Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[OldCoot]

Since the NT was written by Yeshua believing Jewish people with a Jewish perspective, especially so with Paul and his extensive Rabbinic background, it might be productive to take a look at the meaning of first trump, last trump, and great trump that is revealed in perspectives on the festivals (which are holy rehearsals of God's plan over time as espoused in Leviticus 23) and eschatology from that Jewish perspective.  Not that Jewish perspective is equal with scripture or taken as golden, but that it can offer a little clarity to what the NT writers were saying regarding trumpets and eschatology.  While Jewish leadership definitely failed in recognition and acceptance of the Messiah, they didn't get everything wrong.

Edited July 24, 2017 by OldCoot

[Diaste]

1 minute ago, OldCoot said:

Since the NT was written by Yeshua believing Jewish people with a Jewish perspective, especially so with Paul and his extensive Rabbinic background, it might be productive to take a look at the meaning of first trump, last trump, and great trump that is revealed in perspectives on the festivals and eschatology from that Jewish perspective.  Not that Jewish perspective is equal with scripture or taken as golden, but that it can offer a little clarity to what the NT writers were saying regarding trumpets and eschatology.  While Jewish leadership definitely failed in recognition and acceptance of the Messiah, they didn't get everything wrong.

I would just like to add that the Spirit teaches us there is no  longer Jew or Greek, but all are one in Jesus Christ. Exclusive clubs are out, and we are now one family of believers through Jesus, by the Spirit of God.

[fixerupper]

1 minute ago, OldCoot said:

Since the NT was written by Yeshua believing Jewish people with a Jewish perspective, especially so with Paul and his extensive Rabbinic background, it might be productive to take a look at the meaning of first trump, last trump, and great trump that is revealed in perspectives on the festivals and eschatology from that Jewish perspective.  Not that Jewish perspective is equal with scripture or taken as golden, but that it can offer a little clarity to what the NT writers were saying regarding trumpets and eschatology.  While Jewish leadership definitely failed in recognition and acceptance of the Messiah, they didn't get everything wrong.

Jewish trumpets are not eschatological trumpets!  The ONLY trumpets that qualify to be sounded at any prophetic event like the rapture is the propheic trumpets mentioned in the book of Revelation.  Anything else is fabrication and a perversion of Jesus' and Paul's words.  I just makes no sense that the Lord would return at the sounding of some Jewish trumpet, a religion and people who deny the Christ anyway.

[fixerupper]

1 minute ago, Diaste said:

I would just like to add that the Spirit teaches us there is no  longer Jew or Greek, but all are one in Jesus Christ. Exclusive clubs are out, and we are now one family of believers through Jesus, by the Spirit of God.

The pre-tribbers have changed the meaning of 'the mystery of Christ, mystery of the kingdom of God, mystery among the gentiles, mystery of the church....I lost track of the fabrications required to counter the fabrications of pre-trib.

[OldCoot]

Just now, fixerupper said:

Jewish trumpets are not eschatological trumpets!  The ONLY trumpets that qualify to be sounded at any prophetic event like the rapture is the propheic trumpets mentioned in the book of Revelation.  Anything else is fabrication and a perversion of Jesus' and Paul's words.  I just makes no sense that the Lord would return at the sounding of some Jewish trumpet, a religion and people who deny the Christ anyway.

That just means you haven't read anything regarding Jewish eschatology.   Even in Jewish eschatology, the Last Trump has been traditionally associated with Rosh HaShanah which, according to much of Jewish eschatology, is reflective of the gathering of the righteous, the coronation of the Messiah, and the wedding of the Messiah.  

And since Rosh Hashanah falls on the 1st of the month of the Jewish calendar, and that the 1st of the month could only be established based on the declaration of the new moon, and that Rosh Hashanah is a two day festival, it is commonly called the "day that no man knows".  While not proof of anything, it does support the contention that Yeshua said that of that day no one knows but His Father.

[iamlamad]

51 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Please stick with the scriptures.  Jesus already has "ruler-ship".  Have you not read what He said after His resurrection?

• And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.  Matthew 28:18

All power.  That means all.  Jesus' life of perfect obedience to the Father made Him worthy to receive all power.  Read Revelation 5.

• Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.  Revelation 5:12

Worthy is the Lamb, the perfect sacrifice.  Jesus got "ruler-ship" back when He defeated Satan at the cross.  It's obvious bases on the above two verses.  This victory is realized at the seventh trumpet when the mystery of the kingdom is finished and Christ returns and establishes the kingdom of God on earth.  Up until then, the kingdom of God is spiritual and resides within the believer.

I would recommend that you become familiar with the Law of Recurrence.  I think it would help in your understanding of Revelation.

I post what I do for the benefit of those whose eschatology is still pliable, to give them something to think about.  If I'm proven wrong it will be in the pursuit of truth for His glory and the edification of believers.  

So you are saying that Jesus got his planet back when He defeated Satan at His resurrection. So that would have been around 32 AD.

Then please explain this:

John 12: ³¹ Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

 

Jesus acknowledged that Satan was the prince of this world.

 

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

New International Version
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
 

Eph. 2: ² Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

 

Keep in mind, Paul wrote these things years AFTER Jesus made his statement. Then we read:

 

Rev. 11: ¹⁵ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

The ONLY conclusion we can come to when we consider all these verses is that Satan had a legal right to reign so Jesus allowed that until the proper time: the 7th trumpet. Sure, Jesus had power to make the entire world disappear and everything in it: but God is a very LEGAL God and does things the legal way. It appears that God gave Adam a 6000 year lease on earth. (The scroll with 7 seals is the lease document) Satan tricked Eve and Adam sinned, and in doing so, turned this entire planet over to Satan. We could say that Satan usurped Adam's lease. He took over. He stole, through deception, Adam's authority over this planet.

Ancient Jewish sages wrote things like:

"Humanity will have his time of reign on earth for 6000 years and then the Messiah will begin His reign in the 7th millennium, a "sabbath" of sacred history."

"Six eons for going in and coming out, for war and peace. The seventh eon is entirely Shabbat for the rest of life everlasting."

According to both the Rabbis and the mystics, human history will last for 6000 years, 1000 for each day of creation, followed by a 1000 year Shabbat..."     http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Scripture/Parashah/Summaries/Eikev/Yom_Adonai/yom_adonai.html

We are very close now to the end of the 6000 year lease.  This lease ends at the 7th trumpet. That is why the transfer of the kingdom of earth, and why Satan is then cast down.

 

[iamlamad]

Just now, OldCoot said:

That just means you haven't read anything regarding Jewish eschatology.   Even in Jewish eschatology, the Last Trump has been traditionally associated with Rosh HaShanah which, according to much of Jewish eschatology, is reflective of the gathering of the righteous, the coronation of the Messiah, and the wedding of the Messiah.  

And since Rosh Hashanah falls on the 1st of the month of the Jewish calendar, and that the 1st of the month could only be established based on the declaration of the new moon, and that Rosh Hashanah is a two day festival, it is commonly called the "day that no man knows".  While not proof of anything, it does support the contention that Yeshua said that of that day no one knows but His Father.

Add to this the fact that JESUS WAS A JEW! He kept these feasts while on earth.

[iamlamad]

Just now, fixerupper said:

The pre-tribbers have changed the meaning of 'the mystery of Christ, mystery of the kingdom of God, mystery among the gentiles, mystery of the church....I lost track of the fabrications required to counter the fabrications of pre-trib.

Only in your mind - not in reality. You are going to be SO SHOCKED when Jesus comes pretrib and you are left behind wondering.

[OldCoot]

Just now, iamlamad said:

Add to this the fact that JESUS WAS A JEW! He kept these feasts while on earth.

He sure did, even Hanukah which isn't even listed in the OT festivals!   

John 10:22-23 (NKJV) Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon's porch.

[iamlamad]

5 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I would just like to add that the Spirit teaches us there is no  longer Jew or Greek, but all are one in Jesus Christ. Exclusive clubs are out, and we are now one family of believers through Jesus, by the Spirit of God.

This is true ONLY for those who are born again.