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Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position


George

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Don't think we will ever agree,so I'll just leave this for now

I Thessalonians 4:13-18

The subject is where are the dead.

V13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

asleep in Greek means to decease, to be dead. This is talking about people that are already dead not people that are living on earth now. The second our flesh body dies our soul goes back to God.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
V7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

We can take comfort knowing that our loved ones who have passed on are with God our Father and not lying in a hole in the ground. The flesh body stays in the ground but our soul goes back to God. The people that have no hope are those that do not believe in Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God.

V14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

This is talking about people that have passed on that believed in Jesus Christ as the Son of God.

V15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Prevent means to precede before hand, to have arrived at already. We are still talking about where the dead are the subject has not changed. This verse tells us that people that have died are already with Jesus. The people alive when Jesus returns will not be with Jesus before the people that have already passed away because they are already there.

V16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This tells us when Jesus will return and not before. This is not the rapture. The rapture is a lie and can not be found in God's word. This is talking about the second coming of Jesus at the end of the tribulation. Jesus will come at the seventh trump and not before the seventh trump for anyone. Those that have died already rise first because they are already with Jesus. The second we die we go back to God our Father.

V17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This happens after the tribulation when Jesus returns as Lord of lords and King of kings. This is not talking about a rapture, their is no rapture. Clouds is symbolic for a mass of people.

Hebrews 12:1
V1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

When Jesus returns at the seventh trump the people alive on earth at that time will be changed into their spiritual bodies in the twinkling of an eye.

I Corinthians 15:52-53
V52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
V53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The rapture is a lie from Satan trying to trick God's children into believing in a easy way out. Always remember as long as we are still in our flesh bodies the true Christ has not returned yet. Satan will come back to this earth with supernatural powers saying he is Christ here to rapture you away but it is a lie.

V18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

We can comfort our loved ones and friends when they lose some one they love because we can tell them where their loved ones are when they pass away. The moment some one dies they go back to God our Father.

You may be surprised to know that God's word does say something about people teaching you to fly away to try to save your soul. What does God's word say about this, lets go to Ezekiel 13 to find out.

Ezekiel 13:16-23

V16 To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord GOD

Their will be no true peace until Jesus returns to this earth after the antichrist has been here and not before, for anyone. Some people believe in the false peace of the rapture and it is just that a false peace. The prophets talked about here are false prophets not teaching the true word of God. People telling you that you don't have to read the book of Revelation because you'll be gone. They are lying to you, their is no rapture and God is against people that tell you their is.

V17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,

This is telling people who know the truth to tell the truth to God's other children. The ones that prophesy out of their own heart are ones that go on teaching the lie that their is a rapture when God Himself said that it's not true.

V18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

The pillows and kerchiefs these false prophets use to cover the outstretched arms of Jesus by teaching the lie of the rapture. The people that teach others the rapture are leading them right to the arms of the antichrist. Nowhere in the word of God does it say that Jesus will come for anybody before the great tribulation. God asked if these false prophets will save these people that they lie to by teaching them the rapture. When in fact these false prophets are leading these people straight to death, the antichrist. Only Jesus Christ can save somebody.

V19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?

Some people are lying to God's children just for money. They are slaying souls by teaching people the rapture which will lead them right into the arms of the antichrist when he comes to earth claiming to be Jesus Christ.

V20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

God Himself is against the teaching of a quick escape to save your soul. God is saying that their is no rapture. The true Jesus Christ is not coming back for anyone until after the antichrist has already been on earth, God said so. God is against people that teach lies to His children about the rapture. It covers the outstretched arms of the true Jesus by leading His children right into the arms of the antichrist.

V21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

God will save His people from the lie of the rapture by giving the truth in His word. Read the word on your own and ask God to give you understanding in His word so you can see the truth about the rapture.

V22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:

The righteous is Jesus Christ, we all fall short to His righteousness. God is telling us by people teaching the lie of the rapture Jesus becomes sad. Sad because they are being deceived and lead strait to the antichrist. By teaching the rapture people strengthen the hand of Satan who is the antichrist.

V23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

God will deliver His people by giving them the truth in His word.

In II Thessalonians 2:1-12 it talks about the return of Jesus Christ. It tells us their are certain things that must happen before Jesus returns to this earth.

II Thessalonians 2:1-12

V1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Beseech means to ask or request a person to do something. This is telling us to pay attention because this tells us what must happen before Jesus returns.

V2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

This is saying don't believe people when they say Jesus Christ can come at any time. Their are things that must happen before Jesus returns.

V3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Don't let any one deceive you, read God's word with understanding. This verse tells us that Jesus will not return until the son of perdition be revealed. Perdition means to perish and die. Satan is the only one who has been sentenced to death by God so far.

Ezekiel 28:11-19
V11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
V12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
V13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
V14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
V15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
V16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
V17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
V18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
V19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

John 17:12
V12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy name: those that Thou gavest Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

II Thessalonians verse 3 tells us that Jesus will not come for anyone until Satan is revealed. Their is no rapture. Jesus will not come for anybody until that happens. Satan is the one that deceives the world and that can be read in Revelation 12:9 and 20:10

Revelation 12:9
V9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 20:10
V10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

V4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Satan is the antichrist and will return to this earth with supernatural powers able to have lighting fall from heaven. Many will be deceived and think that he is Jesus here to rapture them away. Satan will sit in the temple of God which is in Jerusalem.

V6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
V7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Satan will be cast out of heaven down to earth to play the roll of Jesus Christ. Satan will say that he is here to rapture you away but as always Satan is lying. Satan will be cast out of heaven by Michael in the last days.

Revelation 12:7-9
V7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
V8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
V9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

This will happen before the true Jesus returns to this earth. The true Jesus will not come for any one until Satan is already here on earth.

V8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

This is when Satan is on this earth saying he is Jesus here to rapture you away. Then the true Jesus returns to earth as King of kings and Lord of lords and Satan is bound for a thousand years.

Revelation 20:1-3
V1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
V2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
V3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

V9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Jesus returns after Satan has already been on earth claming to be Jesus saying he is here to rapture you away. Satan is the antichrist and he will come before the true Jesus Christ.

V10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Many will be deceived by Satan because he is the king of deception. He will have supernatural powers and many will believe that he is Jesus because they did not receive the truth in God's word. We need to read the word of God on our own and ask Him to give us understanding in His word. Don't believe what anyone tells you read God's word for your self it's your life.

V11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
V12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

People who don't read God's word with understanding and do not believe in the truth of His word will go on believing in lies. We are to study God's word.

II Timothy 2:15
V15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Read God's word and ask Him to give you understanding in His word. The rapture is a total lie from Satan himself. Nowhere in God's word does it say that Jesus will come back for any one before Satan comes to earth as the antichrist. As long as we are still in our flesh bodies the true Jesus Christ has not returned yet.

Just know,your very soul is at stake..........

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1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

And it still needs to factor in how Isaiah (Isa 26), David (Psalm 27), and Zephaniah (Zeph 2) stated that the righteous are hidden from the time of trouble as referenced in Jeremiah 30, which I believe is in view in the 70th week of Daniel, as Daniel makes reference to Jeremiah's writings elsewhere.  Isaiah even ties the resurrection along with this hiding of the righteous, that both are kept from this calamity.   And Jesus himself supported the concept when He stated that we pray that we may be worthy to escape all these things (Luke 21).  That would include "all" including the false messiah's arrival on the scene, which is before the desecration of temple at the mid point.  

 

The references to Isaiah 26, Psalm 27, Zephaniah 2, and Jeremiah 30 all speak to the nation of Israel, and not the church.  They also are all addressing what is happening on earth, not things that will take place in heaven, so none of these in any way speak to a rapture.  What they speak to is the same thing one finds in Revelation 12 regarding Israel during the 3 1/2 year period of the great tribulation.

 

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15 The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. 16 But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth.

 

Zechariah prophesied about 2/3 of Israel that will be cut off and die, and 1/3 that will be brought through the fire, this would be the righteous mentioned in all of the passages you referenced.  None of this has anything to do with Gentiles, these prophecies were all in regards to Israel.

God bless

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10 hours ago, warrior12 said:

There is no reason, absolutely none for a person to use four letter words on this forum.  Go back and see all his posts.  He dislikes christians ect.  Ok, I know tons of people who do also and i also know it is to be expected. But if you are in debate, you cannot throw stones at your opponent, then it is no longer a debate but a ??.   I have seen many threads locked with lesser things he have said and the moderators were lenient on his remarks.  But he kept on doing the same thing over and over.  He is an intelligent person and can make meaningful contributions here, but i think one of his stance is that he thinks his dogmatic views is right and the others contesting or arguing the views are totally wrong.  He gets upset by this and it is his sticking point for his getting out of control with the pen.   

It is not about demanding a certain behavior, but obeying the rules of conduct outlined here.  Did you actually saw what he wrote.  George blotted out the bad language, but it was horrible.  Many people are reading this forum and the rules must be enforced.  This is enough for me on this thread and i think he need to take some time to sort out how he is going to proceed on the forums.  Hope i have not offended you or anyone as it is not my intention. It is to bring to attention that all must observe the rules and if they feel offended , then there are avenues they can take provided here with the Admin staff.      

I fully agree with you. That kind of language just build walls as it's personal attack, never a good thing. I did go check out some of his posts in other discussions and I see what you are saying. I know this isn't the tread for this but I just can't help myself. :)

I taught this several years ago in the Christian church:

2 Cor 9:7

Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

This refutes the 'tithe' as the tithe is 'of necessity' not a free will offering. The church leadership told me I could not say this to others. Isn't that a pip?

This is typical of the Christian church for decades now when it comes doctrine. Hypocrites and snakes is what Jesus called the religious leadership. I don't see it as much different today. 

This is just one example of many in all sizes of congregations. It's no wonder fixerupper doesn't trust, I don't either. He's defending the fundamental Word and his passion is getting the best of him. Lamentable because its a setback for him. Laudable because he's hot for Jesus and the truth.

 

 

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5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

So if the entire day of the Lord is wrath, why don't you believe John when He tells you it starts at the 6th seal? After all, they saw the earthquake, and Isaiah 2 tells us this earthquake is the start of the day. They saw the signs in the sun and moon, and Joel tells them it is the start of the Day. So we have two witnesses plus John TELLING us it is the start of the Day.  Yet you ignore the obvious because it does not fit your theory.

I have a novel idea: why don't you dump your theory that does not fit, and come up with one the does fit.

Rev 8:7-8: You are just showing us your lack of knowledge of the word of God. Go back and read Joel 1, where he prophecies of the grass being burned up, and tells us it is the DAY.

Joel 1:

15 Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

...

18 How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yea, the flocks of sheep are made desolate.

19 O Lord, to thee will I cry: for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field.

Rev. 8: The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Go back and read Isaiah 2, which John quotes almost word for word about people going into the holes in the rocks and crying for the rocks to fall on them. There can be no doubt, the 6th seal is the fulfillment of that prophecy of Isaiah 2.

Isaiah 2:12 For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Rev 6: 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake;

Rev. 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come

 

I know the Day of the Lord begins at the 6th seal, what's your point? 

And Joel is seeing conditions in the time just before the Day of the Lord. Joel says, "For the day of the Lord is near;" and, "it will come".  Joel does not say the Day 'has come' as the Day is close but not yet here, meaning the conditions the trumps bring occur before the 6th seal.

Edited by Diaste
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5 hours ago, wingnut- said:

The references to Isaiah 26, Psalm 27, Zephaniah 2, and Jeremiah 30 all speak to the nation of Israel, and not the church.  They also are all addressing what is happening on earth, not things that will take place in heaven, so none of these in any way speak to a rapture.  What they speak to is the same thing one finds in Revelation 12 regarding Israel during the 3 1/2 year period of the great tribulation.

 

Not so sure about that.  David seems to be speaking only of himself in Psalm 27.  And Zephaniah 2:1, the Hebrew behind the "nation" is Goy from which we get Goyim, or gentiles.  And in the Jewish mindset, the gentiles are the undesirable nation.  Whether it speaks of a rapture or not, people are being hidden in some chambers from the indignation of God as He is coming out of his place.  And the Dead are resurrected during this event per Isaiah.  Now if only happening on the earth and not in heaven, we will have a bunch of dead people running around with us.  But Jesus did say that in His Father's house are many chambers, and that He was going back to prepare a place for us.  That is why it seems to me to be a reference of some kind of rapture, removal, etc and not exclusively tied to Israel.  

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The only escape is, For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but will obtain everlasting life.

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19 hours ago, OldCoot said:

And it still needs to factor in how Isaiah (Isa 26), David (Psalm 27), and Zephaniah (Zeph 2) stated that the righteous are hidden from the time of trouble as referenced in Jeremiah 30, which I believe is in view in the 70th week of Daniel, as Daniel makes reference to Jeremiah's writings elsewhere.  Isaiah even ties the resurrection along with this hiding of the righteous, that both are kept from this calamity.   And Jesus himself supported the concept when He stated that we pray that we may be worthy to escape all these things (Luke 21).  That would include "all" including the false messiah's arrival on the scene, which is before the desecration of temple at the mid point.  

And a lot of it centers around how we see the Apostasia of 2 Thes 2.  Either a "falling away" or a "departure".  Good scholars debate that.  I tend to side with those, like Kenneth Wuest, who argue that since there is not a definite article to show what is being departed from, that the word stands on its own as meaning simply a departure, and not a departure from the faith, or falling away.  Only if the passage had shown what is being departed from, the faith for instance, could one aptly translate the word to a general "falling away".  

The only other time that word is used is in Acts 21.  And that context shows a departure from Moses (the Law), so a falling away application in that context would be correct, as there is a definite article (the law) as shown what is being departed from.  We don't have that in 2 Thes 2.

It's interesting that you reference Jeremiah and the relationship to the 70th week. I assume you seek to prove the people of God are hidden away from any trouble that may come upon them, as Isaiah 26, Psalm 27, and Zephaniah 2 seem to suggest. You relate this to the church and you are not wrong to do so. Gentiles have been grafted into the natural olive tree, Israel, after the resurrection of Jesus.  But you didn't read Jeremiah 30 in full did you? One has to read the material. So important. You, and many others of the pretrib persuasion, missed the part that refutes the idea of an 'early escape'. To wit:

Jeremiah 30

Though I completely destroy all the nations
    among which I scatter you,
    I will not completely destroy you.  Means that some destroying of Jacob will occur.
I will discipline you but only in due measure;
    I will not let you go entirely unpunished.’
  And there is it! Punished. God punishes his own people. Your God, and my God, will punish Jacob and the grafted Gentiles.

 

12 “This is what the Lord says:

“‘Your wound is incurable,
    your injury beyond healing.

What?! The people of God are beyond cure and healing? Now that can't be right.


13 There is no one to plead your cause,
    no remedy for your sore,
    no healing for you.
14 All your allies have forgotten you;
    they care nothing for you.
I have struck you as an enemy would
    and punished you as would the cruel,

Even worse! He strikes his own people like an enemy? With cruel punishment? WHY?


because your guilt is so great
    and your sins so many.

Oh. Because the people of God are sinful and guilty. Now that has to be the eye opener of the year!


15 Why do you cry out over your wound,
    your pain that has no cure?

And look...the people lament their own incurable pain and do not understand why, nor do they entreat the Healer. Sad.


Because of your great guilt and many sins
    I have done these things to you.

Because of the sins and guiltiness of the people God sends punishment.

All who are alive when the 70th week begins, and until they die, are going through the beginning of sorrows, the A of D, and great tribulation right up until the Lord returns and gathers us up.

Cheer up, we are the winners!

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3 hours ago, Diaste said:

It's interesting that you reference Jeremiah and the relationship to the 70th week. I assume you seek to prove the people of God are hidden away from any trouble that may come upon them, as Isaiah 26, Psalm 27, and Zephaniah 2 seem to suggest. You relate this to the church and you are not wrong to do so. Gentiles have been grafted into the natural olive tree, Israel, after the resurrection of Jesus.  But you didn't read Jeremiah 30 in full did you? One has to read the material. So important. You, and many others of the pretrib persuasion, missed the part that refutes the idea of an 'early escape'. To wit:

Jeremiah 30

Though I completely destroy all the nations
    among which I scatter you,
    I will not completely destroy you.  Means that some destroying of Jacob will occur.
I will discipline you but only in due measure;
    I will not let you go entirely unpunished.’
  And there is it! Punished. God punishes his own people. Your God, and my God, will punish Jacob and the grafted Gentiles.

 

12 “This is what the Lord says:

“‘Your wound is incurable,
    your injury beyond healing.

What?! The people of God are beyond cure and healing? Now that can't be right.


13 There is no one to plead your cause,
    no remedy for your sore,
    no healing for you.
14 All your allies have forgotten you;
    they care nothing for you.
I have struck you as an enemy would
    and punished you as would the cruel,

Even worse! He strikes his own people like an enemy? With cruel punishment? WHY?


because your guilt is so great
    and your sins so many.

Oh. Because the people of God are sinful and guilty. Now that has to be the eye opener of the year!


15 Why do you cry out over your wound,
    your pain that has no cure?

And look...the people lament their own incurable pain and do not understand why, nor do they entreat the Healer. Sad.


Because of your great guilt and many sins
    I have done these things to you.

Because of the sins and guiltiness of the people God sends punishment.

All who are alive when the 70th week begins, and until they die, are going through the beginning of sorrows, the A of D, and great tribulation right up until the Lord returns and gathers us up.

Cheer up, we are the winners!

 

I mentioned Jeremiah as only a side note, that Daniel could have had Jeremiah in view, since Daniel said he had been reading Jeremiah early in Chapter 9. I didn't reference Jeremiah, Daniel did in his book.  Daniel was reading Jeremiah in Chapter 9 and seeing that the years in Babylon were near an end.  Considering that Chapter 9 also is the one that lays out the 70 weeks prophecy, it was merely an assumption on my part that Daniel probably had Jeremiah in view when he was given the 70 week prophecy.

The passages I specifically referenced were the ones in Isaiah, Psalms, and Zephaniah.  

One thing that seems goofy to me, but then ask my wife, I am a goofy person.... for those that hold to a post trib position, but why would Jesus catch us up in the air when on His way down to the earth, if the catching up is when He returns to rule?  Why not just show up and set things up and rule?   Seems like a yo-yo rapture.  

And it really seems strange regarding a post-trib rapture.  The church is the bride of Christ.  So imagine it this way.... "I betroth you to be my bride.  Then I am going to beat the snot out of you for many months and won't protect you from harm when the world is collapsing around you, then I will come for you and we will go have dinner."   And then read Paul in 1 Thes 4:18 where he wrote, in context of last days events, "comfort one another with these words."   Can you imagine how those outside the church would picture this and say "no thanks" to the Gospel?   

Good believers can differ and offer positions for pre or mid trib, pre-wrath, etc, and we can banter these concepts around.  But post trib and amillenial really seems to fly in the face of who Jesus is and His character, as well as the totality of scripture.

And if we really cut thru to the truth, many of these concepts of the church having to deal with this Great Tribulaiton / 70th week of Daniel / Day of the Lord / etc stems from our base human nature that we have to "earn" or "prove" ourselves worthy.  That is the basis of just about every religion on the planet and totally against the plain message of the Gospel.

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7 hours ago, inchrist said:

Sorry but  how does Post trib fly in the of Christ Character?

Since it implies that God does not keep His promises or keep His word.  The one thing that God delights in most is making and keeping His promises. And He holds HIs word higher than anything else.  There are many passages in both OT and NT that claim the righteous will be hid from the time that God brings forth His anger upon the earth before the Messiah returns.  Either those are true, or God is a liar.  The father is the one who executes the wrath upon the earth, not the Messiah.....

Psalms 110:1 (NKJV) The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”

Zephaniah 2:1-3 (NKJV) Gather yourselves together, yes, gather together,
O undesirable nation, (literal: gentiles)
2 Before the decree is issued,
Or the day passes like chaff,
Before the Lord's fierce anger comes upon you,
Before the day of the Lord's anger comes upon you!
3 Seek the Lord, all you meek of the earth,
Who have upheld His justice.
Seek righteousness, seek humility.
It may be that you will be hidden
In the day of the Lord's anger.

Isaiah 26:19-21 (NKJV) Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
Take Refuge from the Coming Judgment
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.

21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

And meanwhile, when the righteous are hidden, Messiah cannot return until national Israel calls out to Him in their despair, in the Day of Trouble and Calamity, the time in which the Father is executing His wrath upon the earth:

Hosea 5:15 - 6:1 (NKJV) I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.

Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”
Chapter 6
1 Come, and let us return to the Lord;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.

Matthew 23:37-39 (NKJV) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, OldCoot said:

 

I mentioned Jeremiah as only a side note, that Daniel could have had Jeremiah in view, since Daniel said he had been reading Jeremiah early in Chapter 9. I didn't reference Jeremiah, Daniel did in his book.  Daniel was reading Jeremiah in Chapter 9 and seeing that the years in Babylon were near an end.  Considering that Chapter 9 also is the one that lays out the 70 weeks prophecy, it was merely an assumption on my part that Daniel probably had Jeremiah in view when he was given the 70 week prophecy.

The passages I specifically referenced were the ones in Isaiah, Psalms, and Zephaniah.  

 

One thing that seems goofy to me, but then ask my wife, I am a goofy person.... for those that hold to a post trib position, but why would Jesus catch us up in the air when on His way down to the earth, if the catching up is when He returns to rule?  Why not just show up and set things up and rule?   Seems like a yo-yo rapture.  

And it really seems strange regarding a post-trib rapture.  The church is the bride of Christ.  So imagine it this way.... "I betroth you to be my bride.  Then I am going to beat the snot out of you for many months and won't protect you from harm when the world is collapsing around you, then I will come for you and we will go have dinner."   And then read Paul in 1 Thes 4:18 where he wrote, in context of last days events, "comfort one another with these words."   Can you imagine how those outside the church would picture this and say "no thanks" to the Gospel?   

Good believers can differ and offer positions for pre or mid trib, pre-wrath, etc, and we can banter these concepts around.  But post trib and amillenial really seems to fly in the face of who Jesus is and His character, as well as the totality of scripture.

And if we really cut thru to the truth, many of these concepts of the church having to deal with this Great Tribulaiton / 70th week of Daniel / Day of the Lord / etc stems from our base human nature that we have to "earn" or "prove" ourselves worthy.  That is the basis of just about every religion on the planet and totally against the plain message of the Gospel.

Well yes, we are hidden, from God's anger, not from persecution. If we were to be hidden from persecution then what do we tell Christians around the world that are persecuted and dying today for the testimony they hold? Why didn't God hide them from trouble? Scripture recounts an aspect of the character of God that many simply don't want to deal with, he disciplines and punishes his wayward children. This is fully keeping in character for Jesus as Jesus is God. Jesus created everything. There has never been a time when Jesus did not exist. He is the Alpha and Omega, the mighty God.

I don't see rhetorical ideas such as yo-yos to be effective in the search for truth. All statements like this do is cast doubt. Much like the 'beat the snot out of you' statement. If that's the best argument you have for pretrib then pretrib is substantially false. Post some scripture that proves a pretrib rapture that also must refute the gathering in Matt 24 that happens after the sign of the coming of the Son of Man, when all the world beholds his glory. 

The problem for pretrib is a gathering in Matt 24 is conspicuous and a pretrib gathering is supposition based on poor rhetoric, bad exegesis, and false hope.

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