Jump to content
IGNORED

Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position


George

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  14
  • Topic Count:  66
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  6,599
  • Content Per Day:  2.00
  • Reputation:   2,355
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  03/17/2015
  • Status:  Offline

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

What you are saying is, God is NOT ALLOWED to have any other gatherings! Will you really put God in such a box?

Scriptures have been posted, and rejected. If posted they would be rejected again. You see verses one way, pretrib sees them another way. It has been such for many years, and will continue right up until Christ comes and proves one side wrong.

I will ask one simple question: where or how do you see "peace and safety" happening anywhere in Rev. 16 through 19? I see it NOW, in many nations of the world, but I cannot see it after the 7 vials have been poured out and the planet's population has been reduced perhaps by 90%.  Everyone will be scared out of their wits. 

More tedious, manipulative rhetoric. I will never be swayed by loaded questions or red herrings. Post the scriptures in full context and stand behind them instead of the cop out.

There can be dozens of gatherings if that's what God decides, that's not the issue. Reality is; the disciples asked When and What about His coming and the end of the age. Then Jesus told them. There is a conspicuous gathering in Matt 24:31. Jesus makes a big deal out of mentioning it, lots of detail, very specific. If this gathering of no doubt millions of people is conspicuous, then why no similar mention of a gathering that would include 100's of millions from all around the world, throwing the world into chaos as depicted by Left Behind?  

Since Revelation is NOT strictly chronological but more of the chronological/concurrent type of outline, and it's written in a narrative style I could never agree to your premise. This means there is a plot with lots of characters and events leading up to the climax. Some chapters advance the story in order and in relation to each other, while some in between chapters are used as a parenthetical, detailing characters and events. Chapter 13 does not necessarily follow Chapter 12 in the timeline. Chapter and verse were added for organizations sake, not to define a strict chronology. 

But to answer your question, I don't necessarily see 'peace and safety' in Rev at all. My current understanding of this is; the world cries for peace and safety, reported on the news almost daily, especially when there's a terrorist attack, and this is the cry before the destruction as it leads to throwing in with the first entity that will sate this need. It's also about Israel as their cry for peace and safety has been going on since 1948. But there has been a more global outcry of late since the rise of ISIS.

Not sure what point your making.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  14
  • Topic Count:  66
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  6,599
  • Content Per Day:  2.00
  • Reputation:   2,355
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  03/17/2015
  • Status:  Offline

15 hours ago, OldCoot said:

If you read the passage closer, the armies that are with Him do not do any fighting either. That cannot be known from the text. No mention of engagement of the armies or non-engagement. Thought since they are armies one would suspect they are involved in the fighting.  Jesus is the one who fights and overcomes these enemies.  Zechariah 14 is a supporting reference to Rev 19:14, and Zechariah says that the Lord comes with His saints, Actually 'holy ones' is a normal translation and not specific. So I'm not convinced it's the gathered elect. and the context is clearly the that great "day of the Lord". True. In Jude 14, we see that again, also with the "day of the Lord" in the context.  Again this word is 'holy' and not specific to the elect. Angels are also called holy.  And Rev 17:14, when the people of the earth give authority to the Beast to make war against the Lamb of God, those that are with Jesus are "chosen and faithful".   This is a general statement contrasting the ones who side with the beast and those who side with Jesus. The words "favorite and reliable" do not connote combatants. The same word is used in Matt 24 but not used in Rev 19:14, Jude 14 nor in Zech 14:5 Seems like a saint reference to me. Only seems? Do the research. And if He comes with His saints, they had to have been gathered to Him at some point previous to His coming. Let me see. 9 am is previous to 10 am. 9:45 am is also previous to 10 am. Jesus could translate the dead and gather the elect in a very short period of time, say after the sign of his coming and just prior to his appearance where the world sees him. In the space of a half hour perhaps. But none of that is specified. what is specified is the angels are sent to gather the elect. Jesus would then be free to lead his armies of holy ones to the battleground.  None of the passages allows for gathering to him after. Not after, but begun and during. He is already in route.  

 

How I am going to know is the same way anyone is going to know if their position is correct... how it plays out in reality.  That has to do more with knowing that I am justified. I am very comfortable in knowing what the Gospel is and what it means to be sealed to the day of redemption because of my belief in Messiah, His death, burial, and resurrection, and trusting in Him to be faithful and true.

 

Nothing personal, just a statement of fact.  It is an inherent flaw in every person that they feel they need to have some measure of claim in guaranteeing their salvation. But you have already stated that you do not suffer such personal burdens, it's just for the other poor souls that have deluded themselves. It is the basis of just about every religion in history, and especially so today.  We can work our way to God has been the cornerstone of virtually every religion and cult in mankind's history.  And it is a pride issue, there is something in all of us that likes to hold our head up and say to ourselves that we have the exclusive truth, we are on a higher spiritual plane than others, it was tied to our efforts, etc. This is arrogance to think you know what's in the heart of man, any man. General statements cast about in hopes of snaring a few and proving yourself correct. You have no clue about the personal walk or motivations of anyone and you like to elevate yourself to a status above others.  And it is not just in religion.  It is a character flaw that most people carry with them in all their daily dealings.  Even in the workplace or driving down the road in heavy traffic. Don't vacillate. We are talking about prophecy not driving or workmanship. Your point was that any who disagree with pretrib are prideful and engaged in works. They like to think they are better than the guy next to them in one degree or another.  it is a flaw that can only be controlled by the power of the HS.  And it is a work in progress. Just not in your case. You made it clear in an earlier post you are beyond such fleshy temptation. Relating that is not pride? I suspect not.

 

Those actually support a doctrine of imminence, that it could happen at any time with no preconditions met. You miss the idea. Your earlier statement, in an attempt to bolster the pretrib position, was something like, "If we all saw the A of D then it could be determined when Jesus would return, in violation of scripture and in opposition to the doctrine of imminence." Logically this fails right off the bat. Great trib is not a specified time period. It is 'cut short' and ends before the culmination of the last week, so there could never be an accurate countdown to His return. The idea is that no matter what we see or do not see the 'day and hour' is known only to one, God. This means it's a moment in time kept secret until God decides and no person can discern that moment.   It also has strong allusion to what is typified in the Feast of Trumpets (Rosh Hashanah).  This Feast is called the "day that no man knows" simply because it cannot be determined when it starts since it falls on the first of Tishri and the first of the month cannot be determined until the new moon has been established, as according to the Mosaic Law.  And in tradition, this feast has references to the removal of the righteous, the wedding of the Messiah to His bride, and His coronation as King.  

The Jewish holidays have nothing to do with the end of the age as far as I can tell. The old ways are dead and all are one in Jesus, Jew and Gentile alike.

And the parable of the 10 virgins also supports an imminence position also.  

Imminence is a real concept. I'll grant you that. But if true, then the event is imminent no matter when it occurs as the 'precondition' qualifier is moot. Israel is a nation. Gospel preached in all nations, Matt 24:1-7, and many more.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  14
  • Topic Count:  66
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  6,599
  • Content Per Day:  2.00
  • Reputation:   2,355
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  03/17/2015
  • Status:  Offline

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I am Pretrib. I don't call the week "the trib" as many do: I call it the 70th week of Daniel. You already admitted that the 6th seal begins the Day of His wrath....are you going to back out of that now, or even worse, tell us that the 6th seal happens sometime around Jesus return as in Rev. 19? Either way would be wrong. His wrath WILL begin that the future 6th seal. And it will continue on through the whole week, which week is delineated by chapters 8 through 16.

Not true. Wrath begins at the 6th seal and the 7th trump as I have said many times. But wrath is only at the end as stated by Jesus in Matt 24 and only is borne out by the vials as stated in Rev. Check the visual from Matt 24 below.

OF COURSE Christians die every day, as God's people have over the centuries. But NONE OF THAT was God's wrath. It was and is PERSECUTION caused by God's people living in a fallen world. It will be nothing like God's wrath poured out to destroy this world and the sinners in the world. As Jesus said, there never was and never will be again days like the days of GT that He spoke of. You are sorely confused. Wrath and great tribulation are not the same. God's wrath is preceded by 'great tribulation' GT is prosecuted by the beast and will end when The Lamb appears and meetes out God's wrath on unrepentant and rebellious mankind. You even keep saying and I'm amazed that your ears do not hear what your lips have spoken, or eyes see what fingers typed, as it were.

Sorry to disappoint you, but it is not "pretrib" per se, but the scriptures that PROVE Satan's wrath and God's wrath come concurrently.

And if scriptures do prove that then post them. or you gonna cop out again? 

Why don't you just take revelation AS WRITTEN and form your theories from it as written? Neither John nor the Holy Spirit were trying to confuse people: it is written in the proper chronologically order - there is NO NEED to rearrange.

NOT strictly chronological. There is a chronology but it's not 1-22 successively. 

 

 

 

End of the Age.pdf

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  3
  • Topic Count:  23
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  8,272
  • Content Per Day:  2.10
  • Reputation:   688
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  06/09/2013
  • Status:  Offline

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Not true. Wrath begins at the 6th seal and the 7th trump as I have said many times. But wrath is only at the end as stated by Jesus in Matt 24 and only is borne out by the vials as stated in Rev. Check the visual from Matt 24 below.

OF COURSE Christians die every day, as God's people have over the centuries. But NONE OF THAT was God's wrath. It was and is PERSECUTION caused by God's people living in a fallen world. It will be nothing like God's wrath poured out to destroy this world and the sinners in the world. As Jesus said, there never was and never will be again days like the days of GT that He spoke of. You are sorely confused. Wrath and great tribulation are not the same. God's wrath is preceded by 'great tribulation' GT is prosecuted by the beast and will end when The Lamb appears and meetes out God's wrath on unrepentant and rebellious mankind. You even keep saying and I'm amazed that your ears do not hear what your lips have spoken, or eyes see what fingers typed, as it were.

Sorry to disappoint you, but it is not "pretrib" per se, but the scriptures that PROVE Satan's wrath and God's wrath come concurrently.

And if scriptures do prove that then post them. or you gonna cop out again? 

Why don't you just take revelation AS WRITTEN and form your theories from it as written? Neither John nor the Holy Spirit were trying to confuse people: it is written in the proper chronologically order - there is NO NEED to rearrange.

NOT strictly chronological. There is a chronology but it's not 1-22 successively. 

If you don't believe what is written, as it is written, there is little sense in trying to discuss it. OF COURSE wrath and great tribulation are not the same - and I never said they were. What I said is, they happen concurrently: while Satan's wrath is being carried out in the days of GT by the murder of millions of saints, God begins pouring out the vials of His wrath, to shorten those days.

John shows us that the days of great tribulation start only after the false prophet shows up. In Revelation the 70th week martyrs show up in heaven in chapter 15. How long will that be into the last 3 1/2 years? No one knows. Those days of great tribulation may not start - where people are forced to worship the image or lose their head - until months after the midpoint: the false prophet must show up, the image must be erected and the mark created first. But no mater when those days begin, God's wrath, which was started before the trumpets and was IN or during the trumpets, will still be going.  In other words, the trumpet judgments come with God's wrath.  So God will still have plenty of anger by the time people are forced to worship the image or lose their head. Neither do we know how long God will allow this to go on, before He begins pouring out the vials of His wrath.  the truth is, then, that from the time Satan is cast down and begins his warfare against the saints, both God's wrath and Satan's wrath will be felt on earth at the same time.  You can disagree all you want, you will still be in error. You think God's wrath does not come until HE comes - but this is not scripture. God begins the Day of His wrath just before the 70th week begins, and His wrath continues on through the entire week.  All anyone has to do is read it as written and they would know this.

Since it IS written as written, it is up to you to prove that it was written out of sequence.  Your theories are preposterous.  The 7 seals are sealing a document. To imagine the breaking of a seal would occur at the same time as some event deep into the document is error.  NOTHING can be read inside the document or come to pass UNTIL all 7 seals are opened.

Edited by iamlamad
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  3
  • Topic Count:  23
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  8,272
  • Content Per Day:  2.10
  • Reputation:   688
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  06/09/2013
  • Status:  Offline

58 minutes ago, inchrist said:

I beg to differ, the concept of housing estates called mansions in heaven stems from Gnostic teachings, the teachings can also be found in Persian mythology. It is a heretic idology because its a pagan concept.

Of course this is just more of your theories that cannot be backed by sound exegesis. It is clearly written that Jesus went to heaven to prepare abodes, houses, mansions for us, and will then come and get us and take us there. You can ignore this passage if you choose, but it is still there. In fact, MANY people have been to heaven an seen these mansions and returned to tell us about them. Again, you can ignore all these testimonies if you choose.

But then, since you don't expect to be in heaven during the 70th week, I guess you won't need a house there. The Bride of Christ will - and will certainly enjoy them during the 70th week.

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

The word mansion has changed over time, plain sense would dictate to go to its original usage and the context of Johns epistle.

If a builder makes sidewalks of gold, how would you imagine He would build houses?  "Mansions" was good enough for the KJV translators, so I will just go with them.

 

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

I maintain my stance your postion is heretic. 

Only in your mind, and only because you cannot believe the scriptures as written. Pretrib is the truth; there is simply no way it is heretic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  3
  • Topic Count:  23
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  8,272
  • Content Per Day:  2.10
  • Reputation:   688
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  06/09/2013
  • Status:  Offline

14 hours ago, OldCoot said:

The only problem in using the Rich Man and Lazarus story to support a position that is antithetical to what Paul wrote is that the story was based on a pre-resurrection of the Messiah presentation.   After the resurrection, those that die who are believers are then with the Lord per Paul. The prior concept of dying and then going to Abraham's bosom to wait no longer is a factor after the resurrection of the Messiah.  For those that reject Messiah, there is Hades.  For those that place their trust in Messiah, they are with Him after death.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (LITV) Because of this, He says, "Having gone up on high, He led captivity captive," and gave "gifts to men." (Psalm 68:18) 9 But that He went up, what is it except that He also first came down into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that came down is the same who also went up above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.

Absolutely true, but the point is made, AFTER physical death, people still have full control of these areas of seeing, hearing, speaking etc.

I might add, when the disciples saw Jesus walking on the water, they thought they were seeing a SPIRIT, not a soul! We ARE a spirit being, because God is a spirit being and we are made in His likeness. We possess a soul, which is our mind, intellect, will, emotions, ETC, because GOD has a soul with these same attributes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  3
  • Topic Count:  23
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  8,272
  • Content Per Day:  2.10
  • Reputation:   688
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  06/09/2013
  • Status:  Offline

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

More tedious, manipulative rhetoric. I will never be swayed by loaded questions or red herrings. Post the scriptures in full context and stand behind them instead of the cop out.

I get it: you cannot answer the question intelligently, so you "cop out." It is not "retoric:" Paul tells us the rapture will come when people are saying "peace and safety." I think that term fits days like today better that days after the 70th week has wiped out most of earth's population.  I also know the church must already be in heaven for the marriage and supper/

 

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

There can be dozens of gatherings if that's what God decides, that's not the issue.

OF COURSE it is the issue: God caused Matthew to write about a gathering, and you jump on it and declare to all that it MUST BE Paul's rapture. Pretribbers look at all the evidence, such as WHERE this gathering gathers from, WHEN it takes place, and determine it cannot be Paul's rapture. It is therefore a DIFFERENT gathering. If you wish to imagine that Paul's rapture will gather from the fartherest reaches of heaven to the furthest reaches of earth, go right ahead on! However, we know that Paul's gathering will gather from under the earth first, and then on the earth.  And we know from 1st and 2nd Thes, and Revelation, that Paul's gathering will come before the 70th week begins.

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

If this gathering of no doubt millions of people is conspicuous, then why no similar mention of a gathering that would include 100's of millions from all around the world, throwing the world into chaos as depicted by Left Behind?  

It is up to God how many times He wishes to cover an event with scripture. He did say that He would gather all of Israel BACK to Israel in other passages: I chose to believe this gathering is for that purpose.

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Since Revelation is NOT strictly chronological but more of the chronological/concurrent type of outline

This is only your opinion - I might add an opinion that cannot be proven - I choose not to believe it. Revelation makes prefect sense as written. I don't think God gave us authority to rearrange it to fit some theory.

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Chapter 13 does not necessarily follow Chapter 12 in the timeline.

Most definitely it does: God chose to introduce John to the dragon first (chapter 12) because it will be the dragon behind the Beast and false prophet in proceeding chapters. When Satan in great anger goes after the "remnant" (the main load went out at the pretrib rapture) he will use the Beast and False prophet to accomplish this, as seen in chapter 13, and as carried out in chapters 13 - 19.

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

But to answer your question, I don't necessarily see 'peace and safety' in Rev at all. My current understanding of this is; the world cries for peace and safety, reported on the news almost daily, especially when there's a terrorist attack, and this is the cry before the destruction as it leads to throwing in with the first entity that will sate this need. It's also about Israel as their cry for peace and safety has been going on since 1948. But there has been a more global outcry of late since the rise of ISIS.

Not sure what point your making.

If we read Paul, " For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them," it seems most likely that they are THINKING peace and safety and imagining that they are living in peace and safety.  It is the opposite of "sudden destruction."

The point then is, the rapture will come when people are feeling safe and at peace. That fits pretrib FAR better than posttrib.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  3
  • Topic Count:  23
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  8,272
  • Content Per Day:  2.10
  • Reputation:   688
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  06/09/2013
  • Status:  Offline

14 hours ago, inchrist said:

Rich man and lazarus is the ressurection.

Might want to consult the other Lazarus who mentions no such thing of a soulish area.

There is a vast difference between being dead and being resurrected. Maybe you should consult what this story really says.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  3
  • Topic Count:  23
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  8,272
  • Content Per Day:  2.10
  • Reputation:   688
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  06/09/2013
  • Status:  Offline

39 minutes ago, inchrist said:

People also believe they have been abducted by aliens....should we believe them also?

 

 

Ok please walk me through matthew 25 

The Parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins

25 “Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish.Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.

“And at midnight a cry was heard: ‘Behold, the bridegroom is coming;[a] go out to meet him!’ Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ But the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.

11 “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ 12 But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’

13 “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour[b] in which the Son of Man is coming.

The groom is coming, a voice shouts out. Then the brides groom comes....now where do they go? 

Try Rev. 19. There is a wedding and after, a supper.  And Jesus will return to earth AFTER the supper.

And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
Edited by iamlamad
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  3
  • Topic Count:  23
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  8,272
  • Content Per Day:  2.10
  • Reputation:   688
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  06/09/2013
  • Status:  Offline

3 hours ago, inchrist said:

I didnt ask for a definition between dead and resurrection

Can you explain why Lazarus who was dead and then resurrected makes no mention of a soul area when he was resurrected? 

 

No need to: the spirit and soul are tied very tightly together, because ONLY the word of God can divide between. When anyone has been risen from the dead back into their old body, their soul is intact with the spirit.  It is the SPIRIT that is the real person. It is the soul with all the memories and experiences that make one spirit different from another. When we look at another human, we are only seeing the temporary house they are living in.

Edited by iamlamad
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...