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Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position


George

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1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Readers take note: John shows God's wrath beginning at the 6th seal, but in Revelation that is 3 1/2 years before the midpoint of the week! In other words, before the week begins. Understand, readers, that the book of Revelation IS that book in the Father;s hand from chapter 8 onward. this book is sealed by 7 seals. All 7 must be opened before the book can be opened to reveal the trumpet judgments, which are written INSIDE the book.

Understand, readers, that some people reject scripture and are just going to do what they do, for whatever reason seems good to them.  As Jesus said, "See to it that no one misleads you."  Beware those who claim "special revelation".  The word of God is the final authority.

  • And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.  Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”  Revelation 22:10
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1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:

 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

I say this to the readers of this comment. This deceiver has been given numerous opportunities to respond in repentance to the explicit statements of the Word of God. He resists the truth over and over again. It will not go well for him. Don't believe the lies, read the Scriptures, read the Scriptures, read the Scriptures, and trust the Lord to make them plain to you.


...

how interesting: someone here is  "this deceiver."  Well, let's look at a scripture:

Rev. 6

12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal,...1For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

I did not write this, John did.  This is telling us that the Day of the Lord STARTS right here! This is telling us God's wrath begins RIGHT HERE.

Notice How Isaiah put it:

Isa 2:10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty.

12 For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:


19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Now how John put it:

Rev. 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

John, it seems, copied almost word for word from Isaiah. The truth then is that the 6th seal will be the fulfillment of this prophecy by Isaiah as the START of the Day of the Lord. 

Don't take my word for this: read the book! what comes after the 6th seal?

the 7th seal  - - offically starts the 70th week of Daniel

trumpet judgments

7th trumpet marks the midpoint of the week

Beast and False prophet erect an image and force all to worship it. They force all to take a MARK.

Days of great tribulation follow

God begins pouring out the vials of His wrath with the associated plagues to SHORTEN those days of GT.

the 7th vial ENDS THE WEEK - but Jesus remains in heaven.

Marriage and supper take place IN HEAVEN The raptured church is ALREADY THERE, having been raptured before the 6th seal. 

Finally Jesus returns WITH the armies of heaven, including the previously raptured church. 

This is scripture, not preconceived ideas. 

Axiom on Revelation:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

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iamlamed, the scripture you referred to, Revelation 6:17, was spoken by those who rejected Christ and His salvation.  Yet, you feel like you can take their words to mean they understood when His Wrath was coming?  They had no clue when God's wrath would be poured out.  They were already so scared they were hiding themselves, thinking the worst is upon them.  They were wrong.   Let's read the complete scripture of the 6th seal, Revelation 6:12-17:

I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.  And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.  Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.  And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!  For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Now, let's look Revelation 16:1, which was first spoken of in Revelation 11:15-19 at the opening of sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth.”

So, who are you going to believe, sinners or the voice speaking in a loud voice int eh temple of heaven?

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4 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

...

The Scriptures are only confusing when one comes to them with a given framework upon which all the Scriptures must fit. When one tries to read a flawed system into the text he or she wrests or tortures the Holy writ from its plain teaching and is by definition a false teacher and deceiver. All those teachers involved in such eisegesis will witness soon enough that they have played the fool in contending for one of Satan's great deceptions. The pre-trib rapture is an escape that will not come. It has helped inoculate the religious lost against true salvation and the real nature of our identification with Christ as we live in this world. It has sold western evangelical Christianity into the damnation of the prosperity gospel by promising glory without suffering and an escape without tribulation. It is indeed a doctrine of devils. It asks you to cut out any opposing text and rely upon the assumed conclusions of "good godly men", all of which are equally in error.

iamlamad, You are a false teacher, wresting the Scriptures to your own destruction and to the harm of any who would follow your pernicious words.

...

 

Readers take note: now I am a "false teacher." Why is this? Simply because what I teach disagrees with his teaching. Let the reader decide who is the deceiver.

He declares that the pretrib rapture is and escape that will not come. I declare for all to hear that GOD is pretrib and will nost certainly come before the "trib" or 70th week to rescue those who are His. 

But it is not what I say, it is what SCripture declares. Notice how Paul put it, speaking of the rapture:

Paul tells us there is a SUDDENLY coming, at a time when people are saying "peace and safety." Therefore a day just like today. 

SUDDENLY and without warning the dead in Christ will fly up into the air,

And just as suddenly those alive in in Christ will fly up into the air with them, and TOGETHER (the gathering) we will rise up to meet the Lord in the air. 

Now, according to Paul, ONE SPLIT SECOND after the dead in Christ rise up, TWO different groups of people get two different results:

those living in darkness get "sudden destruction." Make no mistake, this sudden destruction will come one split second after the dead in Christ are raised: it will be a great, worldwide earthquake caused by the dead in Christ raising. Matthew wrote, "the earth quaked...and the graves were opened."

Again, AT THIS SAME TIME, those living in the light of the gospel get another ending...

 

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Again take note of what is written.....follow the bold:  "Them" get sudden destruction, but what to those in Christ get? We get "salvation" and get to "live together with Him!" HOW do we get to live with Him? Of course, by way of RAPTURE.

Notice closely, not me but PAUL: rather than "wrath (the sudden destruction) We get raptured. 

Now notice what this wrath is associated with:

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Notice that the Day of the Lord IS the day of His wrath, just as John put it at the 6th seal. 

Don't miss this: THEY get wrath, WE get raptured, happening at the same time.

We are OUT OF HERE before God's wrath. And where is that wrath in Revelation: of course at the 6th seal. 

I did not write this: it is GOD'S WORD. Pretrib is WRITTEN in God's word. Notice God's own "escape plan:"

Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Just as Paul said, those living in Christ get to escape, while those left behind get sudden destruction. 

Edited by iamlamad
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2 hours ago, OneLight said:

iamlamed, the scripture you referred to, Revelation 6:17, was spoken by those who rejected Christ and His salvation.  Yet, you feel like you can take their words to mean they understood when His Wrath was coming?  They had no clue when GOd's wrath would be poured out.  They were already so scared they were hiding themselves, thinking the worst is upon them.  They were wrong.   Let's read the complete scripture of the 6th seal, Revelation 6:12-17:

I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.  And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.  Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.  And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!  For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Now, let's look Revelation 16:1, which was first spoken of in Revelation 11:15-19 at the opening of sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth.”

So, who are you going to believe, sinners or the voice speaking in a loud voice int eh temple of heaven?

You can't just skim over a verse and hope to know the intent of the Author!  You have to DIG! You have to meditate.  What is the evidence?

What did they SEE? They saw the Sun turn dark and the moon appear blood red. They knew Joel said this was the sign for the Day of the Lord.  They saw from Kings down to peons running into the mountains and crying for the rocks to cover them: exact as Isaiah 2 said would happen at the Day of the Lord. 

Do I have to show YOu what Joel said? I guess so, because you have MISSED IT.

Joel 2   31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

They SAW the sun turn dark, and the SAW the moon turn to blood. They SAW the great earthquake.  They knew exactly what was happening: THE DAY was upon them.

So what happens next? The 7th seal opens the 70th week and the trumpet judgments come. What do they do? They DESTROY THE EARTH a piece at a time. 

Did you not read?

Isaiah 13:9  Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

This is EXACTLY what happens with the trumpet judgments -  only God in His mercy starts judgment with 1/3 judgments. But they trumpets are most certainly a fulfillment of Isaiah 13:9. It is the DAY.  But the DAY continues with the vials of God's wrath.  Make no mistake here, the BIBLE tells us the entire 70th week is God's wrath.  So much for your theories. Follow the WORD and you won't go wrong.  If the Joel 2 signs were not there, the Isaiah 2 signs would be enough to know THE DAY has started. If the Isaiah 2 signs were not there, then the Joel 2 signs would be enough to know THE DAY has started. But we have BOTH. And they we see in the trumpets that God begins the destruction of the world: again THE DAY. 

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12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Joel 2   31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

They SAW the sun turn dark, and the SAW the moon turn to blood. They SAW the great earthquake.  They knew exactly what was happening: THE DAY was upon them.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

I agree with the quoted statement 100%. At the opening of the sixth seal the earth dwellers will hide because they know God's wrath is impending. The day of the Lord has come and they were caught like a thief. But, before sudden destruction comes upon them in the form of trumpet and vial judgements the Lord comes in the clouds and resurrects/raptures His own. Only after that does he pour out His wrath.

I have said all throughout my comments that the church is not appointed unto God's wrath on the day of the Lord to which you also agree. Much that you have commented back with are the very things I teach. Help me to understand where you are coming from. Please answer a few questions for me.

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

the 7th seal  - - offically starts the 70th week of Daniel

1) Concerning the above statement, what Scriptures tell us that the seventh seal starts the seventieth week. Please provide details with a logical progression.

2) Do you recognize Matt 24:15, 21 and Daniel 9:27 as establishing a starting point for the great tribulation, that it begins in the middle of the week? If not, why?

That's enough for now

Hallelujah

Edited by Steve Conley
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14 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You can't just skim over a verse and hope to know the intent of the Author!  You have to DIG! You have to meditate.  What is the evidence?

What did they SEE? They saw the Sun turn dark and the moon appear blood red. They knew Joel said this was the sign for the Day of the Lord.  They saw from Kings down to peons running into the mountains and crying for the rocks to cover them: exact as Isaiah 2 said would happen at the Day of the Lord. 

Do I have to show YOu what Joel said? I guess so, because you have MISSED IT.

Joel 2   31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

They SAW the sun turn dark, and the SAW the moon turn to blood. They SAW the great earthquake.  They knew exactly what was happening: THE DAY was upon them.

So what happens next? The 7th seal opens the 70th week and the trumpet judgments come. What do they do? They DESTROY THE EARTH a piece at a time. 

Did you not read?

Isaiah 13:9  Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

This is EXACTLY what happens with the trumpet judgments -  only God in His mercy starts judgment with 1/3 judgments. But they trumpets are most certainly a fulfillment of Isaiah 13:9. It is the DAY.  But the DAY continues with the vials of God's wrath.  Make no mistake here, the BIBLE tells us the entire 70th week is God's wrath.  So much for your theories. Follow the WORD and you won't go wrong.  If the Joel 2 signs were not there, the Isaiah 2 signs would be enough to know THE DAY has started. If the Isaiah 2 signs were not there, then the Joel 2 signs would be enough to know THE DAY has started. But we have BOTH. And they we see in the trumpets that God begins the destruction of the world: again THE DAY. 

It explains why they think His wrath has come upon then, which I never said I didn't understand, but what is lacking is the fact that this is just the beginning as there are still 7 trumpets and 7 bowls of His wrath to come.  They just don't understand that His wrath, as scripture points out, has not yet happened.

I ask because I don't remember ... are you of the belief that the seals, trumpets and bowls happen at the same time?

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On 3/2/2018 at 9:35 AM, OneLight said:

It explains why they think His wrath has come upon then, which I never said I didn't understand, but what is lacking is the fact that this is just the beginning as there are still 7 trumpets and 7 bowls of His wrath to come.  They just don't understand that His wrath, as scripture points out, has not yet happened.

I ask because I don't remember ... are you of the belief that the seals, trumpets and bowls happen at the same time?

I have often wondered If when John wrote "The day of His wrath has come" it he meant with the earthquake or that it was ABOUT to begin with the first Trumpet judgment. I have so far chose the earthquake, because all the signs were there. Next, I don't think the Holy Spirit was trying to trick us here. I think He included "the day of His wrath has come" because it started with the earthquake.  I think the Holy Spirit is telling us that they read the signs correctly and knew that THE DAY had started. 

If we study 1 thes. 5, we learn the same thing: the Sudden destruction comes the very same time as the catching up. One group of people get caught up and ESCAPE the sudden destruction, while another group of people are left behind and suffer the Sudden destruction. Then Paul tells us that this sudden destruction is the beginning of God's wrath.  Therefore we have two witnesses. 

It would be silly to believe they happen at the same time: the seals are sealing the document and said document cannot be opened to reveal the trumpet and bowl judgments until all 7 seals are opened. 

 

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On 3/1/2018 at 10:20 PM, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

I agree with the quoted statement 100%. At the opening of the sixth seal the earth dwellers will hide because they know God's wrath is impending. The day of the Lord has come and they were caught like a thief. But, before sudden destruction comes upon them in the form of trumpet and vial judgements the Lord comes in the clouds and resurrects/raptures His own. Only after that does he pour out His wrath.

I have said all throughout my comments that the church is not appointed unto God's wrath on the day of the Lord to which you also agree. Much that you have commented back with are the very things I teach. Help me to understand where you are coming from. Please answer a few questions for me.

1) Concerning the above statement, what Scriptures tell us that the seventh seal starts the seventieth week. Please provide details with a logical progression.

2) Do you recognize Matt 24:15, 21 and Daniel 9:27 as establishing a starting point for the great tribulation, that it begins in the middle of the week? If not, why?

That's enough for now

Hallelujah

YOu see, years ago, I was just minding my own business, reading in Daniel 9:27. When my eyes and my mind got to the word "Midst" God suddenly spoke and said, "you could find that exact midpoint 'clearly marked' in the book of Revelation." I asked Him how, and He replied, "every time I mentioned an event that would start at the midpoint and continue to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time. When you find the mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the exact midpoint. In fact, you could find the entire 70th week  'clearly marked.'"

When had said that past part, He told me HOW I would find the entire week, "clearly marked" but not with words: I just suddenly knew: He used the same "marker" for the beginning, midpoint and end.  So I went to work, maybe 4 hours a day, searching for the "exact midpoint" "Clearly marked." I discovered the exact midpoint was "marked" as He said, with a 7.  It was the 7th trumpet. I flipped pages as fast as I could to read at the 7th vial. It said, "it is done." I knew then I had found what He sent me to find. Then I flipped pages even faster to find the 7th seal, and I read of the 30 minutes of silence: I knew then I had found the entire week "clearly marked." I also thought, how like God to begin this time of judgment with 30 minutes of silence. 

After reading and meditating on these things I am convinced the 70th week marked by 7's fits smoothly with all other scripture. 

So the DAY starts first, then quickly followed by the 70th week. But the 70th week ends at the 7th vial but the DAY continues on.

Rev. 12 does tell us that at the midpoint, the Dragon will turn on those who are fleeing, and try to kill them, but finding they are supernaturally protected will turn on the "remnant" of her seed, meaning all who believe in Jesus at this point in time. I am convinced the Holy Spirit chose "remnant" because the main load was caught up previous to this time. 

So it will be at the midpoint that days of tribulation begin. But it will get worse: the False prophet does not show up right at the midpoint. John shows that the man of sin turned Beast will show up first. Then, after some unknown time, the False Prophet will show up. then, the image will be created and the mark. And finally, when they are ready, the time of enforcement will begin: worship the image and take the mark, or lose your head. I personally believe those days will make the holocaust seem insignificant with the number of beheadings. 

Notice that those beheaded do not show up in heaven until chapter 15. And notice the warning not to take the mark is given in chapter 14. Therefore, the really bad days Jesus was talking about will not begin until after chapter 14 in John's narrative. 

I am further convinced that God will use the vials of His wrath to SHORTEN those days.  the 42 months are not shortened, but the days in those 42 months where the Beast and False prophet are beheading will be shortened: they will not go the entire 42 months. Near the end, they will be in terrible pain, and in total darkness for some period of time, UNABLE to hunt down people and behead them. 

I like the way you start and end your messages! I agree, Hallelujah! His word is AWESOME.

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2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I have often wondered If when John wrote "The day of His wrath has come" it he meant with the earthquake or that it was ABOUT to begin with the first Trumpet judgment. I have so far chose the earthquake, because all the signs were there. Next, I don't think the Holy Spirit was trying to trick us here. I think He included "the day of His wrath has come" because it started with the earthquake.  I think the Holy Spirit is telling us that they read the signs correctly and knew that THE DAY had started.

Well, according to the world, Gods wrath did begin, but according to the announcements in heaven, the blowing of the 7th trumpet announced Gods wrath is upon them, an announcement from the 24 Elders, which will begin with the coming bowls.  I guess it all depends if a person looks at from the worlds point of view or from Gods point of view.  The difference is not due to the Holy Spirit, but our understanding.  Revelation 11:15-19

Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying:

“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

If we study 1 thes. 5, we learn the same thing: the Sudden destruction comes the very same time as the catching up. One group of people get caught up and ESCAPE the sudden destruction, while another group of people are left behind and suffer the Sudden destruction. Then Paul tells us that this sudden destruction is the beginning of God's wrath.  Therefore we have two witnesses. 

It would be silly to believe they happen at the same time: the seals are sealing the document and said document cannot be opened to reveal the trumpet and bowl judgments until all 7 seals are opened.

Let's take a look at 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11

But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.  For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.  For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.  But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.  You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.  Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.  For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night.  But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.  For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.

It is when people begin to think they are living in peace and safety that sudden destruction comes upon them.  That will happen with the Abomination of Desolation happens, when the peace and safety is removed.  It is not until some time later when the 7th trumpet sounds and the nations of this world become Christs.  To me, that is when we will be caught up, not before.

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