does end: Satan's reign on earth.  So why attempt to conger up something else when the answer is already plainly written?

As I stated earlier, if you want to know what mystery is finished at the seventh trumpet, read the seventh trumpet.  No need to employ straw-men.  This is the seventh trumpet:

• Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying, “We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign.  And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”  And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.  Revelation 11:15-19

I'd be happy to list the times that the prophets talked about the kingdom of God on earth if you wish.  I'll do so right after you list where the prophets describe God's kingdom as beginning with the reign of the Antichrist because that's what you're saying happens.  Where did God reveal that to His servants the prophets?  I'm only interested in scriptures.  Please quote them.

Hopefully you can see how irrational and conflicted your chronology is.  Seventh trumpet = the mystery of the kingdom is finished (see above scripture) as God revealed it to His servants the prophets.  The kingdom of God is established on earth.  That's what He revealed to His prophets.  Didn't He?  Regime change.  Revelation 12-19 is not chronological to, but provides additional insight for, Revelation 6-11.

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Revelation 12-19 is not chronological to, but provides additional insight for, Revelation 6-11.

No straw-man used or needed. When I read this, your theory  is immediately suspect, and will be proven wrong.

Axiom on Revelation:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

Did you read in Ezekiel 28:

¹⁵ Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

¹⁶ By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

¹⁷ Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

God said He would destroy Satan. Through this passage and others, we see Satan behind an earthly king, causing the king to do his will. From Genesis we see that the curse came on the world because of what Satan got Adam to do in the garden.

In Job we see that Satan is behind Job's trouble. All through the Old Testament we see Satan as the adversary of Israel. But God said that one day Satan would be destroyed.

Well, that day begins at the 7th trumpet. He is case down from the heavens.

Have ever signed a lease but did not take immediate possession? This is what happens in Revelation. Jesus gets the ruler-ship back at the 7th trumpet: HE is now the legal God of this planet. But John shows us that Jesus does NOT take immediate possession. In fact, He cannot, for HIS WORD IS OUT: the Beast will have 42 months of authority.

Sorry, I will go with John's chronology, not yours. Yours will be proven wrong.

Edited July 23, 2017 by iamlamad

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, Last Daze said:

 

I'd be happy to list the times that the prophets talked about the kingdom of God on earth if you wish.  

I would like to see the list. I have been searching for something and i think that would help me further my understanding. 

Thanks! 

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, inchrist said:

Ill deal with one month trumpet at a time for you in the 7th month long trumpet series:

The first trumpet month is called Nisan

Creation was done in days, not months, as in "evening and morning were the first day."  God created the grass in the 3rd day. I don't know what the month was. But whatever month, all creation was done in the same month.  I don't see anywhere in the trumpets that they are related to months either. One thing I have noticed: there are 6 trumpets to fit into 42 months: 6 trumpets times 7 months is 42.  The 7th ends the first 42 months so is not counted. The time duration is given for only one trumpet: it is five months duration.

 

11 hours ago, inchrist said:

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It is not irrelevant at all. If you believe this, it tells others more about your thinking. It is simply not truth. The fact that you believe something that is not truth....

This is not how one disputes a position, you dispute a postion with scripture. I'm not interested in your opinions. You are commanded to test all things with scripture.

So you take two scriptures that have the word "trumpet" (or trump) and state boldly that they are the same trumpet.  You offer no proof whatsoever. The truth is, there is NOTHING tying these two trumpets together except they both mention trumpets. You imagine there is a coming at the 7th trumpet, when there is not. You imagine there is a resurrection at the 7th trumpet, when there is not. You see it is YOUR OPINION that the 7th trumpet is Paul's last trump. You cannot prove it. People have been trying to prove this theory for years, and no one has, for it cannot be proven. It can only be supposed.  We both have opinions: mine follows exactly what is written. The 7th trumpet is where Jesus gets His world back.  It is where He begins to reign over physical earth. (He has been reigning of the Kingdom of God on earth). 

My theory believes what John writes, that the Day of the Lord BEGINS at the 6th seal earthquake. You don't believe it. You completely ignore all the scriptural evidence that it is true, and your opinion is something different that what is written.  My theory is exactly what is written: God's WRATH begins at the same time, with the start of the DAY, it is the day of the Lord and the Day of His wrath. The trumpet judgments then are very much a part of his wrath. They come to systematically destroy the planet: partial in the trumpets, total in the vials. Old Testament scriptures tell us that is what will happen in the DAY: God will destroy the earth and the sinners on the earth. Does burning up all the grass fit with destruction? Does turning 1/3 of the sea into blood fit with destruction? Does killing 1/3 of earth's population fit with destroying the sinners in the earth?  But this does not fit your theory, so you MAKE UP one that you like.  And then denigrate anyone who disagrees with your false theories. You are simply WRONG and won't admit it. God's wrath begins at the 6th seal and continues on throughout the week.

The 7th trumpet marks the exact midpoint of the week. this is proven by when the fleeing takes place. Yet you deny it. The two witnesses testify in the last half of the week: deny it if you will, but you will be proven wrong. EVERY mention of the 3 1/2 year period of time, whether in days, months or years, is for the second half of the week. That is the way it is written. But that does not fit your theory, so you rearrange Revelation in an attempt to make it fit. 

11 hours ago, inchrist said:

Just like Ive disputed your postion with scripture that John was unware of Pauls revelation.

No, it was Paul that was beheaded before John wrote.

11 hours ago, inchrist said:

He shall CONFIRM a covenant for one week.

The covenant is perpetual, its everlasting.

Must I imagine the word CONFIRM out the verse now?

You then argue:  I cannot even imagine that God's covenant would be for a week

Contradicting yourself and now how the covenant is for one week.

Seriously please make up your mind.

You can make jokes all you want. It is true, GOD'S COVENANTS last a long time. But Daniel was not talking about God's covenant. Again, what is written does not fit with your theory, so you just ignore what the verse really says. This is a 7 year covenant and it does not take all 7 years to confirm it. it is confirmed and then it begins. there is MUCH evidence it is a 7 year covenant.

God is NOT the He that destroys the city and the temple! You can imagine that all you want, but you will be wrong.  TITUS came and the armies he commanded destroyed the temple and the city.  The meaning is:

He shall CONFIRM a covenant [that lasts] for one week.  Get over it: it is a ONE WEEK [7 years] covenant that gets broken in the middle.

 

Edited July 23, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

21 hours ago, fixerupper said:

I KNOW.  AND THE VIEWPOINT OF CHRISTIANITY'S GREATEST PROPHET JESUS CHRIST SAID,
Immediately after the tribulation of those days....then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:....and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.....And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I believe every Christian in the WORLD believes this, or will say they do: after all, it is the written word. I believe it. But I don't believe this is Paul's rapture. Indeed, it cannot be if words mean anything.  The very same Jesus Christ who is head of the church gave Paul revelation knowledge of the rapture and Paul wrote about it. And what Paul wrote does not fit with what Jesus said: therefore Jesus was talking about a DIFFERENT gathering that will take place at a different time.

21 hours ago, fixerupper said:

ou should also believe that the word 'elect' is used to indicate CHRISTIANS in the NT and NOT ONCE is it used to indicate Jews, IF your purpose is for you to know the Word of God.
ELECT...
picked out, chosen
chosen by God,
to obtain salvation through Christ
Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians.

And you totally ignore the fact that the church age ends at the pretrib rapture so the word "elect" its the Hebrew people perfectly in that setting. After all, Daniel was very clear: the tribulation period was for HIS PEOPLE: why do you ignore this plain fact? Under the Old Covenant ISRAEL was the "elect."

21 hours ago, fixerupper said:

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What was the first point Jesus made in answering the questions the disciples asked about the end? Take heed that no man deceive you.

And you haven't paid attention and you've been deceived!  Jesus says Christians, you say Jews!  Jesus says immediately after the tribulation, you say before!

And I am right in this. You have never and will never prove that the Matthew 24 gathering is Paul's rapture. in fact, you ignore all the proof that it cannot be, such as WHERE they are gathered from.  I know God is pretrib. You have yet to learn it. But you can take this to the bank: very soon you will also be pretrib when you find yourself left behind. He is coming for those LOOKING For His coming.

[fixerupper]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

I believe every Christian in the WORLD believes this, or will say they do: after all, it is the written word. I believe it. But I don't believe this is Paul's rapture. Indeed, it cannot be if words mean anything.  The very same Jesus Christ who is head of the church gave Paul revelation knowledge of the rapture and Paul wrote about it. And what Paul wrote does not fit with what Jesus said: therefore Jesus was talking about a DIFFERENT gathering that will take place at a different time.

And you totally ignore the fact that the church age ends at the pretrib rapture so the word "elect" its the Hebrew people perfectly in that setting. After all, Daniel was very clear: the tribulation period was for HIS PEOPLE: why do you ignore this plain fact? Under the Old Covenant ISRAEL was the "elect."

And I am right in this. You have never and will never prove that the Matthew 24 gathering is Paul's rapture. in fact, you ignore all the proof that it cannot be, such as WHERE they are gathered from.  I know God is pretrib. You have yet to learn it. But you can take this to the bank: very soon you will also be pretrib when you find yourself left behind. He is coming for those LOOKING For His coming.

You can bask in your pre-trib fantasy Lamad.  

[brakelite]

If everyone in this discussion spent their time in prayer instead of reading and listening to clairvoyants' opinions and prognostications regarding the future, they might come closer to understanding the reality of times in which we are about to enter. All this proclaiming "I know the truth" and "everyone else is wrong" makes me fear for you all. 

Does anyone here consider the possibility that none of you are even remotely close and everyone, including myself, may be totally deceived?

Never preclude the possibilty of being wrong. 

[fixerupper]

Lamad,

Do you see any difference in the GRAMMAR between these trumpets?

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; 
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
    
And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Lets see if Lamad can figure it out.

Too often people disregard the definition of simple 2-3 letter words like 'as if the all end BUT etc'...