Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[BobRyan]

true we can be derailed by having the actual warning and heads-up ... like the Disciples when they wanted to exclude the children or the syrophoenecian woman.

 

Still it was very handy to know enough to "get in the boat" and to know enough to "accept the Carpenter as being the Son of God"

[Diaste]

On 9/15/2017 at 9:36 AM, OldCoot said:

 

I would contend that the wrath starts right out of the gate at the 1st seal.  The Father hands off the scroll to Yeshua.  He then opens the seals.  Simple logic would say that if He hadn't opened the seals, then the events of each seal would not occur.  Therefore, the events directly related to Yeshua's actions, and would imply that it is part of the wrath of God.  Judgement and wrath do not require an affirmative action by God. It can come from God removing His restraint and allowing events to transpire. 

If the earlier translators got it right about departure as opposed to falling away, that is true, then the departure must occur before the man of sin can be revealed.  That departure would imply the removal of the righteous.  And V6 would affirm that.  Adding to the passage by stating it is a departure from God is taking liberties with the text to support a presupposition.  (be careful how you sling around the name Pharisee)  The only way the word can be used in that context is if there was a definite article stating what was being departed from.  Like in Acts 21:21, where apostosia is used and the definite article, Moses (the Law), is mentioned.  In that instance it would be correct to say "departing from Moses (the Law).  But the passage in 2 Thes 2:3 does not express what is being departed from.  Kenneth Wuest and many other Greek scholars have explained this quite well, much better than I have here.

With verse 6 saying that the one who restrains (Holy Spirit who indwells the believers) is taken out of the way after He has handed off the Church to the Messiah, similar to a linebacker stepping aside and allowing the opposition into the backfield in a football game, the 1st seal explicitly shows this man of sin coming forth with a covenant in hand.  The first mention of "bow" in scripture, back in Genesis, was when the Lord set a Bow in the air to symbolize He would never destroy the earth by water again.  A covenant God made.  The law of first mention, a hermeneutical principle, applies.  Likewise, the Bow the rider has in the 1st seal is a covenant.  This affirms Daniel 9:27

And Isaiah 26 and Zephaniah 2 explicitly state that the righteous are hidden from that day of wrath.  Which going back to what I stated in the first paragraph, is the seals being opened.

The reliance on the wisdom of men by the wolves is at least consistent. Clever rationalizations flummox the weak minded in the experience of the predator, to their demise. Please, continue to rely on men, implication, rationalization, private interpretations; be swayed by fear, gain, and distrust; continue to cherry pick, discount the truth, and be oblivious to the concepts.  Continue to speak in the manner to which you have grown accustomed and lead in the way you see fit. The moment you are working toward rushes ahead, gaining speed, it's momentum irresistible, and in all likelihood unstoppable.

[Steve Conley]

On 8/8/2017 at 6:36 PM, iamlamad said:

Readers beware! This false logic has been around for a long time. It is the DAY OF THE LORD (not the gathering) that Paul is talking about. His argument is, once one sees the man of sin revealed, they will KNOW that the Day of the Lord has started and they are then IN IT. But, Paul added one thing: the man of sin cannot be revealed until the departing takes place: the very gathering that Paul put as the THEME of this passage.

Of course, if people falsely imagine that the "Day of the Lord" is synonymous with the rapture, they might buy into this false argument.  Always remember, the "Day of the Lord" is a DARK day, where God comes to destroy this world and the sinners in the world. It is also "the day of His wrath" so the rapture will certainly take place before this day of His wrath.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

iamlamad, I was pre-trib for 40 years and taught it for thirty. However, by God’s grace I came to recognize that there were some fundamental flaws, false assumptions, that insured the development of a flawed model for the order of end time events for the pre-tribulationist and post-tribulationist alike. Being given these false assumptions as babes and going through the process of developing an understanding of Biblical prophecy in light of them, has led to some very tenuous eschatological systems.

The first false assumption is that the seventieth week is the “Tribulation Period” or the period of God's wrath.

We do believe that the seventieth week remains in the future and will be initiated by the confirmation of the covenant with many by the prince that shall come (Antichrist, Beast) (Dan 9:26-27). However, there is nothing said about it being unparalleled until the middle of the week when the “great tribulation” begins. There is not a single passage which indicates that Jacob’s troubles, the time of trouble that Daniel spoke of, or the wrath of God on the day of the Lord begin at the beginning of the week. These are all unparalleled events, none of which happen until the second half of the week.

Yes, the beginning of sorrows that Jesus spoke of parallels what John sees when the first three seals are opened, and they appear to take place in the first part of the week, but the wrath of God is not present until the seventh seal is opened and the first trumpet blown. What John sees at the opening of the 4th and 5th seal, describes the unparalleled persecution of the church and Israel, in the great tribulation. This persecution comes from the Beast and his followers. The Beast will be given power by Satan when he is cast out of Heaven to the Earth having great wrath (Rev 12:12).

If you will notice in Rev 6:9-11 that the souls under the alter shall be crying out for God to avenge their blood upon the earth dwellers. However, they are told that they must wait a little while until their brethren and fellowservants are killed as they were. It is important to see that God’s wrath has not yet been poured out at the opening of the fifth seal. He tells them that they should rest a little season, because more had to be martyred before God would avenge them.

Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

If you will notice in Rev 6:12-17 that the cosmic sign and great earthquake that portends the day of the Lord is seen by John at the opening of the sixth seal. Joel and Peter, quoting Joel, both said that before the day of the Lord could come that the cosmic sign must take place first.

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. 

Act 2:20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 

John describes the cosmic sign and the terrible shaking of the earth that Isaiah spoke of, when the day of the Lord comes.

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 
Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? 

Isa 2:19  And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. 

Isa 13:6  Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. 
Isa 13:7  Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man’s heart shall melt: 
Isa 13:8  And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. 
Isa 13:9  Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 
Isa 13:10  For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. 
Isa 13:11  And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

The cosmic sign of the sun, moon, and stars going dark must come before the day of the Lord (God’s wrath at the beginning of the day of the Lord) can come. At the opening of the sixth seal God’s wrath is impending. The earth dwellers, that is, those who have worshiped the Beast and received his mark, and have been persecuting the church, shall begin to hide when this most significant cosmic sign appears (Rev 6:15-17; Isa 2:19). It is upon that very day that sudden destruction shall come upon them as a thief and they shall not escape (1Thes 5:2-3). However, when these signs appear the saints who remain alive will look up and lift up their heads for their redemption draweth nigh (Luke 21:25-28).

Before God begins to pour out His wrath on that day, the Lord Jesus and the holy angels will appear in the clouds (Matt 24:30; Rev 1:7; Mark 8:38; 2Thes 2:1), the dead in Christ shall be resurrected (1Cor 15:51-52; Dan 12:1-2; Rev 20:4-6), the living believer shall be changed (1Cor 15:51-52; Phil 3:20-21), they together shall be gathered by the angels unto Jesus in the clouds (Matt 24:31; 1Thes 4:16-17; 2Thes 2:1), and taken to the Fathers house to stand before the throne (John 14:3; Rev 7:9-17). Only after the church, the elect, are safely removed from the earth will God’s fierce wrath be poured out upon the earth dwellers in the trumpet and vial judgements followed by the destruction of the Beast, False prophet, and their followers at Armageddon.

This period of God’s wrath lasts at least six months and no more than 3 1/2 years roughly. It takes up what is remaining of the last half of the week after the great tribulation is cut short. We are not told how long the great tribulation is. All we know is that it starts in the middle of the week and that is shares the 3 1/2 years with the wrath of God in the beginning of the day of the Lord. The fifth trumpet judgement lasts 5 months and it is part of God’s wrath. There has to be enough time to accomplish all the trumpet and vial judgements and the destruction of the Beast and the armies that follow him at the end of the week.

Jesus lets us know when the wrath of God on the day of the Lord begins.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 

Jesus says that the cosmic sign that comes before the day of the Lord appears immediately after the tribulation of those days, which in context is the great tribulation that he identified in verse 21. After the great tribulation is the cosmic sign. After the cosmic sign is the wrath of God in the beginning of the day of the Lord. There are two periods of tribulation. In the first the Beast tribulates the church and Israel. In the second God tribulates the earth dwellers who worship the beast and persecuted the saints. They both take place in the second half of the week, one after the other.

When you realize that the day of the Lord, and therefore God’s wrath, doesn’t begin until after the great tribulation is cut short at some point in the second half of the week, it has a big impact upon your eschatological model. (Note: the beast continues for 42 months, but his ability to persecute the church is over when the cosmic sign appears indicating that Christ’s return to gather His own unto Himself is at hand. At that point they hide, but we look up.)

Remember, we were given a faulty frame upon which to build our eschatological house. The only way to end up with the house (Biblical eschatological model) that the Lord has given us, is to start over with the frame that the Holy Scriptures provides us. Take the verses which make explicit statements as the framework. Statements which are without question. These are certainties, they can be depended upon. Complete your frame before you try to fill it in with the things that appear to be implied. Once you have taken all the explicit statements on the matter, then use them as true reference points to measure the implications of other verses by.

Doing this will provide you with an end times model that has the full support of the Scriptures, without the need to do a bunch of hermeneutical gymnastics. Eisegesis and hermeneutical gymnastics are examples of what the Apostle Peter identified as wresting the Scriptures. Those who do such are false teachers even though they may have the best of intentions. They do great damage to themselves and those that fall under their teaching.

Exposing one false assumption is enough for now.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lamb

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

iamlamad, I was pre-trib for 40 years and taught it for thirty. However, by God’s grace I came to recognize that there were some fundamental flaws, false assumptions, that insured the development of a flawed model for the order of end time events for the pre-tribulationist and post-tribulationist alike. Being given these false assumptions as babes and going through the process of developing an understanding of Biblical prophecy in light of them, has led to some very tenuous eschatological systems.

...

Doing this will provide you with an end times model that has the full support of the Scriptures, without the need to do a bunch of hermeneutical gymnastics. Eisegesis and hermeneutical gymnastics are examples of what the Apostle Peter identified as wresting the Scriptures. Those who do such are false teachers even though they may have the best of intentions. They do great damage to themselves and those that fall under their teaching.

 

Exposing one false assumption is enough for now.

 

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lamb

 

Thanks for your post. It was in depth.

Steve, it seems you have jumped, lock stock and barrel, into the prewrath camp. I have almost worn out the two first books on prewrath, by Van Kampen and Rosenthal. I have watched a video by Paul Dorgan countless times. 

My conclusion? This prewrath theory is based on faulty exegesis. It forces one to do SERIOUS rearranging of Revelation. It all was founded on a false premise: that the signs in the sun and moon would be seen only once. 

The truth is, they will be twice, and will be different each time, and each time will be a sign for a different event. 

Prewrath theory was created by Robert Van Kampen and Marvin Rosenthal. It has been presented recently by Paul Dorgan and others, on youtube, as a very logical conclusion to end time scriptures.

However, it is a theory created from a mis-understanding  and poor exegesis of end times scriptures.

  It is true that the church will be raptured out before God’s wrath.  Many scriptures tell us this.

1 Thes. 5:⁹ For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 5:⁹ Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

It is completely UNTRUE that the rapture will come post-trib.  But to know this for sure, one must know when the “trib” begins.

 For this discussion, “trib” will be used for the “70^th Week of Daniel.”  Since I mentioned this title, Daniel wrote that this 70^th week was for HIS PEOPLE: the Jews and Hebrews – NOT FOR THE CHURCH!

 What started this prewrath theory?  Robert Van Kampen called Marvin Rosenthal on the phone and said, “I’ve found it!” It was the “key” he had been searching for over the years.  He  noticed that in Joel 2, the signs in the sun and moon come BEFORE the Day of the Lord, and in Matthew 24, the signs in the sun and moon come AFTER the  days of great tribulation.

 Therefore, by simple logic, the progression would be the great tribulation, followed by the signs in the sun and moon, followed by the Day of the Lord.  This is prewrath in a nutshell.   The problem is, it is totally false – not in any way the intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit.  So WHERE did prewrath go wrong? Where are these prewrathers missing it?

 This has NOT come from any preconceived ideas or theories. It has come from meditating on end times scriptures and waiting on the Lord to tell what His intent was when He caused the writers to write. This will simply take scripture for its literal and intended meaning.

 WHY is prewrath wrong?  It is simply not the intent of scripture.  Let’s begin with these signs in the sun and moon. Prewrath lumps all these verses of the signs in the sun and moon together as ONE SIGN. Does the bible agree? NO!

 Joel 2:³¹ The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

 A blood red moon is common: many have seen the moon appear blood red during a total eclipse.  The point here is, the MOON IS VISIBLE, else how would anyone know it is red in color? The intent of this sign is that PEOPLE SEE IT! They will SEE that the moon appears RED.

 Matthew 24:²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

 Do you see a difference? In Joel’s verse, the moon DOES give light, but it appears to us as blood red.  It is visible. Here in Matthew, the moon is invisible! We CANNOT see the moon if no light is being reflected. God is talking about total darkness! Not even the stars will be seen.

 These are two DIFFERENT signs that will be given for two DIFFERENT purposes and will happen at two DIFFERENT times.

 The truth is, there will be two more times (at least) that we will see these signs in the sun and moon. The verse in Joel 2, with the moon appearing as blood red, will be the sign for the coming Day of the Lord. This sign will be seen BEFORE the Day of the Lord and BEFORE the days of great tribulation (last half of the 70^th week.)

 The sun and moon both darkened, as shown in Matthew 24, will be the sign for the coming of Our Lord, as we read in Revelation 19: His coming on a white horse. This sign will be seen AFTER the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of are finished.

 TWO signs,

TWO different times,

TWO different purposes.

 The “Day of the Lord” begins with the great earthquake at the 6^th seal, or at the 7^th seal.  John wrote concerning the 6^th seal:

“For the great day of his wrath is come…”

In English this appears to be present tense and at the 6^th seal events. However, in the original Greek it is in the Aorist Tense which shows no tense or timing at all. There is no exact English translation. Therefore we can say that the DAY has started with the great earthquake, OR that the DAY is about to start with the 7^th seal. John does not make this clear.

The 70^th week of Daniel will begin at the 7^th seal, so the DAY and the WEEK will begin simultaneously or almost simultaneously. The 70^th week is INSIDE the Day of the Lord. The week will end at the 7^th vial, but the DAY will continue.

 In fact, the book of Joel shows us both of these signs.

Joel 2:³¹ The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come. This is clearly the sign that will be seen before the start of the Day of the Lord. (The DAY starts with the 6^th seal earthquake or the 7^th seal.)

 Joel 3:¹⁵ The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

¹⁶ The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

¹⁷ So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion…

 This is clearly speaking of a time AFTER Jesus returns to earth. (Rev. 19)

 Let’s see the context of Joel 3:

Joel 3:² I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

¹⁶ The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem…

 

The gathering of all nations is about the battle of Armageddon.

(Revelation chapter 19) Verse 16 is clearly after Christ has returned to earth. He will speak from Jerusalem. Notice the sign in verse 15 is identical to the sign given in Matthew 24: the sun and moon invisible: in other words – DARKNESS on earth. Even the stars will be dark. NO ONE will miss this sign: total darkness! It is the sign of Christ’s coming!

 Therefore, these signs in the sun and moon CANNOT be lumped together as one sign!  That is very sloppy exegesis.

 These signs will be seen TWICE:

 FIRST: with a blood red moon as the sign for the Day of the Lord, and 

SECOND: both the sun and moon darkened (not giving light) as the sign for the return of Christ. 

These two signs will be separated by over 7 years between the two.

Always remember: TWO DIFFERENT SIGNS;  Given at TWO different times, and for TWO DIFFERENT EVENTS

 Where is the 70^th week laid out for us in the book of Revelation?

It is “marked”* by 7’s:

The 7^th seal “marks” the beginning of the week.

The 7^th trumpet “marks” the exact midpoint.

The 7^th vial “marks” the end of the week.

Many who say they are pretrib or prewrath don’t know where the “trib” or 70^th week begins in Revelation, or where the rapture is found, so how can they be sure if the rapture is pretrib, midtrib, prewrath or posttrib?

The seals are not a part of the 70^th week or trib. 

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

Edited February 26, 2018 by iamlamad

[Steve Conley]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Thanks for your post. It was in depth.

Steve, it seems you have jumped, lock stock and barrel, into the prewrath camp. I have almost worn out the two first books on prewrath, by Van Kampen and Rosenthal. I have watched a video by Paul Dorgan countless times. 

My conclusion? This prewrath theory is based on faulty exegesis. It forces one to do SERIOUS rearranging of Revelation. It all was founded on a false premise: that the signs in the sun and moon would be seen only once. 

The truth is, they will be twice, and will be different each time, and each time will be a sign for a different event. 

Prewrath theory was created by Robert Van Kampen and Marvin Rosenthal. It has been presented recently by Paul Dorgan and others, on youtube, as a very logical conclusion to end time scriptures.

However, it is a theory created from a mis-understanding  and poor exegesis of end times scriptures.

  It is true that the church will be raptured out before God’s wrath.  Many scriptures tell us this.

1 Thes. 5:⁹ For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 5:⁹ Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

It is completely UNTRUE that the rapture will come post-trib.  But to know this for sure, one must know when the “trib” begins.

 For this discussion, “trib” will be used for the “70^th Week of Daniel.”  Since I mentioned this title, Daniel wrote that this 70^th week was for HIS PEOPLE: the Jews and Hebrews – NOT FOR THE CHURCH!

 What started this prewrath theory?  Robert Van Kampen called Marvin Rosenthal on the phone and said, “I’ve found it!” It was the “key” he had been searching for over the years.  He  noticed that in Joel 2, the signs in the sun and moon come BEFORE the Day of the Lord, and in Matthew 24, the signs in the sun and moon come AFTER the  days of great tribulation.

 Therefore, by simple logic, the progression would be the great tribulation, followed by the signs in the sun and moon, followed by the Day of the Lord.  This is prewrath in a nutshell.   The problem is, it is totally false – not in any way the intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit.  So WHERE did prewrath go wrong? Where are these prewrathers missing it?

 This has NOT come from any preconceived ideas or theories. It has come from meditating on end times scriptures and waiting on the Lord to tell what His intent was when He caused the writers to write. This will simply take scripture for its literal and intended meaning.

 WHY is prewrath wrong?  It is simply not the intent of scripture.  Let’s begin with these signs in the sun and moon. Prewrath lumps all these verses of the signs in the sun and moon together as ONE SIGN. Does the bible agree? NO!

 Joel 2:³¹ The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

 A blood red moon is common: many have seen the moon appear blood red during a total eclipse.  The point here is, the MOON IS VISIBLE, else how would anyone know it is red in color? The intent of this sign is that PEOPLE SEE IT! They will SEE that the moon appears RED.

 Matthew 24:²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

 Do you see a difference? In Joel’s verse, the moon DOES give light, but it appears to us as blood red.  It is visible. Here in Matthew, the moon is invisible! We CANNOT see the moon if no light is being reflected. God is talking about total darkness! Not even the stars will be seen.

 These are two DIFFERENT signs that will be given for two DIFFERENT purposes and will happen at two DIFFERENT times.

 The truth is, there will be two more times (at least) that we will see these signs in the sun and moon. The verse in Joel 2, with the moon appearing as blood red, will be the sign for the coming Day of the Lord. This sign will be seen BEFORE the Day of the Lord and BEFORE the days of great tribulation (last half of the 70^th week.)

 The sun and moon both darkened, as shown in Matthew 24, will be the sign for the coming of Our Lord, as we read in Revelation 19: His coming on a white horse. This sign will be seen AFTER the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of are finished.

 TWO signs,

TWO different times,

TWO different purposes.

 The “Day of the Lord” begins with the great earthquake at the 6^th seal, or at the 7^th seal.  John wrote concerning the 6^th seal:

“For the great day of his wrath is come…”

In English this appears to be present tense and at the 6^th seal events. However, in the original Greek it is in the Aorist Tense which shows no tense or timing at all. There is no exact English translation. Therefore we can say that the DAY has started with the great earthquake, OR that the DAY is about to start with the 7^th seal. John does not make this clear.

The 70^th week of Daniel will begin at the 7^th seal, so the DAY and the WEEK will begin simultaneously or almost simultaneously. The 70^th week is INSIDE the Day of the Lord. The week will end at the 7^th vial, but the DAY will continue.

 In fact, the book of Joel shows us both of these signs.

Joel 2:³¹ The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come. This is clearly the sign that will be seen before the start of the Day of the Lord. (The DAY starts with the 6^th seal earthquake or the 7^th seal.)

 Joel 3:¹⁵ The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

¹⁶ The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

¹⁷ So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion…

 This is clearly speaking of a time AFTER Jesus returns to earth. (Rev. 19)

 Let’s see the context of Joel 3:

Joel 3:² I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

¹⁶ The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem…

 

The gathering of all nations is about the battle of Armageddon.

(Revelation chapter 19) Verse 16 is clearly after Christ has returned to earth. He will speak from Jerusalem. Notice the sign in verse 15 is identical to the sign given in Matthew 24: the sun and moon invisible: in other words – DARKNESS on earth. Even the stars will be dark. NO ONE will miss this sign: total darkness! It is the sign of Christ’s coming!

 Therefore, these signs in the sun and moon CANNOT be lumped together as one sign!  That is very sloppy exegesis.

 These signs will be seen TWICE:

 FIRST: with a blood red moon as the sign for the Day of the Lord, and 

SECOND: both the sun and moon darkened (not giving light) as the sign for the return of Christ. 

These two signs will be separated by over 7 years between the two.

Always remember: TWO DIFFERENT SIGNS;  Given at TWO different times, and for TWO DIFFERENT EVENTS

 Where is the 70^th week laid out for us in the book of Revelation?

It is “marked”* by 7’s:

The 7^th seal “marks” the beginning of the week.

The 7^th trumpet “marks” the exact midpoint.

The 7^th vial “marks” the end of the week.

Many who say they are pretrib or prewrath don’t know where the “trib” or 70^th week begins in Revelation, or where the rapture is found, so how can they be sure if the rapture is pretrib, midtrib, prewrath or posttrib?

The seals are not a part of the 70^th week or trib. 

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

Greetings in the name of the Lord,

Iamlamad, I have to strongly disagree with you on most of what you have said. All the wishful thinking in the world will not change the fact that Jesus only has one second coming and it takes place in the second half of the week between the great tribulation and the wrath of God poured out at the beginning of the day of the Lord.

First of all you have made some wrong assumptions, I have not yet read The Sign or Rosenthal's book, so the flavor of the pre-wrath position that I hold is entirely my own. Also, I have to say, the flavor of the pre-trib position that you hold is somewhat unique if I understand you correctly.

Concerning the references to the cosmic sign, it is easily observable that the many eschatological day of the Lord passages use varying language to describe the single cosmic sign portending the day of the Lord. Early on in my discovery of the pre-trib error, I considered your argument, that there were different cosmic signs, and came to the conclusion that they were all the same event. For instance, we see below, Isaiah speaking of the events that portend the day of the Lord. Notice the language: "is at hand; it shall come" this clearly indicates that these things are precursors, or signs, which indicate that the arrival of the day of the Lord is impending.

Isa 13:6  Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:7  Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
Isa 13:8  And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Isa 13:9  Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10  For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11  And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Joe 2:30  And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Both descriptions of the sun, moon, and stars portend the day of the Lord. I don't think it is hard to understand how each of these varying descriptions refer to the same thing. Let's look at each Gospel account of Christ's words on this cosmic sign.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation [great tribulation] of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Mar 13:24  But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25  And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

If your right, maybe Matthew, Mark, and Luke were all talking about a different event, because they all had a different variation on the same thing and they were each under the superintendence of the Holy Spirit when they wrote these words. 

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The cosmic sign that John sees is the same in description as that of Joel when it comes to the moon, both mention blood.

Isaiah gives plenty more information linking the Rev 6:12-17 to the day of the Lord.

Isa 2:10  Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty.
Isa 2:11  The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
Isa 2:12  For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

Isa 2:19  And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

These all speak of the same cosmic event that portends (comes before, serving as a sign of its impending arrival) the day of the Lord.

You are exactly right it has been very sloppy exegesis on your part. You will have to do better next time.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The timing of the first resurrection lets us know that there is only one second coming of Christ not multiple comings as you envision.

Daniel tells us that there is a resurrection after the unparalleled time of trouble that begins in the middle of the week. This is the great tribulation that Jesus returns after.

Dan 12:1  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

What resurrection is this? Paul tells us that there are only two resurrections to come, the first and the second.

1Co 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Paul says one will take place at Christ's parousia and the other after the end of the millennium rebellion of Satan is put down. This is exactly what we find was revealed to John.

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The second resurrection is the resurrection of the damned, it is those who will experience the second death. Paul tells us that there is only one resurrection of the just unto eternal life. It takes place on the day of Christ or on day of the Lord, both begin at Jesus' singular second coming.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

So, we see the resurrection unto life takes place at Christ's return following the great tribulation, but before the wrath of God is poured out upon the day of the Lord.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Moving on to your thinking that the seals are already under way, that they come before the seventieth week. Where is the world today in relation to the seven seals? Just wanting to know more about your novel idea.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto Jesus Christ our Lord

Edited February 27, 2018 by Steve Conley

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord,

Iamlamad, I have to strongly disagree with you on most of what you have said. All the wishful thinking in the world will not change the fact that Jesus only has one second coming and it takes place in the second half of the week between the great tribulation and the wrath of God poured out at the beginning of the day of the Lord.

...

I agree, one SECOND coming, as seen in 1 Thes. 4, but also one THIRD coming as shown in Rev. 19.  As for your timing, it is simply not scriptural. Rev. shows His coming in power and glory is very clearly after the 70th week has finished. 

It seems you have no idea where the days of Great Tribulation that Jesus spoke of will take place in Revelation. Did you not notice in chapter 13 that the image and mark are not established until after the second beast is seen? Did you not notice that God sends His warning not to take the mark, in chapter 14? Did you not notice that those who refuse the mark and are beheaded only begin showing up in heaven in chapter 15? The days of GT that Jesus spoke of take place after chapter 14 and during chapter 15.

The truth is, Satan's wrath is in these beheadings. It is in the image and forcing people to worship an image, and it is in the mark, and that no one can buy or sell without it. And Satan's wrath will be after he is cast down from the heavenly realms at the midpoint of the week and on from there. And that is also when God's wrath is poured out.

In other words, Satan's wrath and God's wrath come AT THE SAME TIME, and cannot be separated.  The truth is, God will begin to pour out the vials when the beheadings reach their peak. God will use the vials of His wrath to SHORTEN those days of great tribulation. the Beast will still get his 42 months, but his armies will be rendered helpless after a few vials have been poured out.  The 70th week of Daniel ENDS with the 7th vial, but Jesus does not return then. 

Next, you have missed it on the start of the Day of the Lord. Why not just believe John? The DAY begins at the 6th seal. As John wrote, "the day of His wrath has come." And this is before the 7th seal officially starts the 70th week of Daniel.  

Always remember: AXIOM on Revelation:

Any theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

I can see that your theory requires much rearranging of Revelation to fit. It will certainly be proven wrong.

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord,

...

First of all you have made some wrong assumptions, I have not yet read The Sign or Rosenthal's book, so the flavor of the pre-wrath position that I hold is entirely my own. Also, I have to say, the flavor of the pre-trib position that you hold is somewhat unique if I understand you correctly.

Concerning the references to the cosmic sign, it is easily observable that the many eschatological day of the Lord passages use varying language to describe the single cosmic sign portending the day of the Lord. Early on in my discovery of the pre-trib error, I considered your argument, that there were different cosmic signs, and came to the conclusion that they were all the same event. For instance, we see below, Isaiah speaking of the events that portend the day of the Lord. Notice the language: "is at hand; it shall come" this clearly indicates that these things are precursors, or signs, which indicate that the arrival of the day of the Lord is impending.

Isa 13:6  Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:7  Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
Isa 13:8  And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Isa 13:9  Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10  For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11  And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Joe 2:30  And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Both descriptions of the sun, moon, and stars portend the day of the Lord. I don't think it is hard to understand how each of these varying descriptions refer to the same thing. Let's look at each Gospel account of Christ's words on this cosmic sign.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation [great tribulation] of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Mar 13:24  But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25  And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

If your right, maybe Matthew, Mark, and Luke were all talking about a different event, because they all had a different variation on the same thing and they were each under the superintendence of the Holy Spirit when they wrote these words. 

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The cosmic sign that John sees is the same in description as that of Joel when it comes to the moon, both mention blood.

Isaiah gives plenty more information linking the Rev 6:12-17 to the day of the Lord.

Isa 2:10  Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty.
Isa 2:11  The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
Isa 2:12  For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

Isa 2:19  And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

These all speak of the same cosmic event that portends (comes before, serving as a sign of its impending arrival) the day of the Lord.

...

I agree with you that Isaiah 2 points straight to the 6th seal event that John wrote of. Using Isaiah and Joel 2, anyone could tell but those events that THE DAY has started. That is why the Holy Spirit had John write, "the day of His wrath has come." 

However, we also know that God will come and get us BEFORE His wrath begins. That means the rapture of the church must come before the 6th seal. And in fact, if we compare Paul in 1 thes. 4 & 5, we see that His coming FOR His saints indeed comes before His wrath. Paul's passage shows us that His coming FOR His saints will be the trigger for the start of the Day of the Lord.  If you notice, Paul mentions the day of the Lord just 4 verses after the catching up of the saints verse.  

Paul tells us, those living in darkness get "sudden destruction" while at the very same moment, those living in Christ get "salvation" (raptured) and get to "live together with Him." 

Did you ever wonder what Paul's "sudden destruction" will be? Matthew gives us a hint in chapter 27 by writing, "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened." When Jesus raised those elders of the Old Covenant  - that event caused a mighty earthquake. When God raises the dead in Christ, that too will cause a great earthquake, but this time it will be worldwide, because the dead in Christ are worldwide.  Paul wrote that rather than wrath (sudden destruction earthquake) we get raptured.

Where then do we find the first such earthquake in Revelation? It is at the 6th seal. The rapture then, and His SECOND coming, will be just a moment before the 6th seal. This is confirmed by what we read at the 5th seal. They are the martyrs of the church age. James and Stephen were surely in that group. They had no idea how long it would be before judgment, so they asked. They were told basically that they had to wait until the final number of church age martyrs would come in. 

What would make the very last church age martyr (killed the same way they were killed: as church age martyrs)? Of course the END of the church age. The next martyr would be a 70th week or Day of the Lord martyr. So the 5th seal gives us a hint that the rapture would be the next event. 

To establish a timeline, the 6th seal earthquake comes before the 70th week begins.  A picture is worth many words:

 

|<---7th seal begins the week-------------7th trumpet marks the midpoint-------------7th vial ends it---->|

Gods wrath begins 6th seal |<---7th seal begins the week-----7th trumpet marks the midpoint----7th vial ends it---->|

Wrath begins |<--7th seal begins the week---7th trumpet marks the midpoint---7th vial ends it- wrath complete--->|

In words, God's wrath is felt all through the 7th week.

^Rapture -> 6th seal begins Wrath ->|<---7th seal -------------7th trumpet  -----------7th vial --->|

|<---7th seal begins the week-------------7th trumpet ---2nd Beast / image / mark / GT ---7th vial ends it---->|

Second coming / Rapture -> 6th seal   |<---7th seal ------7th trumpet  -------7th vial --->| Marriage / 3rd coming

 

This is the way John wrote, and it is the way it will take place when these events come. No human reasoning will change it.  John wrote Revelation as must as possible in a very chronological order. However, during the last half of the week, John had to write of 5 parallel paths to the end.  He had to cover each one separately, but did it very well. Next, John included a few parentheses and perhaps a couple of prophecies. Other than that, Revelation is in perfect order as written. 

Let me say it this way: events of a given chapter will always take place after events of a previous chapter and before the events of a later chapter, with the exception of parentheses. In other words, all seals must be opened before the first trumpet judgment can come, and all trumpet judgments must be sounded before any vials are poured out. 

Any theory that must attempt to rearrange Revelation to fit, will be proven wrong, period and end of story. 

Since a careful study of the Word shows that the DAY begins long before Christ returns in power to the Battle of Armageddon, it is necessary that the signs for each event are shown before the event begins. 

The best proof that these signs come twice is found in Joel, for Joel shows us both signs and shows us they are different and for a different purpose. Joel 2 shows us the sign for the start of the DAY, as shown at the 6th seal. Joel 3 shows us the sign for His coming (Rev. 19) and the sign for that event: two signs, different, and for different events.

These two events will be separated by at least 7 years.  Matthew and Mark both show the same sign as Joel 3: 

¹⁵ The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

What Joel is showing us, as is Matthew, Mark and Luke, is total darkness. John confirms:

 

Revelation 16:10

And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

 

Paul Dorkan made this very clear in his videos. It will be a sign that cannot be mistaken: TOTAL darkness. 

 

If there is total darkness, there cannot be a blood red moon.  Therefore I conclude that these signs will be shown twice. 

[Justin Adams]

Matt 24. 

Looking over the shoulder one can see how some prophesy works. Future stuff gives us a necessary sense to be alert - and that is all PERIOD. That it will probably happen in some recognizable form is a distinct probability - might even be possible. But to stake you beliefs on such a firm deterministic manner is fraught with danger. Leading others down your particular garden path is going to be frowned upon by the Lord High God who is in charge. The future is fluid to some extent. What men saw and recorded is necessarily veiled; as Saul said - if they had known they never would have slain Yeshua. He also said it is a mystery that angels long to look into.

If the angels can't figure it, then why do we think we can. Just be watchful and pray. And hope you are aware enough to be able to recognize it when it comes to pass. Matt 24 is a good thing to read carefully and often. Keep His saying in your heart.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Justin Adams

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord,

...

The timing of the first resurrection lets us know that there is only one second coming of Christ not multiple comings as you envision.

Daniel tells us that there is a resurrection after the unparalleled time of trouble that begins in the middle of the week. This is the great tribulation that Jesus returns after.

Dan 12:1  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

What resurrection is this? Paul tells us that there are only two resurrections to come, the first and the second.

1Co 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Paul says one will take place at Christ's parousia and the other after the end of the millennium rebellion of Satan is put down. This is exactly what we find was revealed to John.

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The second resurrection is the resurrection of the damned, it is those who will experience the second death. Paul tells us that there is only one resurrection of the just unto eternal life. It takes place on the day of Christ or on day of the Lord, both begin at Jesus' singular second coming.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

So, we see the resurrection unto life takes place at Christ's return following the great tribulation, but before the wrath of God is poured out upon the day of the Lord.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Moving on to your thinking that the seals are already under way, that they come before the seventieth week. Where is the world today in relation to the seven seals? Just wanting to know more about your novel idea.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto Jesus Christ our Lord

"First" as in the "first resurrection" is better translated as "chief" or "primary" as it is not the first in sequence. Jesus was the first in sequence. He was the first of the primary resurrection that is the only resurrection for the just. 

The dead in Christ will be the next wave of that "primary resurrection." Next will be the two witnesses and all the Old Testament saints along with those beheaded and/or put to death for their testimony during the week. 

Therefore, one cannot establish any kind of "timing" by the word "first." It is not first in sequence, but first in priority. 

So what is the "timing" of the first or primary resurrection? It began with Jesus, and will continue in the future with the church and then with the Old Testament saints. Therefore, your argument fails. 

I agree, Daniel speaks of both the resurrection of the just and the resurrection of the rest.  But we know from Revelation these two will not come at the same time. John tells us over and over (John's gospel) that there will be a resurrection on "the last day." that would be the last 24 hour day of the 70th week and would come at the 7th vial. Did you notice there is the world's worse ever earthquake there? 

The church has been waiting, between the 5th and 6th seals, for nearly 2000 years now.  John made it quite clear that the first seals (1 - 5) were opened as soon as Jesus ascended. 

 

You asked, "What resurrection is this?" Daniel speaks of both the resurrection of the just and of the unjust: two separate resurrections.  

The answer is, Jesus was the first person of the resurrection of the righteous. The Bride of Christ will be what we could call the second wave of that resurrection, and when the Old Testament saints rise, the third wave. But we are missing the 144,000. I am convinced they are raptured and will get their resurrection bodies around the midpoint of the week. Therefore I think they should be included, although they are changed, not raised from the dead. 

"Paul tells us that there is only one resurrection of the just unto eternal life. It takes place on the day of Christ or on day of the Lord, both begin at Jesus' singular second coming."

The answer is, YOU MISSED IT! This is simply not truth nor scripture. One very sure proof is that Jesus is the firstfruits of the resurrection for the righteous. But his resurrection came long ago, while the resurrection for the church is still future. You are thinking TIME, while John (and the Holy Spirit) were thinking priority or preeminence or rank. 

Do you imagine that the 6th seal comes at the same time as His coming in Rev. 19?  John tells us God's wrath (the Day of the LOrd) begins at the 6th seal, and Isaiah 2 confirms John is correct. So does Joel 2.  Yet, Christ's coming in power is not shown until chapter 19. The truth is, His coming as shown in chapter 19 will be over 7 years after the Day of the Lord begins. 

People have been trying to fit two separate comings into one coming for centuries. It simply will not work, for He is coming TWICE more, first FOR His bride, and then 7 plus years later WITH His bride. 

[Steve Conley]

54 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I agree, one SECOND coming, as seen in 1 Thes. 4, but also one THIRD coming as shown in Rev. 19.  As for your timing, it is simply not scriptural. Rev. shows His coming in power and glory is very clearly after the 70th week has finished. 

It seems you have no idea where the days of Great Tribulation that Jesus spoke of will take place in Revelation. Did you not notice in chapter 13 that the image and mark are not established until after the second beast is seen? Did you not notice that God sends His warning not to take the mark, in chapter 14? Did you not notice that those who refuse the mark and are beheaded only begin showing up in heaven in chapter 15? The days of GT that Jesus spoke of take place after chapter 14 and during chapter 15.

The truth is, Satan's wrath is in these beheadings. It is in the image and forcing people to worship an image, and it is in the mark, and that no one can buy or sell without it. And Satan's wrath will be after he is cast down from the heavenly realms at the midpoint of the week and on from there. And that is also when God's wrath is poured out.

In other words, Satan's wrath and God's wrath come AT THE SAME TIME, and cannot be separated.  The truth is, God will begin to pour out the vials when the beheadings reach their peak. God will use the vials of His wrath to SHORTEN those days of great tribulation. the Beast will still get his 42 months, but his armies will be rendered helpless after a few vials have been poured out.  The 70th week of Daniel ENDS with the 7th vial, but Jesus does not return then. 

Next, you have missed it on the start of the Day of the Lord. Why not just believe John? The DAY begins at the 6th seal. As John wrote, "the day of His wrath has come." And this is before the 7th seal officially starts the 70th week of Daniel.  

Always remember: AXIOM on Revelation:

Any theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

I can see that your theory requires much rearranging of Revelation to fit. It will certainly be proven wrong.

Greetings in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord,

Iamlamad, your understanding of the flow of what John saw as recorded in the book of Revelation is entirely unsupportable.

The most spoken of event in all of the holy Scriptures is the future day of the Lord. God began to reveal that future period of time early on in the OT. The prophets had much to say about it. Jesus reiterated what the prophets had said about it, adding some detail and the order of events associated with it. Later the apostles taught the exact same thing they learned from Jesus and the prophets. What John saw matched perfectly with that which had been prophesied.

I don't have time right now to take you through the whole book of Revelation to show you your error, but you can do yourself a lot of good if you will start with Jesus' explanation to His disciples the events surrounding His singular second coming.

The disciples ask 3 questions

Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

1) when shall these things be?

This refers to Jesus statement that not one stone would be left upon another, concerning the destruction of the Temple.

2) what shall be the sign of thy coming?

They asked for a sign to know the timing of His coming. Jesus gives them the order of events that His parousia (His return and continuing presence) follows.

3) what shall be the sign...of the end of the world?

It is important to see that Christ's return is associated with the end of the age. The word "world" is translated from the Greek word aeon which means an age or world system not the physical cosmos.

Mathew's gospel doesn't record Jesus' answer to the first question. To the second and third question Christ responds:

Mat 24:4  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. (The word Christ refers to the anointed one or Messiah)
Mat 24:6  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7  For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8  All these are the beginning of sorrows.

This first group of events Jesus calls the beginning of sorrows. He draws upon familiar analogy of the various pains the mother goes through as the body is preparing for child birth. These are paralleled by what John sees at the opening of the first three seals.

A Conqueror or a Messiah

Rev 6:1  And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
Rev 6:2  And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

War

Rev 6:3  And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:4  And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Famine

Rev 6:5  And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
Rev 6:6  And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

It should be noted that there is nothing unparalleled about what Jesus has described thus far. These type of things have happened for the past 2000 years. Jesus said concerning these things, "but the end is not yet." The end of the age comes later on.

What does Jesus say is next? Persecution of the believer, of the disciple of Christ

Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10  And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11  And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12  And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Jesus begins to go into greater detail about this coming unparalleled persecution

It begins in the middle of the week when the man of sin defiles the temple (Dan 9:27; 2Thes 2:3-10)

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

When the Beast stands in the Temple shewing the world that he is God flee immediately

Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The great tribulation shall be cut short to save some of the elect alive upon the earth

Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

There will be great deception during this time of great tribulation, even miracles performed by the false prophets

Mat 24:23  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25  Behold, I have told you before.

Jesus says that His return will be unmistakable, the whole world will know, don't believe all the false reports

Mat 24:26  Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28  For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

The great persecution of the elect, called great tribulation, parallels what John sees at the opening of the 4th and 5th seals

Rev 6:7  And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:8  And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Next Jesus identifies the cosmic sign associated with the day of the Lord as happening after the great tribulation

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

John sees this cosmic sign when the 6th seal is opened

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

It is the same cosmic sign that Joel and Isaiah refer to

Joe 2:30  And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Isa 13:6  Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:7  Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
Isa 13:8  And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Isa 13:9  Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10  For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11  And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

After the cosmic sign, He returns with the holy angels in the clouds of heaven, and gathers His elect unto himself

Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The elect who were raised from the dead and raptured are seen safe before the throne at the Fathers house

Rev 7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10  And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11  And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 7:12  Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15  Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Rev 7:16  They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Rev 7:17  For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

This is Jesus' order of events. If your's doesn't line up with His your wrong.

Hallelujah