Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, inchrist said:

On 7/26/2017 at 7:41 AM, iamlamad said:

Not true: a postribber will be watching for the start of the "trib" or watching for the Beast. It is very simple: they believe they will see either one of these things before they will see Christ.

That doesnt negate the fact post tribs are looking for Christs return. Your argument is ridiculous.

So, you are expecting Christ's coming today? If not today, then tomorrow? This year?

If not, then you are not watching for His coming. Neither are you expecting His coming. You see how beliefs matter?

19 hours ago, inchrist said:

please provide scriputres that states that anyone who believes in post trib Christ will not come for you.....Ive been waiting with bated breath.

How many times did Jesus say WATCH in respect to His coming? Many times.

Hebrews 9: ²⁸ So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

NIV:  to those who are waiting for him.
ESV:  to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
Douay Rheims:  to them that expect him

Are you looking for Him every day? Are you looking for Him every day? Are you eagerly waiting for Him? 

It is a FACT: posttribbers are expecting something else first.

20 hours ago, inchrist said:

They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

.....post tribs have nothing to fear. 

So you will be one of the 12,000 from one of the tribes that are sealed?  Which tribe?

20 hours ago, inchrist said:

The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly, festering soresbroke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.

Nothing to fear here either for tje post tribs

Rev 16:⁴ And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.

Good luck trying to buy water.

It will be OK to lose your head. It has happened to saints recently, and will certainly happen in the future - probably by the millions.

Rev 13: ⁷ And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

 

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Like I said ,there's only 2 choices,and the rapture ain't one of them.

Either take the mark or be sealed,which brings me to my next question since that one seemed to go over your head.

Why does God's servants need to be sealed if they not gonna be here?

Why is it you are blind to the choice Luke mentions or Paul mentions?

While those living in darkness get "sudden destruction" those living in the light of the gospel will be raptured and get to live together with Him.  And Luke tells us there is an escape plan.

Why  is it you don't believe what John actually wrote? Is your mother a Jew or Hebrew? If not, you will not be in that 144,000. That is specifically for descendants of Jacob.

[iamlamad]

On 7/26/2017 at 5:00 PM, Diaste said:

First, tribulation is not wrath. The terms are not synonymous. Great tribulation is a period of time of unspecified length within the 2nd half of the last week, put to and end by the Coming of Jesus. When Jesus arrives the elect are gathered and the Wrath of God, which Jesus brings, falls on the unbelieving world until the week ends,

This many sound right, but it simply does not fit the scripture.

From the Old Covenant, we discover that the entire Day of the Lord is God's wrath.

Isaiah 13:9

Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Now compare:

Rev. 8:⁷ The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

⁸ And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

I suspect a 5th grader could recognize that the events of the trumpets is what is described on Isaiah 13. In the trumpet judgments God begins to systematically lay the land desolate, and destroy the sinners in the land.

Therefore when John wrote, "the day of His wrath has come," it came, right then, and every trumpet judgment will come as a part of God's wrath.

The truth then is that no one can separate "tribulation" from wrath in Revelation. They are concurrent.  Even during the days of Great Tribulation, when Satan's wrath is at it highest, God begins to pour out the vials of His wrath to shorten those days. So again, both tribulation and wrath are concurrent.

Edited July 28, 2017 by iamlamad

[JohnD]

An old Hindu parable goes like this:

A group of blind men heard that a strange animal, called an elephant, had been brought to the town, but none of them were aware of its shape and form. Out of curiosity, they said: "We must inspect and know it by touch, of which we are capable". So, they sought it out, and when they found it they groped about it. In the case of the first person, whose hand landed on the trunk, said "This being is like a thick snake". For another one whose hand reached its ear, it seemed like a kind of fan. As for another person, whose hand was upon its leg, said, the elephant is a pillar like a tree-trunk. The blind man who placed his hand upon its side said, "elephant is a wall". Another who felt its tail, described it as a rope. The last felt its tusk, stating the elephant is that which is hard, smooth and like a spear.

The interpretations of Bible eschatology are like this.

All three major camps have biblical evidence that would appear to contradict the other two.

This used to puzzle me.

Scripture does not contradict scripture.

Proverbs 30:5, 2 Timothy 3:16, and so on.

The Spirit taught me that it's the interpretation of scripture that was the problem.

Specifically the out of focus way most look at the 70th week of Daniel.

If the 70th week of Daniel is interpreted as one seven-year tribulation then all three major

interpretations conflict.

If the 70th week of years in Daniel 9 is properly interpreted to be

one seven-year tribulation period of TWO tribulationS (3.5 years each)

THEN all three camps agree.

The rapture of the extremely few Christians who survive in hiding to this point will take place:

PRE - Great Tribulation (last 3.5 years)

MID -  70th week of Daniel (the over all 7 year period itself)

POST - Believer's Tribulation (first 3.5 years) ††

†† prophesied in Revelation 3:10, Revelation 12:17 - 13:18 etc. 

Or we can just keep arguing over which part of the elephant we feel.

[Diaste]

13 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

This many sound right, but it simply does not fit the scripture.

From the Old Covenant, we discover that the entire Day of the Lord is God's wrath.

Isaiah 13:9

Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Now compare:

Rev. 8:⁷ The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

⁸ And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

I suspect a 5th grader could recognize that the events of the trumpets is what is described on Isaiah 13. In the trumpet judgments God begins to systematically lay the lade desolate, and destroy the sinners in the land.

Therefore when John wrote, "the day of His wrath has come," it came, right then, and every trumpet judgment will come as a part of God's wrath.

The truth then is that no one can separate "tribulation" from wrath in Revelation. They are concurrent.  Even during the days of Great Tribulation, when Satan's wrath is at it highest, God begins to pour out the vials of His wrath to shorten those days. So again, both tribulation and wrath are concurrent.

What are u on about? The only one that thinks  you make sense, is you.

Of course the entire day of the Lord is the wrath of God. This is not profound insight. Students of the end of the age have know this since Paul taught as much in the mid 1st century.

This is your problem, you think EVERYTHING you think concerning the end of the age is profound insight, when it's either common knowledge or some skit you conjured on your Fantasy Island, allowing for the rare exception where you do speak the truth...

Rev 8:7-8 are not day of the Lord verses unless there is verbiage attesting this, and there is not. You have no idea if the calamity of 8:7-8 reach the level of the cruel, evil day that is the Lord's wrath. It is likely they do not as the wrath of God is described in detail in the vials, and is far more intense and brutal than Rev 8:7-8, and for the most part targets people directly, where 8:7-8 targets the earth. Very different. 

Matt 24 refutes your erroneous assertion of the concurrency of trib and wrath. The order is as follows: beginning of sorrows, A of D, great trib, the 2nd coming, gathering of the elect, and the wrath of God.  In that order and only in that order, as Jesus taught. All the seals are opened and all the trumpets blown by the time of the gathering and the 2nd coming. Only the vials are left to be poured out finishing the wrath, man's rule, and bringing the age to a close. 

Edited July 27, 2017 by Diaste

[warrior12]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Wow. Did you even bother to try and understand his frustration? No. Just pulled out the self righteous statements forgetting your own failures and frustration, or assuming you don't have any. Good job taking care of a brother in pain.

Many times i have replied to his post.  This has all to do about respecting others, even within your frustration.  We don't go about cursing and swearing at people when you get frustrated.  He has been doing this since he has been on this forum abusing and treating people with disrespectful comments.  So to answer your question. Yes, i have spoken to him about this only two days ago.  Not because this forum is tolerant of heated debates that i think is fine, you make your points with abusive and degrading statements.  If he was spoken to about his demeanor, then some change should be demonstrated or he has to make apologies for his gross behavior.   In a civil society, this is what is expected.  This has nothing to do with me being self righteous and don't take the ball out the court.  

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, warrior12 said:

Many times i have replied to his post.  This has all to do about respecting others, even within your frustration.  We don't go about cursing and swearing at people when you get frustrated.  He has been doing this since he has been on this forum abusing and treating people with disrespectful comments.  So to answer your question. Yes, i have spoken to him about this only two days ago.  Not because this forum is tolerant of heated debates that i think is fine, you make your points with abusive and degrading statements.  If he was spoken to about his demeanor, then some change should be demonstrated or he has to make apologies for his gross behavior.   In a civil society, this is what is expected.  This has nothing to do with me being self righteous and don't take the ball out the court.  

I agree that some behavior is inappropriate and this forum has rules and we should abide by them. From what I have seen here many are quick to upbrade what is seen as bad behavior while allowing all manner viewpoints on every subject, some heretical and blasphemous. Fixerupper is frustrated by this and he should be.

But that's ok.  Make sure he knows he overstepped and we'll let old coot and iamlamad spout nonsense till the cows come home.

[warrior12]

11 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I agree that some behavior is inappropriate and this forum has rules and we should abide by them. From what I have seen here many are quick to upbrade what is seen as bad behavior while allowing all manner viewpoints on every subject, some heretical and blasphemous. Fixerupper is frustrated by this and he should be.

But that's ok.  Make sure he knows he overstepped and we'll let old coot and iamlamad spout nonsense till the cows come home.

So then are you supporting his expletives, because that was what he used here plainly.  I did not see you say a word to him, but you are looking at me for pointing out his bad behavior.   Well, i for one is not putting up with his crap. He is a grown up and can have a decent conversation without cussing and being abusive.  Those guys did not abuse him in anyway,  Disagreements, we have plenty here on this forum, but one don't cuss and show utmost disrespect for the people that are  viewing this forum all over the world.   There are many ways to vent one's frustration, i hope people don't let their kids see and hear it the wrong way, as it would be setting the wrong examples. 

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, warrior12 said:

So then are you supporting his expletives, because that was what he used here plainly.  I did not see you say a word to him, but you are looking at me for pointing out his bad behavior.   Well, i for one is not putting up with his crap. He is a grown up and can have a decent conversation without cussing and being abusive.  Those guys did not abuse him in anyway,  Disagreements, we have plenty here on this forum, but one don't cuss and show utmost disrespect for the people that are  viewing this forum all over the world.   There are many ways to vent one's frustration, i hope people don't let their kids see and hear it the wrong way, as it would be setting the wrong examples. 

No. I find that when it comes to that one of two things has happened. Ran out of cogent arguments or lost composure.  I sent a private message trying to get him to open up about his obviously sincere frustrations. No reply as of yet. And you have seen my posts, I confront the garbage head on, and I can tell you his adversaries were engaging in a subtle form of mental and emotional abuse.  The problem is I feel his frustration and I'm interested to know the cause. I agree we can have civil discourse, and should, but passions run high and that's not a bad thing.

Now maybe he's just a rotten person with no self control. Could be. But just demanding a certain behavior won't make it stop, or the prisons would be empty.  We should strive to walk with them and understand. Not a lesson the corporate church teaches. I've been there. Control, control, control, and money. That's the modern Christian church.

Has anyone tried to understand his point? Or have we just judged him incorrigible?

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Diaste said:

No. I find that when it comes to that one of two things has happened. Ran out of cogent arguments or lost composure.  I sent a private message trying to get him to open up about his obviously sincere frustrations. No reply as of yet. And you have seen my posts, I confront the garbage head on, and I can tell you his adversaries were engaging in a subtle form of mental and emotional abuse.  The problem is I feel his frustration and I'm interested to know the cause. I agree we can have civil discourse, and should, but passions run high and that's not a bad thing.

Now maybe he's just a rotten person with no self control. Could be. But just demanding a certain behavior won't make it stop, or the prisons would be empty.  We should strive to walk with them and understand. Not a lesson the corporate church teaches. I've been there. Control, control, control, and money. That's the modern Christian church.

Has anyone tried to understand his point? Or have we just judged him incorrigible?

Most here are aware of his past posts ( you can find them in his activity on his profile) and where he stands on things that really matter ie the trinity, God is Jesus, and other things that are eternally important.  If you want to help him maybe you can start there because eschatology is not a salvific issue unless one is a preterist.