Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, OldCoot said:

 Ok. No problem.  Like I stated, I don't worry about it.  Actually, I am a pan-tribulationist.  It will all pan out according to God.  Sure, I generally hold a pre-trib idea within that, but don't really lose any sleep over those that hold mid-trib or pre-wrath positions.  My only beef is with yo-yo mindset of Post-trib, and downright rejection of Amillenialism.  

I don't concur that the church age could be viewed as an application of the  "great tribulation".  It definitely has its focus on Israel, to get them to turn to Messiah, which they will according to Hosea during this time.  And it is another wording of "time of Jacob's trouble" that many view as the final climatic attempt to destroy Israel.  The church, as we know it, really isn't in focus regarding being an entity on the earth after Revelation 3.   Tribulation saints are, but the church isn't.  It (the Ekklesia) is not mentioned anywhere after chapter 3, except in Chapter 22.  There were saints in the OT before the church became an entity at Pentacost, clear back to before the flood of Noah, so saints does not mean the Ekklesia.  This 70th week of Daniel / Great Tribulation scenario has Israel as the main focus along with the 144,000, the two witnesses, etc.  as well as the world rejection of God.  And many passages in the OT show that Messiah is the one who rescues Israel during this climatic time when they call out for the Messiah that they now recognize as the one who came and died.

 

 

It has long been the theory of most pretribbers that the rapture is sort of displayed in Rev. 4:1. But this is wishful thinking and came about only because no one really asked G0d. It was very sloppy exegesis which many knew, so they came up with other theories.

God pushed me into Revelation, and I only resisted for a while. When I chose to obey Him, I told Him I would come with an empty slate and if I was to know anything It would be His teaching.  I read and read, Daniel and Revelation, perhaps a hundred or more times, not trying to understand anything; just depositing it in my spirit.

Then one day while I was just minding my own business, reading Daniel 9:27, when my eyes and my mind got to the word "midst" God spoke, and I heard His voice and His words. He said that I could find that exact midpoint "clearly marked" in the book of Revelation  - and then told me how I could find it. Then He said I could find the entire 70th week "clearly marked" because He would use the same marker.  I did not ask for Him to speak: He chose to speak. I listened.

You see, there are SO MANY that claim to know pretrib or posttrib or even midtrib, but when asked to delineate the "trib" in Revelation they are lost. I have asked many: HOW DO YOU KNOW you are pretrib (or posttrib) when you don't even know where the "trib" is?  Here is the truth: the 70th week of Daniel (or the "trib") is marked by 7's: the 7th seal opens the 70th week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends it.

Then, if we study 1 thes. 4 & 5, we discover Paul DOES give us timing: His coming will be the trigger for the dead in Christ rising, and the dead in Christ rising will be the trigger for the "sudden destruction" which will be a great earthquake  - worldwide. At this earthquake, two different kinds of people get two different outcomes: those living in sin are left behind to suffer the sudden destruction, while those living in the light of the gospel will get raptured and get to "live together with Him."  Paul goes further and shows us that the "sudden destruction" is the start of the Day of the Lord. So we could say His coming is also the trigger for the Day of the Lord.

WHERE will we find this in Revelation? AT the 6th seal: the dead in Christ rising will trigger that great worldwide earthquake of the 6th seal. John did not see the rapture so did not write about it. But He did see the raptured church in heaven shortly there after as the great crowd, too large to number.  Look at Matthew 27: "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened."

[iamlamad]

15 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

How amusing, that is my position about pre-trib, it has no scripture behind it, only scripture which has been misapplied, mis-understood, and has a heavy dose of inference and optimism imparted to it, but that misses the point I was making. What I was saying, is that this thread, is about the defense of the post-trib/prewrath position, not the attack thereof, but you go right on ahead, don't let me disturb you!

Actually, I suppose I should be thanking you, since it is you and your fellow pre-tribbers, who are largely responsible for the confidence that I have in my current understanding of eschatology.

Sorry if we are off topic. And we all are sorry you do not understand that God is pretrib and so are the scriptures: rightly understood.

 

[Omegaman 3.0]

14 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry if we are off topic. And we all are sorry you do not understand that God is pretrib and so are the scriptures: rightly understood.

Yeah, OK  

[Last Daze]

17 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry if we are off topic. And we all are sorry you do not understand that God is pretrib and so are the scriptures: rightly understood.

Why do you so desperately push the pretrib narrative, to the point of saying that God is pretrib?  Can't you let people make up their own minds without such coercion on your part?  Don't you believe what Jesus said?

• My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;  John 10:27

Manipulating people is of the flesh, something that cults engage in.  Believers don't need to be manipulated.  They hear His voice and follow Him.  If what you speak is truth, His sheep will hear it.  You don't have to threaten people with being "left behind" or employ other manipulative techniques if they don't agree with you.

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Why do you so desperately push the pretrib narrative, to the point of saying that God is pretrib?  Can't you let people make up their own minds without such coercion on your part?  Don't you believe what Jesus said?

• My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;  John 10:27

Manipulating people is of the flesh, something that cults engage in.  Believers don't need to be manipulated.  They hear His voice and follow Him.  If what you speak is truth, His sheep will hear it.  You don't have to threaten people with being "left behind" or employ other manipulative techniques if they don't agree with you.

I have heard people say, "don't preach to them - you will drive them off." I wondered, off where? To hell #2 or hell #3? No, the unsaved are already going to the only hell there is.  So when an opportunity arises, and people are willing, we teach them the gospel. 

It is the same thing here: it is my belief, backed up by scripture, that if people are not looking for His coming, He will not be coming for them.  It is a very serious business, being left behind.  I am only desperate to save people from the horror of the days of GT - especially when God has made a way of escape.  It is mostly for the readers. The people that post here have their minds made up.

I hope you noticed, in the parable of the virgins, 50% were left out?  The doorway will close at the rapture.  People will be screaming, "why am I left behind?  I don't want anyone left behind.

Edited July 26, 2017 by iamlamad

[n2thelight]

God warns in Eph 6:13, the letter to the church, “that you may be able to withstand in the evil day.”

How are you going to be able to withstand that evil day if you believe you’re not going to be here, you are not prepared. Those that seal themselves in the word of God (Rev 9:4) are those who live and reign with Christ during the Lord's day, (2Pet 3:8) which is a 1000 year period, which is called the millennium. What are they doing there? They are teaching those that are spiritually dead. Rev 20:4. Why do they get too? Because, they were the ones that were able to stand against deception, in the evil day, the sixth trump, and they did NOT leave the field going off flying away with the first one claiming to be God, but they stood firm against the anti-christ, they remain in the field continuing to the do the Lord's work. Why? Because they have put on the full armour of God's word, His truth, and the truth always defeats deception! 

Reve 9:4 (KJS) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. 
So seal yourselves in his word, remain in the field doing His work, so that you are able to present yourself as a virgin bride to Him. (spiritually speaking!) 

[Diaste]

On 7/24/2017 at 7:05 AM, iamlamad said:

So you are saying that Jesus got his planet back when He defeated Satan at His resurrection. So that would have been around 32 AD.

Then please explain this:

John 12: ³¹ Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

 

Jesus acknowledged that Satan was the prince of this world.

 

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

New International Version
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
 

Eph. 2: ² Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

 

Keep in mind, Paul wrote these things years AFTER Jesus made his statement. Then we read:

 

Rev. 11: ¹⁵ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

The ONLY conclusion we can come to when we consider all these verses is that Satan had a legal right to reign so Jesus allowed that until the proper time:

 

Its baffling to me how you can get the above so correct, a 40 yard TD, as it were, with scriptural proof, and then shank the extra point, like below.

 

 

 

the 7th trumpet. Sure, Jesus had power to make the entire world disappear and everything in it: but God is a very LEGAL God and does things the legal way. It appears that God gave Adam a 6000 year lease on earth. (The scroll with 7 seals is the lease document) Satan tricked Eve and Adam sinned, and in doing so, turned this entire planet over to Satan. We could say that Satan usurped Adam's lease. He took over. He stole, through deception, Adam's authority over this planet.

Ancient Jewish sages wrote things like:

"Humanity will have his time of reign on earth for 6000 years and then the Messiah will begin His reign in the 7th millennium, a "sabbath" of sacred history."

"Six eons for going in and coming out, for war and peace. The seventh eon is entirely Shabbat for the rest of life everlasting."

According to both the Rabbis and the mystics, human history will last for 6000 years, 1000 for each day of creation, followed by a 1000 year Shabbat..."     http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Scripture/Parashah/Summaries/Eikev/Yom_Adonai/yom_adonai.html

We are very close now to the end of the 6000 year lease.  This lease ends at the 7th trumpet. That is why the transfer of the kingdom of earth, and why Satan is then cast down.

 

 

[Diaste]

On 7/24/2017 at 10:58 AM, inchrist said:

Beginners in Bible study see a word in one verse, then the same word in another verse.........In the very same way, some read "the last trump" and then discover the 7 trumpets in Revelation and declare to all that they have found Paul's "last trump:" it is the 7th trumpet in Revelation. And they have missed the intent of the Author by a country mile.  They are not the same trump. Paul's trump is "the trump of God." The trumpets in Rev. are NOT called "the trump of God." They are blown by angels.  See the difference? When two similar things are NOT MEANT by the Author to be the same, He will make slight differences. Paul's last trump has TIMING involved; and Paul tells us that timing in 1 thes. 5. It does not in any way fit with the 7th trumpet in Revelation.

If you ignore context anything is possible. Since the context is the end of the age it is the same 'last trump'. You display an impressive logical ineptitude in this. Where do you suppose the angels with the trumps in Revelation got the trumps they sound? Second hand music store? Garage sale? Walmart?

The only timing I see in 1 Thess 5 is "before wrath".  Since wrath 'has come' at the 6th seal and the 7th trump in Revelation, we see timing here too.

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I have heard people say, "don't preach to them - you will drive them off." I wondered, off where? To hell #2 or hell #3? No, the unsaved are already going to the only hell there is.  So when an opportunity arises, and people are willing, we teach them the gospel. 

It is the same thing here: it is my belief, backed up by scripture, that if people are not looking for His coming, He will not be coming for them.  It is a very serious business, being left behind.  I am only desperate to save people from the horror of the days of GT - especially when God has made a way of escape.  It is mostly for the readers. The people that post here have their minds made up.

I hope you noticed, in the parable of the virgins, 50% were left out?  The doorway will close at the rapture.  People will be screaming, "why am I left behind?  I don't want anyone left behind.

In fact those that come from 'great tribulation' are 'victorious' and have 'gotten the victory' over the beast, the images and the number. A detailed description of these people is offered here. Now where is the description of a group so perfect, holy and righteous, numbering in the millions, they were taken off the earth alive well before the dead are raised and those who remain were gathered at the day of the Lord? 

I think you're just afraid and don't trust in the strength of the Lord to keep you through the day of testing.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

In fact those that come from 'great tribulation' are 'victorious' and have 'gotten the victory' over the beast, the images and the number. A detailed description of these people is offered here. Now where is the description of a group so perfect, holy and righteous, numbering in the millions, they were taken off the earth alive well before the dead are raised and those who remain were gathered at the day of the Lord? 

I think you're just afraid and don't trust in the strength of the Lord to keep you through the day of testing.

You are free to think that if you wish. However, what is the truth?

Luke 21:³⁶ Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

It is a question every believer should be asking: "Am I praying to be accounted worthy to escape?" Or is my belief so far removed from the truth that I don't believe in any escape?