Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[Steve Conley]

On 6/15/2018 at 11:39 PM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Absolutely, when I said your doctrine is a black hole was an analogy with the most dark and deep abyss, where Satan will be cast and chained, even in this time of Apocalypse.  Your post has nothing with the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. You are using His name in vain.
 

You are not saying anything. What says the Word of God: If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. By your own words you confess have not the Spirit of God. JESUS said: The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. The true believers are not are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.  The true believers are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in them. 

You shoud know that it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments. Prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

You are wrong, and lying, and denyng the Word of God, as does the spirit of Antichrist. What you said above is not true, it is the spirit of Antichrist. Persons, like you, without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. What man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? Even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God. The true believers have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that they might know the things that are freely given from God, which things also preached not in the words which man’s wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches. He who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth.  

What you are saying has nothing to do with the Spirit of Christ.  You are saying that by an evil spirit.  You lie again. Spirit of God means Spirit of the Word. The Word is God. God is a title. The Word is a Person, He is God the Father. There are three that bear witness in heaven (heaven is not the Cosmic or physical Space(sky): yea, there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, and the Word (the Word made flesh), and the Holy Spirit; and these three ARE One. And there are three that bear witness on Earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree AS one.
 

Reading the lies that you wrote in your message above, as well in all messages from you, no doubt that Satan has his messengers not only to sow his satanic tares among the believers, as you do, but also to deny the Holy Scriptures. All the readers of this forum may know that many false doctrines are spoken by demons as seen in your posts really, in truth the demons are spiritual beings, however it is not a great thing if the ministers of Satan be transformed as the ministers of righteousness as their satanic father, the own Satan, whose end shall be according to their works.
 

As was written in the previous post, by allegory your doctrine is like a black hole, as the blackness of the darkness, preached through wandering stars, which have not the Spirit of God, but an evil spirit, spirit of demon, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. 
 

From you the messages here are like clouds without water, it is like trees whose fruit witheres or even trees without fruit, trees twice dead, plucked up by the roots.  Even like the fig tree in the way, in which was found nothing, but leaves only, and it withered away for ever. 
 

Oh! You are not saying this by the Spirit of Christ, but through mere letters, it is a dissimulate behavior.  JESUS left very very clear: John4:v.24 - God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.  

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Osaes, the disciples asked Jesus what sign would signal His parousia.

Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Jesus answered the disciples' question. In doing so he mentioned some events that would precede His arrival at His parousia. Some are of supernatural origin and some are the actions of men. One of them is the darkening of the sun, moon, and stars which Joel said precedes the day of the Lord.

Joe 2:30  And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Another is the abomination of desolation Jesus spoke of. It is the defiling of the temple by the man of sin, which Paul says must take place before the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him.

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Jesus spoke of the unprecedented persecution that would come right before His return.

Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10  And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

He also spoke of the great deception, even great signs and wonders done by the false prophets.

Mat 24:4  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Mat 24:11  And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Jesus referred to many signs of His parousia. They are all literal events that are easily recognizable. Your problem is with Jesus and His words.

I love my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. I hear my Saviour's voice and follow Him. Your ramblings are not from my Lord Jesus Christ and your curses, let them be upon your own head.

1Co 16:22  If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

 

 

 

[WilliamL]

On 6/13/2018 at 7:41 PM, Steve Conley said:

... nearly 3 years ago I began to do exactly what you said.  How about you William, are you willing to do what I have already done.

William: I never was a pretribber, saw too many holes in Hal Lindsey's Late Great when I read it in 1973. Became a "post-trib, pre-wrather" in 1987 on my own understanding (coined the term myself, before I ever heard anyone else use it). However, I did not really comprehend its implications until 2003, when the Lord showed me how the whole End Times scenario is written in types and shadows in  the events of BOTH the Exodus AND the events of the ascent of Solomon (the other "Prince of Peace") to his throne: two Witnesses, required by scripture.

... Do recognize that there might be some small differences among those who hold this model.

Agreed. However, we are far apart in very many things. You have taken the same general course as Marven Rosenthal, author of The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church, who also came out of pre-tribism, but kept most of the same old pre-trib teachings about a 7-year span for the End Times, divided into two parts. All of which I came to understand is also baloney, without any solid scriptural foundation. You have not addressed this subject, which was the main issue I raised in my original post.

I also suggest you read my blog post "The Antichrist" Myth, because you still follow many unproven and unprovable teachings about this subject. Found here:

 

 

[George]

Let's be careful and not get personal!    It's what gets people removed from threads.  Don't call each other out and debate the subject. 

[enoob57]

I think I can take ya today George... make your move pardner

[Steve Conley]

5 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

 

Oh yes, all these signs revealed by the Lord Jesus will preceed His next coming. From this side I can see you looking to these biblical texts through the letters that describe the signs revealed by the Lord, and simultaneously your brain imagery portraying the picture of your infinite cosmic physical world, and its black holes. 

Firstly you know not what is heaven.

By the way, the Word (God) created several heavens, and the heavens (two of them) which are now, by the same Word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against THIS Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Get ready, certainly you will be burned in the heaven in which you will be there.

 

Also, you know nothing concerning the Sun, and Moon, and Stars . In fact, it is they that dress, and adorn and give support to the woman, as is revealed by JESUS in Revelation 12: v. 1. 

By the way, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, the 12 Stars shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. This is a good clue for you to understand better concerning the Sun and Moon.

 

I return latter.

 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Osaes, there is nothing symbolic about the darkening of the sun, moon, and stars in Matt 24:29 like there is symbolism in Rev 12. In Rev 12 the red dragon is Satan. The woman is Israel and the child caught up to God is Christ.

Hallelujah

[Steve Conley]

On 6/23/2018 at 12:28 AM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Concerning the Abomination of Desolation (Mat.24:v.15 & 2Thes. 2:v.4) :  When you  therefore shall see the abomination of desolation in the holy place (Mat.24:15), i.e. enthroned in the temple of Jerusalém ... (2Thes. 2:v.4) 

The Abomination of Desolation will be established and will rule the Antichrist's Empire in the second period of 42 months or 1260 days. The FIRST period of 42 months will be ruled by the ancient FIRST Beast which did rise out of the sea(waters), that is the  Pope, upon whom rides the Great Whore, the Roman Catholic Church, as is revealed and written in Revelation 13:v.5-6:
5 And there was given unto the Beast a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell IN HEAVEN (heaven is not the cosmic space of Universe as you interpret erroneously, Steve.)

The satanic Beast knows that in the Cosmic space there is no any dweller. Only you Steve, and they who are like you think that heaven is a cosmic environment, and that the signs that were cited by the Lord JESUS will occur in the cosmic space. Thats is a lie. 
Steve, you interpret Scriptures in the way the Devil likes. 

In accord the book of REVELATION, there will be two BEASTS reigning in whole earth in this end of time, the time of APOCALYPSE. One of them is the false messiah of the Jews, the Abomination of Desolation (the satanic Red Dragon), and he will rule the Antichrist's Empire in the second period of Great Tribulation once enthroned in the temple of Jerusalem, the Holy Place. Abomination is that which is abominable, odious, heinous, infamous, nefarious, hateful, filthy, atrocious, cruel, bestial, accursed.  

With the manifestation of the second Beast in Israel very very soon (Rev.13:11-18), the son of perdition and man of sin, who is a false messiah of the Jews, by the way, an imposter, then the Holy Place will be a wordly profane place under the dominion of Satan (2Thes,2:9-12). Then will be established the satanic power of the Abomination of Desolation. There will be total  desolation. The prophet Ezekiel calls him profane wicked prince of Israel, whose Day is come(Day of the Lord, the Last  Millennium), when iniquity shall have an end.  

Be prepared. Get ready, because the time of manifestation of God's wrath has arrived. God is a title, the Word is God. 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Osaes, you are deceived. Don't think for a moment that when you present Scripture quotations coupled with your twisted thinking that anyone here is believing your foolishness. Satan, from the day he said "Yea hath God said..." has been misusing the words of God. What you are doing is no different. I love the Holy Scriptures, and my Lord, Jesus Christ. I know He loves me, and I hear His voice. I have nothing to fear from your imprecations. On the other hand, you need to repent so that your curses are not imputed to you.

1Co 16:22  If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

[Steve Conley]

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

The pre-wrath model for the timing of the rapture has many essential tenants. Some of them are stated below.

Those who hold the Pre-Wrath position believe:

·        The church is not appointed unto God's wrath on the day of the Lord.

·        The church and the elect in Matt 24 are one and the same.

·        The "great tribulation" is not God's wrath upon the earth dwellers, it is Satan’s wrath upon the saints of God.

·        The church will see the Antichrist and go through the "great tribulation."

·        The "great tribulation" begins three and a half years into the seventieth week.

·        The "great tribulation" corresponds to what John sees at the opening of the 4th and 5th seals.

·        The "great tribulation" is shortened to save some of the elect alive.

·        The "great tribulation" is shortened by the arrival of Jesus Christ initiating the day of the Lord.

·        What John sees at the opening of the 6th seal is the earth-dwellers reaction to Christ's revelation at His arrival.

·        The arrival of Christ initiating the day of the LORD is portended by a great earthquake and the sun, moon, and stars going dark.

·        At Christ's arrival, the church is raptured before God's wrath begins to be poured out upon the earth dwellers.

·        The day of the rapture and Christ's arrival at the singular second coming (parousia) are one and the same.

·        The day of our deliverance will be the day that God begins to tribulate our persecutors.

·        God's eschatological wrath begins to fall upon our persecutors at the blowing of the first trumpet.

Hallelujah

[WilliamL]

On 7/23/2018 at 6:39 PM, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

The pre-wrath model for the timing of the rapture has many essential tenants. Some of them are stated below.

Those who hold the Pre-Wrath position believe:

·       ... The church will see the Antichrist ...

·        The "great tribulation" begins three and a half years into the seventieth week.

·        The "great tribulation" corresponds to what John sees at the opening of the 4th and 5th seals.

Agree with most of your post, but not the above. These are YOUR "essential tenets," but not those of everyone who holds the post-trib, pre-wrath, 6th seal doctrine.

The church will see the Son of Perdition, who is an antichrist, but who is not the Beast. The Beast only arises out of the Abyss after it is opened at the 5th Trumpet, during the wrath. The Son of Perdition is destroyed at the Coming of Jesus, which begins the Wrath. 2 Thes 2:8 tells us this.

The 70th week took place during the Jewish War of 66-73 A.D.

The Great Tribulation begins at the first seal.

[Steve Conley]

On 7/25/2018 at 4:44 PM, WilliamL said:

Agree with most of your post, but not the above. These are YOUR "essential tenets," but not those of everyone who holds the post-trib, pre-wrath, 6th seal doctrine.

The church will see the Son of Perdition, who is an antichrist, but who is not the Beast. The Beast only arises out of the Abyss after it is opened at the 5th Trumpet, during the wrath. The Son of Perdition is destroyed at the Coming of Jesus, which begins the Wrath. 2 Thes 2:8 tells us this.

The 70th week took place during the Jewish War of 66-73 A.D.

The Great Tribulation begins at the first seal.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

WilliamL, many can call themselves pre-wrath, but believe different than that which was originally presented as tenants of that system. Just as there are literally hundreds of variations on that which is called pre-tribulationism and dozens on that which is called post-tribulationism, so also there are many variations of the pre-wrath model. However, to say that you believe in the "pre-wrath" model of the rapture of the church you must ascribe to the tenants that I have posted. Otherwise, you have come up with your own model for the timing of the rapture and the title "Pre-wrath" has already been taken.

Hallelujah

[Still Alive]

On ‎6‎/‎9‎/‎2015 at 3:34 AM, George said:

Hello saints,

 

As I was going over this forum, it occurred to me that there's another position that isn't listed -- the "Pre-Wrath" position which is closely associated with the Mid-Tribulation position with a few nuances.

 

If you are a post-tribulation / pre-wrath advocate, use this thread to defend your position.

 

Your brother in the Lord with much agape love,

 

George

 

 

I just use the beginning of Revelation 7, right after the 144k are sealed. But I'm not married to any position on this. I figure we'll know it when we see it. But I'm prepared to go through the same kind of hell on earth that most of the apostles went through. i.e. I'm becoming prepared.

 

FWIW, I was originally pre-trib when I was a new Christian (1981). I immediately became a fanatic on bible prophesy and turned to this position after a year or so.