Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[Eternal Call]

1 hour ago, OneLight said:

It is when people begin to think they are living in peace and safety that sudden destruction comes upon them.  That will happen with the Abomination of Desolation happens, when the peace and safety is removed.  It is not until some time later when the 7th trumpet sounds and the nations of this world become Christs.  To me, that is when we will be caught up, not before.

1

Well said. It all fits well with the 7th trumpet. They have to create an additional trumpet to fit with that false hope.

There is no basis whatsoever for PreTrib. It just doesn't make sense whatsoever. 

If we look at the New Testament alone, nothing in it even hints at there being a rapture of the church before the great tribulation. It is a nice thought but it is not happening.

There are verses in revelation showing that some who will die DURING the great tribulation will resurrect to reign with Christ. That is impossible with the theory of pre-trib because the rapture happens at the time of the first resurrection and there only two resurrections with the second one being at the end of the one thousand year reign.

Revelation 20:4 - ⁴ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

They DIED BEHEADED for the witness of Jesus (so these are not the Jews) and they did not worship the beast (great tribulation), and they lived (RESURRECTED) and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 

Can anyone answer this?

God bless 

[simplejeff]

32 minutes ago, Eternal Call said:

Can anyone answer this?

If you mean does anyone believe in error,  then yes,  multitudes do,  same as in China around 100 years ago before the slaughter - perhaps a million fell from the faith because they had been taught in error, and were not at all ready nor prepared in any way to suffer as everyone in Christ Jesus must be. 

Perhaps you remember when with a couple billion deceived ones you had believed the lies being taught you by the religious leaders ?  Praise YHVH (God) you were set free from that deception !  YES !  HALLELUYAH TO JESUS ! 

[Steve Conley]

On 3/3/2018 at 4:21 PM, iamlamad said:

YOu see, years ago, I was just minding my own business, reading in Daniel 9:27. When my eyes and my mind got to the word "Midst" God suddenly spoke and said, "you could find that exact midpoint 'clearly marked' in the book of Revelation." I asked Him how, and He replied, "every time I mentioned an event that would start at the midpoint and continue to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time. When you find the mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the exact midpoint. In fact, you could find the entire 70th week  'clearly marked.'"

When had said that past part, He told me HOW I would find the entire week, "clearly marked" but not with words: I just suddenly knew: He used the same "marker" for the beginning, midpoint and end.  So I went to work, maybe 4 hours a day, searching for the "exact midpoint" "Clearly marked." I discovered the exact midpoint was "marked" as He said, with a 7.  It was the 7th trumpet. I flipped pages as fast as I could to read at the 7th vial. It said, "it is done." I knew then I had found what He sent me to find. Then I flipped pages even faster to find the 7th seal, and I read of the 30 minutes of silence: I knew then I had found the entire week "clearly marked." I also thought, how like God to begin this time of judgment with 30 minutes of silence.

After reading and meditating on these things I am convinced the 70th week marked by 7's fits smoothly with all other scripture.

So the DAY starts first, then quickly followed by the 70th week. But the 70th week ends at the 7th vial but the DAY continues on.

Rev. 12 does tell us that at the midpoint, the Dragon will turn on those who are fleeing, and try to kill them, but finding they are supernaturally protected will turn on the "remnant" of her seed, meaning all who believe in Jesus at this point in time. I am convinced the Holy Spirit chose "remnant" because the main load was caught up previous to this time.

So it will be at the midpoint that days of tribulation begin. But it will get worse: the False prophet does not show up right at the midpoint. John shows that the man of sin turned Beast will show up first. Then, after some unknown time, the False Prophet will show up. then, the image will be created and the mark. And finally, when they are ready, the time of enforcement will begin: worship the image and take the mark, or lose your head. I personally believe those days will make the holocaust seem insignificant with the number of beheadings.

Notice that those beheaded do not show up in heaven until chapter 15. And notice the warning not to take the mark is given in chapter 14. Therefore, the really bad days Jesus was talking about will not begin until after chapter 14 in John's narrative.

I am further convinced that God will use the vials of His wrath to SHORTEN those days.  the 42 months are not shortened, but the days in those 42 months where the Beast and False prophet are beheading will be shortened: they will not go the entire 42 months. Near the end, they will be in terrible pain, and in total darkness for some period of time, UNABLE to hunt down people and behead them.

I like the way you start and end your messages! I agree, Hallelujah! His word is AWESOME.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Thank you for explaining how you came to your idea that the day of the Lord and the seventieth week both start at the seventh seal.

• It is true that great tribulation (unparalleled persecution of the church and Israel) begins in the middle of the seventieth week.
• It is true that great tribulation is the persecution of the church and Israel by the Beast, False Prophet and their followers; it is not God's tribulation upon those who had persecuted the Church and Israel.
• It is true that the seven mentions of 3 1/2 years (1260 days; 42 months; time, times, and the dividing of time) and the mention of 1290 and 1335 days all refer roughly to the second half of the seventieth week.
• It is true that Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven in the middle of the week by Michael and his angels and that Satan's disposition is said to be, "having great wrath" at that time.
• It is true that the Beast (man of sin) is revealed in the middle of the week after Michael, the restrainer, permits his revelation through the dragon (Satan) giving him power.
• It is true that the Beast after he is revealed in the middle of the week continues 42 months before he is defeated and cast alive into a lake of fire.
• It is true that the saints are given into the hand of the Beast until those who remain alive are rescued when Christ cuts short the great tribulation by His return.
• It is true that what John sees when the seven seals are opened comes before the 7 trumpet judgements, and the 7 trumpet judgements come before the 7 vial judgements.
• It is true that as the seals are opened one by one John sees various events and happenings upon the earth and in heaven which he recorded for us to know.
• It is true that no described activity of the seventieth week is said to be unparalleled until great tribulation begins in the middle of the week.
• It is true that at the opening of the fifth seal the vengeance or wrath of God has not yet fallen upon the earth dwellers.
• It is true that the return of Jesus Christ and therefore the day of the Lord, happens some time after the sixth seal is opened.
• It is true that at the opening of the sixth seal John sees the cosmic sign that Joel prophesied would come prior to the great and terrible day of the Lord.
• It is true that at the opening of the sixth seal John sees the earthdwellers (unbelieving, Beast worshipers) hiding from the impending wrath of the Lamb as described by Isaiah in chapter two of his prophecy.
• It is true that Jesus identifies this cosmic sign and says it comes immediately after the great tribulation.
• It is true that Jesus says that His return in the clouds with glory and the holy angels follows the appearance of the cosmic sign.
• It is true that at that time there shall be a gathering to Christ of all the saved involving the first resurrection.
• It is also true that the first stroke of God's wrath, upon the day of the Lord, comes after the seventh seal is opened, there is a half hour of silence in heaven, and the first trumpet is blown.
• It is true that the church will not experience the wrath of God but will be taken from the earth before it is poured out.
• It is true that God's wrath falls suddenly upon the earthdwellers (unbelieving, Beast worshipers) the very day that the church is raptured.
• It is true that the church finds rest from persecution the very day that God's wrath falls upon their persecutors.
• It is true that the church including the saints who experienced great tribulation are seen in heaven before the throne of God having been resurrected and raptured in Rev 7:9-17.

There are many ways to demonstrate that the great tribulation starts in the middle of the week and the day of the Lord only begins after those believers who are alive and remain are raptured out at Christ's second coming. Find two below.

1) Jesus states clearly that great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation takes place, and Daniel tells us that the abomination of desolation happens in the middle of the week.

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

2) Paul says that the falling away (a notable departure from the faith) and the revelation of the man of sin in the temple must happen before the day of Christ can come.

The day of Christ from verse two and three below is further defined in verse one. It is the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him. It is Christ's singular second coming with emphasis upon His interaction with his Church. The day of the Lord is Christ's singular second coming with emphasis upon His interaction with the world. Both days begin at His singular second coming (parousia = His return and continuing presence).

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Before the wrath of God on the day of the Lord can begin the revelation of the Beast and the apostasia must take place.

Hallelujah

The End of the Age Diagram March 2018 PDF.pdf

[WilliamL]

On 2/27/2018 at 7:28 AM, iamlamad said:

I agree with you that Isaiah 2 points straight to the 6th seal event that John wrote of. Using Isaiah and Joel 2, anyone could tell but those events that THE DAY has started. That is why the Holy Spirit had John write, "the day of His wrath has come." 

However, we also know that God will come and get us BEFORE His wrath begins. That means the rapture of the church must come before the 6th seal.

Faulty logic. The Rapture takes place in the twinkling of an eye, at the time of the 6th Seal, and the Wrath begins immediately afterward for all those who have remained upon earth. By the time those of Rev. 6:16 are able to overcome their terror enough to say --

"to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

-- the Church has already ascended, on the very same day. That  is what Rev. 1:7 indicates:

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.

The Lord comes in the clouds, every eye sees him at the same time, living and dead, the elect immediately ascend to him, and the rest of mankind mourns and wails -- all on the same day. Then the Wrath begins, and takes place in stages: first the 3-1/2 times of the judgment of the earthly Remnant of Jacob during the Trumpets, and lastly the judgment of the heathen nations during the Bowls.

All explained in more detail in my earlier blog posts.

On 2/27/2018 at 7:59 AM, iamlamad said:

"First" as in the "first resurrection" is better translated as "chief" or "primary" as it is not the first in sequence. Jesus was the first in sequence. He was the first of the primary resurrection that is the only resurrection for the just. 

The dead in Christ will be the next wave of that "primary resurrection." Next will be the two witnesses and all the Old Testament saints along with those beheaded and/or put to death for their testimony during the week. 

Therefore, one cannot establish any kind of "timing" by the word "first." It is not first in sequence, but first in priority. 

So what is the "timing" of the first or primary resurrection? It began with Jesus, and will continue in the future with the church and then with the Old Testament saints.

You nailed it. This is generally misunderstood.

On 2/27/2018 at 2:15 PM, iamlamad said:

You have missed the intent of scriptures: Jesus will come twice more, not once. 

Sort of. Jesus will appear in the clouds to take up His elect, then -- much later -- descend to fight against the Rev. 19 nations on earth. However, during the intervening years, he will also be actively shepherding his people of earthly Israel. See my latest blog post, "When Does the Lord Smite Edom?"

So to put it I think more accurately, Jesus' Coming will be continuous, not discontinuous, with intermittent interactions with earthly Israel: just as when the LORD descended upon Mount Sinai, and his Presence then continued to dwell and interact intermittently with his people up until Israel's ultimate battle with the nations assembled against them some 40+ years later.

[WilliamL]

On 3/3/2018 at 6:41 PM, Eternal Call said:

They DIED BEHEADED for the witness of Jesus (so these are not the Jews) and they did not worship the beast (great tribulation), and they lived (RESURRECTED) and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 

Can anyone answer this?

They are certainly both Jews and Gentiles here, those who came to faith After the Tribulation, which ends at the 6th Seal:

Matt. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

REv. 6:12-13 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth...

At the 6th Seal, everyone sees the Face of Jesus, which is why the heathen say, "Hide us from the Face..." But when the Jews see the face, many of them become believers in Jesus and become witnesses thereafter -- although it is too late for them to be taken up in the Rapture, because 'they were not ready.'  Matt. 25:10

Zech 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. [In other words, they repent of their rejection of Jesus as their Messiah.]

Rev. 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.

The Beast comes after the Tribulation has already come and gone: the Beast ascends during the Wrath. This is why this topic is called Post-Trib, Pre-Wrath.

Edited March 8, 2018 by WilliamL

[Steve Conley]

On 3/8/2018 at 4:13 PM, WilliamL said:

They are certainly both Jews and Gentiles here, those who came to faith After the Tribulation, which ends at the 6th Seal:

Matt. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

REv. 6:12-13 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth...

At the 6th Seal, everyone sees the Face of Jesus, which is why the heathen say, "Hide us from the Face..." But when the Jews see the face, many of them become believers in Jesus and become witnesses thereafter -- although it is too late for them to be taken up in the Rapture, because 'they were not ready.'  Matt. 25:10

Zech 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. [In other words, they repent of their rejection of Jesus as their Messiah.]

Rev. 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.

The Beast comes after the Tribulation has already come and gone: the Beast ascends during the Wrath. This is why this topic is called Post-Trib, Pre-Wrath.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

WilliamL, there were a few things that you said that you might need to correct.

1) Concerning, those that were beheaded who shall reign with Christ for 1000 years, nothing is said about them coming to faith during the great tribulation. All that is communicated is that they were martyred in that period. The testimony of the Scriptures is that the great tribulation will be marked by apostasia (a departure from the faith) not revival. It is characterized by great deception and "professors" being offended and falling away when persecution comes.

2) You said "The Beast comes after the Tribulation has already come and gone: the Beast ascends during the Wrath". I'm very familiar with the pre, mid, post, and pre-wrath  models and I have no idea where that statement comes from. It is the revelation of the Beast that initiates the unprecedented persecution Jesus called great tribulation. The revelation of the Beast in the rebuilt temple causes the sacrifice and oblation to cease. That is what Jesus called the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. So, no, the Beast doesn't come after the great tribulation, nor does he ascend during the wrath. The great trib begins in the middle of the week, when the Beast's 42 months begins. The Beast continues for 42 months before he is cast alive into a lake of fire, but the period of unprecedented persecution is cut short by the removal of the saints, in the rapture, at some point in the second half of the week.

Both the post-trib and pre-wrath eschatological models have specific tenets that define them. They cannot be mixed, they are distinct from each other. I'm not saying that there are not tenets that they have in common. In fact the pre-rath model is a synthesis of all that is true about the pre, mid, and post tribulational models.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord of Lords and King of Kings, our Saviour, Jesus Christ.

[Steve Conley]

On 6/12/2015 at 2:00 PM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Odd, I always thought of the pre-wrath as a nuanced post-trib position, although I did have a book once that detailed it as a nuanced pre-trib position. Is the term pre-wrath copyrighted or is there an official Pre-Wrath Association which can define it? Hard to defend something if once doesn't even know the position's specifics.

According to the great theology site Wikipedia:

 

The Prewrath rapture is one of several premillennial views on the end-times events among evangelical Christians, and states that Christians will be raptured at the end of a time called the Beginning of Sorrows that occurs in the first half of the seventieth week of the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks, and before the day of the Lord's wrath (God's wrath). The prewrath position emphasizes the biblical distinction between tribulation (which Christians have been promised) and the wrath of God (which Christians have been promised deliverance/salvation from).

According to the Prewrath perspective, the great tribulation begins 3.5 years after the Antichrist "makes a covenant with the many" (Daniel 9:27), in the middle of "Daniel's 70th week." The 70th week is a reference to Daniel 9:24, where each day of the week corresponds to a year (for a total of seven years). After the first 3.5 years, the Antichrist will make himself known with the abomination that causes desolation, and he will reign for 3.5 years (42 months or 1260 days). The latter half of the 3.5 years is characterized by the Antichrist deceiving the world and persecuting the church.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

The Wikipedia article that you posted is so wrong, it sounds like a pretribulationist wrote it. I haven't yet heard a single pre-tribber who can accurately define this simplest of eschatological models, which is pre-wrath.

I apologize if others have cleared this up already.

Hallelujah

[WilliamL]

On 6/8/2018 at 6:07 PM, Steve Conley said:

WilliamL, there were a few things that you said that you might need to correct.

1) Concerning, those that were beheaded who shall reign with Christ for 1000 years, nothing is said about them coming to faith during the great tribulation. All that is communicated is that they were martyred in that period. The testimony of the Scriptures is that the great tribulation will be marked by apostasia (a departure from the faith) not revival. It is characterized by great deception and "professors" being offended and falling away when persecution comes.

"...those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands..." Rev. 20:4  These are the saints who came to faith AFTER the Great Tribulation, and were martyred. The Beast kingdom does not arise until AFTER the Trib.

So nothing to correct here from my former statement.

On 6/8/2018 at 6:07 PM, Steve Conley said:

2) You said "The Beast comes after the Tribulation has already come and gone: the Beast ascends during the Wrath". I'm very familiar with the pre, mid, post, and pre-wrath  models and I have no idea where that statement comes from. It is the revelation of the Beast that initiates the unprecedented persecution Jesus called great tribulation. The revelation of the Beast in the rebuilt temple causes the sacrifice and oblation to cease. That is what Jesus called the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. So, no, the Beast doesn't come after the great tribulation, nor does he ascend during the wrath. The great trib begins in the middle of the week, when the Beast's 42 months begins. The Beast continues for 42 months before he is cast alive into a lake of fire, but the period of unprecedented persecution is cut short by the removal of the saints, in the rapture, at some point in the second half of the week.

NOTHING in the scriptures says the Beast comes during the Trib. Nothing at all. People have formed all kinds of theories to try to make that case, but they are all rationalizations based largely upon a misunderstanding of Dan. 9:26-27.

The Great Tribulation ends at the 6th Seal. The Beast does not arise until afterward, during the Wrath. Nothing says the Beast sits in any rebuilt Temple, causing sacrifice and oblation to cease.

There is no "middle of the week," because there is no End Time week. That is pure spec based upon the common misreading of Daniel 9:27 ALONE: NO OTHER SCRIPTURE HINTS AT ANY SUCH TIME PERIOD FOR THE TRIB.

You cannot begin to provide two witnesses, required for all biblical proofs, for a 7-year Trib.

You need to throw out all your charts and diagrams, all influenced by what you have read others say, and go back to the basics of what you can actually prove out of the scriptures.

Or, you can read some of my early blog posts, which DO provide multiple scriptural witness in agreement. Such as:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/842-the-kingdoms-of-solomon-and-jesus-christ/

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/840-the-last-shofar-the-latter-horn-of-redemption/

Suggest you print them out, because the online format is a bit hard to read, and there is much included that will take time to study out.

Blessings, William

Edited June 11, 2018 by WilliamL

[Steve Conley]

On 6/11/2018 at 12:31 PM, WilliamL said:

You need to throw out all your charts and diagrams, all influenced by what you have read others say, and go back to the basics of what you can actually prove out of the scriptures.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

WilliamL, nearly 3 years ago I began to do exactly what you said. I had believed the pre-trib rapture model for 40 years and taught it for 30. It was Joel 2:31 that forced me to decide between what God's Word says and what I was very familiar with and taught. It forced me to understand that the eschatological wrath of God which comes on the day of the Lord must take place after the great tribulation. I realized at that point that the Scriptures, which I thought prevented the church from being here during the great tribulation, didn't apply to the great tribulation at all. The wrath that we are said to not be appointed unto in 1Thes 5:9, in context, is the wrath that begins to fall suddenly on day of the Lord from verse 2 of the same chapter.

That initial collision with the truth of Joel 2:31 started me down the road which has found me only using explicit statements of the Scriptures as a foundation and framework for my eschatological model. I have found that this Biblical foundation and framework fits very well with what, in recent history, has come to be known as the pre-wrath rapture model. Do recognize that there might be some small differences among those who hold this model. Pre-wrath is consistent with the historic belief of the churches that they would see the antichrist and experience unprecedented persecution (great tribulation) before Christ would return to gather us unto himself. It is also consistent with the belief of an any day return of Christ, once the Antichrist has been revealed and a notable falling away occurs (the falling away is the result of the unprecedented persecution and great deception). The historic writings of the saints that expressed an air of any-dayism, was due to the fact that they thought the antichrist was on the scene and that the persecution that they were experiencing was the great tribulation.

How about you William, are you willing to do what I have already done.

An examination of the following verses will yield that the great tribulation is not the day of the Lord and therefore not the wrath of God that we are said to not be appointed unto.

Joel 2:31; Rev 6:12-17; Isa 2:19; Isa 13:6-11; Matt 24:21, 29-31; 2Thes 1:6-10; Luke 17:26-30

Hallelujah

 

Edited June 22, 2018 by Steve Conley

[Steve Conley]

2 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

 

Steve, your materialistic doctrine that you are announcing here "The Cosmic Sign" is a black hole. Remember: Material things are pictures of spiritual things. The parables of JESUS are a proof of this. There will not be any material cosmic signal, as you are prophesying, this is not true. What you mean by your materialistic doctrine about the signs in the sky can be turned into truth if you turn the figures of Scriptures into a spiritual language.

So try to re-do your post by interpreting the figures spiritually, exclusively, for the interpretation of Scripture by the letter is mortal, only the Spirit gives life. The Word is God, you know? Yea, The Word is Spirit, God who is the Word is Spirit. You already know that the letter kills, reason by which I stated your materialist doctrine of "The Cosmic Signs" is an authentic black hole, only the Spirit gives life.

Thanks

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Oseas, you have got to be kidding. When one begins to "spiritualize" the clear words of the Prophets, Christ, and the Apostles they make them to mean anything they want. What you are doing has nothing to do with the Spirit of God. However, the idea that you present is likely "spiritual" because many false doctrines are said to come from demons, and they are spiritual beings. Whoever taught you this foolishness you need to put away from you.

The Scriptures were given in the common language of the Israelites, and the common language of the Greek speaking world, with a little Aramaic thrown in. The Scriptures reflect the common usage and meanings of the words used therein. What you present is some mystical "spiritualization" of these words. Such is more consistent with the antichrist, hidden knowledge, of the Gnostics. The proper hermeneutic is a literal interpretation of the texts. Only when the text is intended to be symbolism, allegory, metaphor, etc., which is common in the use of all language, do we set aside the literal understanding of it. In such cases there is clear indication within the text, that the Author intended an other than literal meaning. The texts that you make reference to have no such indication.

The so-called "spiritualization" of a text is not the faithful exegesis of it. "Spiritualization" is the co-opting of a text for one's own purpose. The faithful preacher will work to present the text with the meaning that the Author intended to the original recipients.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto Jesus Christ our Lord