Jump to content
IGNORED

Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position


George

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  3
  • Topic Count:  23
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  8,272
  • Content Per Day:  2.10
  • Reputation:   688
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  06/09/2013
  • Status:  Offline

On 8/5/2017 at 6:36 PM, Diaste said:

The Spirit calls us all to what fits us, according to His purpose. I'm a defender. This is the most important moment of all time. The end of the age is almost here. Jesus is soon to reappear, but first, the beast. The church is blind to this for the most part. They need to hear.

As I said, I doubt if you are watching for His coming. How could you when you believe something else must come first?

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  3
  • Topic Count:  23
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  8,272
  • Content Per Day:  2.10
  • Reputation:   688
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  06/09/2013
  • Status:  Offline

On 8/5/2017 at 6:56 AM, Diaste said:

And if they are happening concurrently whats the difference? How is it that Satan's wrath and God's wrath occur simultaneously? If God's wrath is occurring simultaneously with Satan's then there are believers on the earth and scripture forbids this; no believer is on earth during the wrath of God. 

Of course scripture does not forbid this, for it is truth and will certainly happen. Scripture forbids that HIS BRIDE be here. And the truth is, the Bride will be caught up pretrib. Of course you don't believe this, but it will happen anyway.  Your disbelief will not stop it - but it may well prevent you from being one of those caught up.

You seem to have problems with the timing of events in Revelation. And rightly so, for you will not leave them as John wrote them. If you leave John's chronology as written, when Satan's killing machine is at its peak, God begins pouring out the vials to SHORTEN those days. So Satan's anger and God's wrath will be concurrent.

On 8/5/2017 at 6:56 AM, Diaste said:

 

On 7/30/2017 at 2:22 PM, iamlamad said:

It will be nothing like God's wrath poured out to destroy this world and the sinners in the world. As Jesus said, there never was and never will be again days like the days of GT that He spoke of.

The above quote by you likens wrath with GT. You have equated wrath with "there never was and never will be" days which is GT.

It is simple: while Satan's killing machine, using the Beast and False prophet and their armies, is at its peak, God will begin pouring out the vials of his wrath to SHORTEN those days. So while the Beast is murdering, God's wrath is poured out.

Not only that, but when the 6th trumpet kills 1/3 of earths population, it is God's wrath. When the 7th trumpet brings on woe 3, it is God's wrath.  Make no mistake, the days of GT will be CAUSED by the Beast and False Prophet forcing all to worship an idol and take a mark, but AT THE SAME TIME, the two prophets stop the rain, and God turns all fresh water into blood -so NO WATER TO DRINK - for the saints or for the sinners. All will suffer under both Satan's wrath and God's wrath. When God turns up the heat, all will suffer: saint and sinner alike. It will be a terrible time to be alive on earth.  But it is God's plan that all that are His pray to be counted worthy to escape. Will it be God's fault if many simply refuse to believe in this escape plan God has?

On 8/5/2017 at 6:56 AM, Diaste said:

John shows us that the days of great tribulation start only after the false prophet shows up. In Revelation the 70th week martyrs show up in heaven in chapter 15.

Rev 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:" This is the dead believers, already in heaven by the 6th chapter, Meaning that the 5th seal (the dead from GT) occurs prior to the 7th trump

How could ANYONE mix up this awesome book so completely! You have no concept of John's or the Holy Spirit's timing:

Get this straight once and for ever: John does not even start the 70th week until the 7th seal. So all you read before the 7th seal will be CHURCH AGE. The martyrs at the 5th seal are CHURCH AGE martyrs.  You are correct in one point: the martyrs of the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of WILL INDEED show up in chapter 15. Why? Because those days of GT will BEGIN shortly after the warning God gives in chapter 14 not to take the mark.

On 8/5/2017 at 6:56 AM, Diaste said:

meaning the 6th seal and 7th trump occur in conjunction.

Complete MYTH, caused because you have no understanding of John's chronology. Worse, you imagine you must rearrange. Just know, ANY theory that must rearrange will be proven wrong.

 

On 8/5/2017 at 6:56 AM, Diaste said:

Back on Fantasy Island? In Matt 24 Jesus said, 

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

We don't know how much time is in God's "THEN." If you will notice, God does not give His warning not to take the mark until chapter 14. Believe it or not, there is TIME involved from the revealing of the Beast to chapter 14. As I said, we don't know how much time, because John does not say.

What we DO know, is that it is the false prophet that causes terrible things to happen. And He does NOT show up at the same time the Beast is revealed.  He will show up later. Again, we don't know how much later.

On 8/5/2017 at 6:56 AM, Diaste said:

instead of just making it up as you go along.

Sorry, I don't make things up: you are much closer to that. Yes, OF COURSE Jesus told them to run. Did you just overlook chapter 12 when SATAN, the DRAGON goes after the woman? This is before the mark or image is created. Yes, they must run for their life, but NOT BECAUSE of worshiping an image, which will come later. Really, you MUST keep Revelation in the order it is written!

On 8/5/2017 at 6:56 AM, Diaste said:

We are told we don't have even a matter of hours to flee when the A of D occurs; GT begins right then.

I disagree. What CAUSES the days of GT that will be greater than any time before? Someone fleeing and someone chasing? No, that has happened many times in history. The days of GT will be greater than any other time, because Satan gives the Beast authority over the entire planet and all on the planet will be forced to choose between the mark and image, or losing their head. It is the SCOPE of this that will make it greater than any other.

Did you ever read of the siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD? Or even farther back in history when people were eating their own children because they were starving. That was indeed, GT, but nothing like the scope of what is coming, which will be worldwide.  The great PRESSURE (tribulation) will be extreme thirst, hunger, and the decision when you are caught: take the mark or lose your head.  And these events WILL NOT HAPPEN until after the False Prophet shows up.

On 8/5/2017 at 6:56 AM, Diaste said:

To point out your error again, believers cannot be on earth during the wrath of God. This is the foundation of Pretrib. Yet your statement places believer in the wrath of God for seven full years. You will cite 

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

One thing you don't get: God will certainly NOT set any appointments for His own - but many believer will set their OWN because they will not believe in pretrib.  In effect, they are setting their OWN. Did you not write that the A of D would come first? You are setting your OWN appointment.  It is the departing that will come first.

On 8/5/2017 at 6:56 AM, Diaste said:

into wrath which no believer will endure,

If no believer can endure, then no unbeliever can endure. But perhaps you mean, coming out alive. Indeed, God SAID that believers would be overcome. Now stop and think: you imagine believers will not be here, yet John disagrees with your theory. Believers WILL BE HERE and will be overcome.

On 8/5/2017 at 6:56 AM, Diaste said:

Revelation is not written out of sequence, it's in perfect order, an order you cannot discern.

I cannot go on: you are so far from knowing John's chronology all I can say is, wait and see: you will find ANYONE who says some trumpet happens at some seal, or some vial happens at some seal, their theory WILL BE proven wrong.

The truth is , NO VIAL will be poured out until all 7 trumpets have sounded, and NO TRUMPET will sound until all 7 seals are opened. Any other theory WILL BE proven wrong.

Edited by iamlamad
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  14
  • Topic Count:  66
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  6,599
  • Content Per Day:  2.00
  • Reputation:   2,355
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  03/17/2015
  • Status:  Offline

On 8/6/2017 at 7:13 PM, iamlamad said:

You are already wrong in your first sentence. WHO SAID only one gathering is described? You? Sorry, I will take Matthew, Paul, and John over your theories.

You are correct, Paul DOES give us the timing. The problem is, you did not understand Paul.

"for that day will not come"  What day? The Day of the Lord that they imagined had already begun. 

"until the 'apostasia' or departure occurs" Several of the first translations uses the word "departing"   Paul is telling us that   ..............the departing (gathering) must come first - the very thing He tells us in his first letter.

" This means the Gathering Paul spoke of will not happen until after the A of D"  No, it only means you don't understand the intent of the Author.

Of course, if you don't know when God's wrath begins, how are you expected to know when the rapture is? They are all connected and if one is in error on one point, they will be in error on many points. The truth is, pretrib has it right, and Jesus can come at ANY MOMENT to gather those that are His. I, for one, am watching for His coming. I doubt if you are.

Paul said so, and more than once. The only gathering extant is linked to the revealing of Jesus from heaven. Jesus says as much in Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. All three heard Jesus link our redemption to the day of His return. Again, if this gathering is specified and conspicuous, why then is the pretrib notion of a worldwide gathering of 100's of millions not just as specific and conspicuous? Because it does not exist. Apostasia  is a defection, a departing from a previous stand, It's not physical movement. It's leaving a belief system in favor of another. A defection from truth to lies, from God to the world. There is no physical departure.

And of course your logic is suspect. How can the day come after that which is said to to occur on that day? You're saying the gathering occurs some years prior to the gathering that is depicted in 2 Thess. In effect you are saying, "The gathering will not occur until after the gathering." Impossible and illogical.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  3
  • Topic Count:  23
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  8,272
  • Content Per Day:  2.10
  • Reputation:   688
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  06/09/2013
  • Status:  Offline

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

Paul said so, and more than once. The only gathering extant is linked to the revealing of Jesus from heaven. Jesus says as much in Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. All three heard Jesus link our redemption to the day of His return. Again, if this gathering is specified and conspicuous, why then is the pretrib notion of a worldwide gathering of 100's of millions not just as specific and conspicuous? Because it does not exist. Apostasia  is a defection, a departing from a previous stand, It's not physical movement. It's leaving a belief system in favor of another. A defection from truth to lies, from God to the world. There is no physical departure.

And of course your logic is suspect. How can the day come after that which is said to to occur on that day? You're saying the gathering occurs some years prior to the gathering that is depicted in 2 Thess. In effect you are saying, "The gathering will not occur until after the gathering." Impossible and illogical.

Readers beware! This false logic has been around for a long time. It is the DAY OF THE LORD (not the gathering) that Paul is talking about. His argument is, once one sees the man of sin revealed, they will KNOW that the Day of the Lord has started and they are then IN IT. But, Paul added one thing: the man of sin cannot be revealed until the departing takes place: the very gathering that Paul put as the THEME of this passage.

Of course, if people falsely imagine that the "Day of the Lord" is synonymous with the rapture, they might buy into this false argument.  Always remember, the "Day of the Lord" is a DARK day, where God comes to destroy this world and the sinners in the world. It is also "the day of His wrath" so the rapture will certainly take place before this day of His wrath.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  4
  • Topic Count:  13
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  1,192
  • Content Per Day:  0.48
  • Reputation:   429
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  06/29/2017
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  01/12/1957

16 hours ago, Diaste said:

Paul said so, and more than once. The only gathering extant is linked to the revealing of Jesus from heaven. Jesus says as much in Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. All three heard Jesus link our redemption to the day of His return. Again, if this gathering is specified and conspicuous, why then is the pretrib notion of a worldwide gathering of 100's of millions not just as specific and conspicuous? Because it does not exist. Apostasia  is a defection, a departing from a previous stand, It's not physical movement. It's leaving a belief system in favor of another. A defection from truth to lies, from God to the world. There is no physical departure.

And of course your logic is suspect. How can the day come after that which is said to to occur on that day? You're saying the gathering occurs some years prior to the gathering that is depicted in 2 Thess. In effect you are saying, "The gathering will not occur until after the gathering." Impossible and illogical.

Only twice in the NT is Apostasia used.  In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 and Acts 21:21.  For Apostasia to mean a "falling away", there has to be a definite article that supports that assumption.  In the Acts 21:21 account, what is referenced is a departure from Moses or Torah (the Law). So in that case, you would be correct that it is a defection or departing from a previous stand, as the previous stand is mentioned in the text to support what is being departed from.   

In the 2 Thessalonians account, there is no reference to what is being departed from.  In that case, the word stands on its own as simply departure. Kenneth Wuest expounded upon this in his multi volume work on the Greek NT and said the same thing, though more eloquently than I have.  There are many other scholars that support Kenneth Wuest's view on the word and textual application.   So for one to hold that a physical departure is in view in the 2 Thessalonians 2:3 text is not out of line.  It may not jive with some folk's presuppositions, but that is a personal opinion.  It is disingenuous to impose a personal view on the text rather than letting the text stand on its own.

And given the text simply says a departure must occur before the Man of Sin, or false Messiah, is revealed, it is not taking liberties with the text to imply that a departure or removal of the righteous before the revealing is in view.  Later on in v6, the implication is that the HS is the one restraining.  The HS indwells the believers.  Once the believers are delivered to the Messiah, which is one of the HS jobs, He then sidesteps and allows the revealing and all hell to break loose.

A casual reading of 1 Thessalonians amplifies this position.  Coming as a thief in the night can only occur if no one is expecting the thief.  Just about any time during the 70th week of Daniel, the False Messiah will be setting the stage for a conflict with the coming Messiah.  Armies are drawn together to repel the coming of the Messiah.  No one is caught off guard as like a surprise from a thief in the night.  All will be expecting Him (albeit in a negative way) and all eyes will see Him.  This comports well with Psalm 2 and many other passages in scripture.  Literally, the False Messiah is going to have people gather and bring arms to fight against the Messiah.  But as the scripture says, God will laugh.  I will to.  

Thus, it is reasonable to hold a position that there is the coming to gather His own early on, then a later full coming and actually coming to the land to conquer and reign on the earth.  The thief in the night reference does not even remotely suggest that the Lord is going to touch down on the earth like the full coming to conquer and to reign.

Likewise, a early removal of the righteous, along with a resurrection of the dead in Christ comports with Isaiah 26 and Psalm 27. Always keep in mind that all the Bereans had to check out Paul to see what he said was true, was the OT scriptures.  And they were commended for doing that.  It can be very beneficial to compare any concept that Paul mentions in his letters to what the OT has to say on the issue.

Edited by OldCoot
Darn spell checker!
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  14
  • Topic Count:  66
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  6,599
  • Content Per Day:  2.00
  • Reputation:   2,355
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  03/17/2015
  • Status:  Offline

On 8/8/2017 at 4:36 PM, iamlamad said:

Readers beware! This false logic has been around for a long time. It is the DAY OF THE LORD (not the gathering) that Paul is talking about. His argument is, once one sees the man of sin revealed, they will KNOW that the Day of the Lord has started and they are then IN IT. But, Paul added one thing: the man of sin cannot be revealed until the departing takes place: the very gathering that Paul put as the THEME of this passage.

Of course, if people falsely imagine that the "Day of the Lord" is synonymous with the rapture, they might buy into this false argument.  Always remember, the "Day of the Lord" is a DARK day, where God comes to destroy this world and the sinners in the world. It is also "the day of His wrath" so the rapture will certainly take place before this day of His wrath.

Yes. Readers be aware of the following scriptures of proof linking the Day of the Lord with the gathering of the elect, refuting a pretrib gathering.

Matt 24

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect

Mark 13

26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

Luke 21

27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Three people that walked with Jesus report the truth of the matter. The gathering and the Day of the Lord are linked in time and space. Since this gathering is covered in detail concerning who, what and when, this is the gathering we are looking for and it occurs immediately after the the Lord is revealed and just before the wrath of God begins. Matthew and Mark are quite clear about this, only when the Lord appears in the clouds will the angels be sent to gather the elect so they do not remain on earth during wrath. Luke is as concise but even more to the point; our redemption occurs when the Son of Man comes in a cloud with power and great glory, and not before. I guess pretrib isn't concerned with redemption or being named among the elect as they all want out early and so miss out on being redeemed and being the favorites.

Now Paul continues in this with;

2 Thess 2:1

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him

Linked, immutably and eternally. This is the theme of the chapter; The 2nd coming and the gathering. Paul is concerned with both at the same time as were the Thessalonians. Why? Because they understood the link. They knew the gathering would only occur when the Lord returned. It's a ludicrous thing to believe the church would be looking for the day of the Lord if it only meant wrath. The day of the Lord is redemption for the church and wrath for the unbelieving world.

The NIV renders this verse correctly.

for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed,

Even the KJV is clear.

for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed

This is a defection, a rebellion, a revolt. Behold;

apostasia: defection, revolt

Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Short Definition: defection, apostasy
Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.

Even the root word from which apostasia is derived implies desertion, to wit;

575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); 

apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

Applied illogic only turns desertion into leaving the earth and going to heaven. This falling away is a mass revolt, deserting the Lord God for fleshy desires. Nothing more. But the scriptures of proof, the Greek and it's definitions, will not turn the hardhearted, those with inherent immunity to the truth, agenda driven wolves masquerading as sheep.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  14
  • Topic Count:  66
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  6,599
  • Content Per Day:  2.00
  • Reputation:   2,355
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  03/17/2015
  • Status:  Offline

21 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Only twice in the NT is Apostasia used.  In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 and Acts 21:21.  For Apostasia to mean a "falling away", there has to be a definite article that supports that assumption.  In the Acts 21:21 account, what is referenced is a departure from Moses or Torah (the Law). So in that case, you would be correct I am not correct, scripture is. that it is a defection or departing from a previous stand,  The text uses apostasia, you are confusing definitions of root terms and the term used in the text, see below. Even if you were parsing correctly, none of the roots or the derived terms connote a departing from one PLACE to another PLACE, again see below. as the previous stand is mentioned in the text to support what is being departed from.   

In the 2 Thessalonians account, there is no reference to what is being departed from.  In that case, the word stands on its own as simply departure. Kenneth Wuest expounded upon this in his multi volume work on the Greek NT and said the same thing, though more eloquently than I have.  There are many other scholars that support Kenneth Wuest's view on the word and textual application.   So for one to hold that a physical departure is in view in the 2 Thessalonians 2:3 text is not out of line.  It may not jive with some folk's presuppositions, but that is a personal opinion.  It is disingenuous to impose a personal view on the text rather than letting the text stand on its own. .I agree why then do you believe the commentators personal view? I don't care if the guys wrote a thousand books and 10,000 agreed, it doesn't compare to the words of Jesus and those who followed Him.

And given the text simply says a departure must occur before the Man of Sin, or false Messiah, is revealed, it is not taking liberties with the text to imply that a departure or removal of the righteous before the revealing is in view.  Later on in v6, the implication is that the HS is the one restraining.  The HS indwells the believers.  Once the believers are delivered to the Messiah, which is one of the HS jobs, He then sidesteps and allows the revealing and all hell to break loose. You should get a bible and a concordance and do the work yourself. You'll find a great many treasures. The above is not true and a short study will reveal this.

A casual reading of 1 Thessalonians amplifies this position.  Coming as a thief in the night can only occur if no one is expecting the thief. .Again incorrect. Only the unbelieving will experience the day coming as a thief. The elect will not. 1 Thessalonians 5:4, "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief." Only those in darkness will be overcome by the day like a thief in the night.

 Just about any time during the 70th week of Daniel, the False Messiah will be setting the stage for a conflict with the coming Messiah.  Armies are drawn together to repel the coming of the Messiah.  No one is caught off guard as like a surprise from a thief in the night.  All will be expecting Him (albeit in a negative way) and all eyes will see Him.  This comports well with Psalm 2 and many other passages in scripture.  Literally, the False Messiah is going to have people gather and bring arms to fight against the Messiah.  But as the scripture says, God will laugh.  I will to.  

Thus, it is reasonable to hold a position that there is the coming to gather His own early on, then a later full coming and actually coming to the land to conquer and reign on the earth.  The thief in the night reference does not even remotely suggest that the Lord is going to touch down on the earth like the full coming to conquer and to reign. It's only reasonable for a work of fiction. No scripture speaks to a gathering before the wrath of God. Tribulation is not wrath. The only gathering of the elect occurs between trib and wrath.

Likewise, a early removal of the righteous,. Except the words of Jesus in Matt, Mark and Luke refute any other gathering. along with a resurrection of the dead in Christ comports with Isaiah 26 speaks to being hid from wrath, not tribulation. 

and Psalm 27 is likely speaking to the same though I have done no study on this as yet. Always keep in mind that all the Bereans had to check out Paul to see what he said was true, was the OT scriptures.  And they were commended for doing that.  It can be very beneficial to compare any concept that Paul mentions in his letters to what the OT has to say on the issue.

All due to misinterpretation of the Greek. Wait. That's not right. Apologies. Agenda driven interpretation. Close but, not quite. Fear based manipulation of the definition. Ah, much better.

Look at the definition of the root terms, definite articles be dammed.

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

Nothing suggests leaving a location to go to another location. The root terms imply desertion and literally mean a change of mind, not a change of place. This is ideological in nature. But we are not looking at aphistemi. Paul chose a much stronger term, apostasia. 

apostasia: defection, revolt

Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Short Definition: defection, apostasy

Your reliance on the manipulation of commentators without doing the actual study is sad considering you seem to be intelligent. Take a good look at aphistemi;

aphistémi: to lead away, to depart from

Original Word: ἀφίστημι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: aphistémi
Phonetic Spelling: (af-is'-tay-mee)
Short Definition: I lead away, seduce, depart, abstain from
Definition: I make to stand away, draw away, repel, take up a position away from, withdraw from, leave, abstain from.

This is in no way a departure from one place to another, but it is a seductive leading astray, exactly the seduction pretrib dangles before the masses.

2 Thess 2:3,  "....hoti ean me erchomai apostasia proton..."

is literally "...because except come defection before..." 

Let's contrast the above with a term that means what the commentators contend.

 

erchomai: to come, go

Original Word: ἔρχομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: erchomai
Phonetic Spelling: (er'-khom-ahee)
Short Definition: I come, go
Definition: I come, go.

I. to come;

1. properly,

a. of persons; α. universally, to come from one place into another, and used both of persons arriving — as in Matthew 8:9; Matthew 22:3; Luke 7:8; Luke 14:17 (here WH marginal reading read the infinitive, see their Introductory § 404), 20; John 5:7; Acts 10:29; Revelation 22:7, and very often; οἱ ἐρχόμενοι καί οἱ ὑπάγοντες, Mark 6:31; — and of those returning

The commentators are incorrect and scripture, The Word of God, stands triumphant.

 

 

Edited by Diaste
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  14
  • Topic Count:  66
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  6,599
  • Content Per Day:  2.00
  • Reputation:   2,355
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  03/17/2015
  • Status:  Offline

On 8/6/2017 at 8:16 PM, iamlamad said:

Of course scripture does not forbid this, for it is truth and will certainly happen. Scripture forbids that HIS BRIDE be here. And the truth is, the Bride will be caught up pretrib. Of course you don't believe this, but it will happen anyway.  Your disbelief will not stop it - but it may well prevent you from being one of those caught up.

You seem to have problems with the timing of events in Revelation. And rightly so, for you will not leave them as John wrote them. If you leave John's chronology as written, when Satan's killing machine is at its peak, God begins pouring out the vials to SHORTEN those days. So Satan's anger and God's wrath will be concurrent.

It is simple: while Satan's killing machine, using the Beast and False prophet and their armies, is at its peak, God will begin pouring out the vials of his wrath to SHORTEN those days. So while the Beast is murdering, God's wrath is poured out.

Not only that, but when the 6th trumpet kills 1/3 of earths population, it is God's wrath. When the 7th trumpet brings on woe 3, it is God's wrath.  Make no mistake, the days of GT will be CAUSED by the Beast and False Prophet forcing all to worship an idol and take a mark, but AT THE SAME TIME, the two prophets stop the rain, and God turns all fresh water into blood -so NO WATER TO DRINK - for the saints or for the sinners. All will suffer under both Satan's wrath and God's wrath. When God turns up the heat, all will suffer: saint and sinner alike. It will be a terrible time to be alive on earth.  But it is God's plan that all that are His pray to be counted worthy to escape. Will it be God's fault if many simply refuse to believe in this escape plan God has?

How could ANYONE mix up this awesome book so completely! You have no concept of John's or the Holy Spirit's timing:

Get this straight once and for ever: John does not even start the 70th week until the 7th seal. So all you read before the 7th seal will be CHURCH AGE. The martyrs at the 5th seal are CHURCH AGE martyrs.  You are correct in one point: the martyrs of the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of WILL INDEED show up in chapter 15. Why? Because those days of GT will BEGIN shortly after the warning God gives in chapter 14 not to take the mark.

Complete MYTH, caused because you have no understanding of John's chronology. Worse, you imagine you must rearrange. Just know, ANY theory that must rearrange will be proven wrong.

 

We don't know how much time is in God's "THEN." If you will notice, God does not give His warning not to take the mark until chapter 14. Believe it or not, there is TIME involved from the revealing of the Beast to chapter 14. As I said, we don't know how much time, because John does not say.

What we DO know, is that it is the false prophet that causes terrible things to happen. And He does NOT show up at the same time the Beast is revealed.  He will show up later. Again, we don't know how much later.

Sorry, I don't make things up: you are much closer to that. Yes, OF COURSE Jesus told them to run. Did you just overlook chapter 12 when SATAN, the DRAGON goes after the woman? This is before the mark or image is created. Yes, they must run for their life, but NOT BECAUSE of worshiping an image, which will come later. Really, you MUST keep Revelation in the order it is written!

I disagree. What CAUSES the days of GT that will be greater than any time before? Someone fleeing and someone chasing? No, that has happened many times in history. The days of GT will be greater than any other time, because Satan gives the Beast authority over the entire planet and all on the planet will be forced to choose between the mark and image, or losing their head. It is the SCOPE of this that will make it greater than any other.

Did you ever read of the siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD? Or even farther back in history when people were eating their own children because they were starving. That was indeed, GT, but nothing like the scope of what is coming, which will be worldwide.  The great PRESSURE (tribulation) will be extreme thirst, hunger, and the decision when you are caught: take the mark or lose your head.  And these events WILL NOT HAPPEN until after the False Prophet shows up.

One thing you don't get: God will certainly NOT set any appointments for His own - but many believer will set their OWN because they will not believe in pretrib.  In effect, they are setting their OWN. Did you not write that the A of D would come first? You are setting your OWN appointment.  It is the departing that will come first.

If no believer can endure, then no unbeliever can endure. But perhaps you mean, coming out alive. Indeed, God SAID that believers would be overcome. Now stop and think: you imagine believers will not be here, yet John disagrees with your theory. Believers WILL BE HERE and will be overcome.

I cannot go on: you are so far from knowing John's chronology all I can say is, wait and see: you will find ANYONE who says some trumpet happens at some seal, or some vial happens at some seal, their theory WILL BE proven wrong.

The truth is , NO VIAL will be poured out until all 7 trumpets have sounded, and NO TRUMPET will sound until all 7 seals are opened. Any other theory WILL BE proven wrong.

And ignoring the reality of Jesus' words again....

Beginning of Sorrows,

Great tribulation. The anger of the beast.

The 2nd coming. 

The Gathering.

Wrath. The anger of God

In that order and none other.

Jesus said it. Not me. Matt 24. Try reading it.

  • This is Worthy 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  4
  • Topic Count:  13
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  1,192
  • Content Per Day:  0.48
  • Reputation:   429
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  06/29/2017
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  01/12/1957

48 minutes ago, Diaste said:

All due to misinterpretation of the Greek. Wait. That's not right. Apologies. Agenda driven interpretation. Close but, not quite. Fear based manipulation of the definition. Ah, much better.

Look at the definition of the root terms, definite articles be dammed.

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

Nothing suggests leaving a location to go to another location. The root terms imply desertion and literally mean a change of mind, not a change of place. This is ideological in nature. But we are not looking at aphistemi. Paul chose a much stronger term, apostasia. 

apostasia: defection, revolt

Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Short Definition: defection, apostasy

Your reliance on the manipulation of commentators without doing the actual study is sad considering you seem to be intelligent. Take a good look at aphistemi;

aphistémi: to lead away, to depart from

Original Word: ἀφίστημι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: aphistémi
Phonetic Spelling: (af-is'-tay-mee)
Short Definition: I lead away, seduce, depart, abstain from
Definition: I make to stand away, draw away, repel, take up a position away from, withdraw from, leave, abstain from.

This is in no way a departure from one place to another, but it is a seductive leading astray, exactly the seduction pretrib dangles before the masses.

2 Thess 2:3,  "....hoti ean me erchomai apostasia proton..."

is literally "...because except come defection before..." 

Let's contrast the above with a term that means what the commentators contend.

 

erchomai: to come, go

Original Word: ἔρχομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: erchomai
Phonetic Spelling: (er'-khom-ahee)
Short Definition: I come, go
Definition: I come, go.

I. to come;

1. properly,

a. of persons; α. universally, to come from one place into another, and used both of persons arriving — as in Matthew 8:9; Matthew 22:3; Luke 7:8; Luke 14:17 (here WH marginal reading read the infinitive, see their Introductory § 404), 20; John 5:7; Acts 10:29; Revelation 22:7, and very often; οἱ ἐρχόμενοι καί οἱ ὑπάγοντες, Mark 6:31; — and of those returning

The commentators are incorrect and scripture, The Word of God, stands triumphant.

 

 

With all deference to Strong's or Young's or whoever you are posting numbers and definitions from, there are many Greek scholars who hold to what I stated on Apostasia.  You don't accept that, that's cool.  I am not concerned if what I stated you don't accept.  I am aware of many scholars standing in academic circles that do hold to what I stated.  Not sure I am aware of your standing as one who is in the same arena as they are, so I have no basis to know if you are as learned in the Greek nuances as they are, I don't accept your position.  So I guess we have a stalemate.  

The word of God does indeed stand triumphant.  But that doesn't mean your interpretation does.  Try and keep in mind, you are not the author of the text.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  4
  • Topic Count:  13
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  1,192
  • Content Per Day:  0.48
  • Reputation:   429
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  06/29/2017
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  01/12/1957

Did a little research.  Always a wise thing to do when discussing a particular point.

Until the KJV Bible came out, most major translations used departure for apostasia.  it was not until the KJV came on the scene did anyone consider that apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 meant falling away.  With all deference to James Strong, Robert Young, et al who based much of their work on the KJV writers assertions of the meanings. 

Tyndale Bible (cir 1526/1534) "a departynge fyrst"

Coverdale Bible (Cir 1539) "a departynge come firft"

Cranmer Bible (1539) "a departynge fyrst"

Geneva Bible (1557 / 1608) "a departing first"

And many others:  The Wycliff Bible (1384), The Breches Bible (1576), The Beza Bible (1583)

The Latin Vulgate uses the word discessio, which also has departure in view.  Considering the LV came on the scene roughly the 4th century, one would think they might have had a pretty firm grasp on the Greek NT and Greek word meanings and their application, being that the LV writers were 1000 years earlier than our english translations.

Notice how they are all before Darby, whom many attribute the founder of the pre-trib position.  Even though Isaac Newton a century before held the view.  As did several of the writings of 2nd/3rd century.  It would seem that "departure" was not the wishful thinking of a bunch of pre-trib nuts.   So it just might be the Greek Scholar Kenneth Wuest who I mentioned in an earlier post might actually be more on target than not.  

Based on this, the evidence would suggest that "falling away" is a relatively recent invention of the proper meaning of apostasia.  

 

Edited by OldCoot
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...