Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[OldCoot]

Well, it can be reasoned that the wrath begins at the first seal.  The events of those seals do not happen until they are opened, and it is by Yeshua's hand that they are opened.  They would not happen unless He did.  Kind of a exercise in deductive reasoning.

Also, the 24 Elders are present when Yeshua is handed the scroll with the seals.  Let's break that down a little.

David, in 1 Chronicles 24, divided the priests into 24 divisions.  That set the precedent.

According to Peter, we are a royal priesthood.  1 Peter 2:9.  The 24 Elders in Revelation claim they are kings and priests (royal priesthood) and they have been redeemed from all the nations, and will rule an reign with Messiah, just as Revelation 2:25-27 states.

Revelation 5:9-10 (NKJV) And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.

I am not sure how one could not see that the 24 Elders are claiming to the redeemed, aka the Church.

There were saints prior to the Church, as seen in Matthew 27, which many early Church writers claim were taken to the Father by Yeshua.  The Church is made up of saints.  And there will be saints after the Church is removed.  All are saints by the redemptive work of Yeshua, but not all are of the same group. They are equal, but different.  To use another analogy... everyone in the U.S. Marine Corps is a Marine.  But not all Marines are officers, not all are non commissioned officers, etc.  They are all Marines, they became Marines in the same way, but they are divided into groups.

No one should get their panties in a wad over these issues.  They are not a condition of salvation.  There are differing views on what the scriptures say regarding the end time events and we can throw ideas around in a friendly manner without any animosity.  

 

Edited July 27, 2018 by OldCoot

[Steve Conley]

9 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Well, it can be reasoned that the wrath begins at the first seal.  The events of those seals do not happen until they are opened, and it is by Yeshua's hand that they are opened.  They would not happen unless He did.  Kind of a exercise in deductive reasoning.

Also, the 24 Elders are present when Yeshua is handed the scroll with the seals.  Let's break that down a little.

David, in 1 Chronicles 24, divided the priests into 24 divisions.  That set the precedent.

According to Peter, we are a royal priesthood.  1 Peter 2:9.  The 24 Elders in Revelation claim they are kings and priests (royal priesthood) and they have been redeemed from all the nations, and will rule an reign with Messiah, just as Revelation 2:25-27 states.

Revelation 5:9-10 (NKJV) And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.

I am not sure how one could not see that the 24 Elders are claiming to the redeemed, aka the Church.

There were saints prior to the Church, as seen in Matthew 27, which many early Church writers claim were taken to the Father by Yeshua.  The Church is made up of saints.  And there will be saints after the Church is removed.  All are saints by the redemptive work of Yeshua, but not all are of the same group. They are equal, but different.  To use another analogy... everyone in the U.S. Marine Corps is a Marine.  But not all Marines are officers, not all are non commissioned officers, etc.  They are all Marines, they became Marines in the same way, but they are divided into groups.

No one should get their panties in a wad over these issues.  They are not a condition of salvation.  There are differing views on what the scriptures say regarding the end time events and we can throw ideas around in a friendly manner without any animosity.  

 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

OC, here are three good reasons to conclude that what John sees when Christ opens the first six seals is not the wrath of God.

1) No wrath executed yet at the opening of the fifth seal

The seals are in sequential order, 1-7. That would mean that seals 1, 2, 3, and 4, come before, that is prior to (I must explain the word "before" because some pre-tribbers are challenged when it comes to understanding the meaning of the word),  seal #5. What John sees at the opening of the 5th seal is quite a bit different than that which he describes seeing at the opening of seals 1-4 and 6. He sees martyred saints in heaven under the altar. They are crying out to God for their violent deaths, for His name's sake, to be avenged. They died as martyrs and they expect God to deal justice unto their persecutors. Jesus spoke of such a scenario associated with His coming.

Luk 18:7  And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Luk 18:8  I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

The answer the martyrs receive is that they will have to wait a little season for their murders to be avenged. So, at the opening of the 5th seal, God's wrath upon the persecutors of the saints is yet a little season away. At Christ's coming God's fierce wrath is going to fall upon the earth dwellers who will have been persecuting the church. Paul makes this truth clear when he encourages the persecuted Thessalonians.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

When Christ arrives the tables will be turned. Those who had been busy persecuting (thlipsis) us who are Christ's, will be tribulated by God with the judgements of the day of the Lord. The vengeance that they were crying out for will be realized on that day. That is consistent with Christ's teaching that the day of our rescue will be the day that He pours out His wrath upon the wicked.

Luk 17:26  And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

God's wrath will not fall until we are rescued. Those under the altar are told that before God will avenge them more of their brethren must die as martyrs. We see in Rev 6:9-11 reference to both the unprecedented persecution (great tribulation) suffered by the elect (the martyrs) and the wrath of God (vengeance) in the day of the Lord.

2) The day of the Lord cannot come until after the cosmic sign John sees at the opening of the sixth seal

The theme of vengeance is closely associated with the day of the Lord. In fact, God's eschatological wrath is the primary theme of the day of the Lord. It is important to realize that God's wrath or vengeance falls in the day of the Lord. The beginning of the day of the Lord is the period of Christ's eschatological wrath. God's wrath and the day of the Lord are synonymous with each other.

How does this let us know that what John sees at the opening of the first six seals is not God's wrath? God's wrath cannot fall upon the wicked until the day of the Lord begins. The Scriptures are very explicit concerning when the day of the Lord begins. There are a number of things that are said must take place before the day of the Lord can come. We only need look at one of them to conclude that the seals are not the wrath of God.

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Joel's prophecy says that an easily identifiable cosmic sign must come prior to the day of the Lord. We know that the word "before" is referring to before in the sense of time, not location, because when Peter quotes Joel as recorded in Greek by Luke the word prin is used which never means "in the face of". Prin means prior to.

Prior to the day of the Lord, the cosmic sign that Joel spoke of must take place. It just so happens that John sees that very sign when the 6th seal is opened.

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The day of the Lord cannot begin until after the cosmic sign that John sees at the opening of the sixth seal. Therefore, what John sees at the opening of the first 6 seals are not God's wrath.

3) The first mention of God's wrath in the book of Revelation is after the sixth seal is opened

It doesn't take a doctorate in any Biblical discipline to see that the wrath of God cannot fall until after the sixth seal is opened. In fact, it is later the very same day that the first trumpet is blown and the salvos of God's wrath begins to fall. But praise be unto Jesus that we are not appointed unto wrath, for we shall be raptured first.

Hallelujah

[OldCoot]

Steve, I can dig where you are coming from. It is a reasonable assumption.  We may differ on technicalities of how the seals go down and what is considered the "wrath" start point.  It really only seems to be an issue for those who are still here.  I plan on not being around to all these events transpire.  Call it a hope.

The issue still remains though regarding the 24 Elders.  They are right there when Yeshua is handed the scroll, before any seals are opened.   No escaping that one.  So then it comes down to who the 24 Elders are.  They claim who they are in Revelation 5:9-10, and it lines up perfectly with who the righteous are.  And the precedence for a division of 24 was established by King David.  So it would seem there is ample evidence in view that these 24 Elders are the removed righteous.  And factoring in what those Elders say in the song they sing, and factoring in the comments of Yeshua in Revelation 2:26-29, it is very plausible that these 24 Elders are the removed Church.  If it sounds like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, then it is probably a duck.

There a many good scholars on all sides of these issues.  The one area that gets scratched superficially at best is regarding the 24 Elders.  And they are a focal point when the scroll is handed to Yeshua.

Grace to you, Steve.

Cliff

Edited July 28, 2018 by OldCoot

[Uriah]

9 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Steve, I can dig where you are coming from. It is a reasonable assumption.  We may differ on technicalities of how the seals go down and what is considered the "wrath" start point.  It really only seems to be an issue for those who are still here.  I plan on not being around to all these events transpire.  Call it a hope.

The issue still remains though regarding the 24 Elders.  They are right there when Yeshua is handed the scroll, before any seals are opened.   No escaping that one.  So then it comes down to who the 24 Elders are.  They claim who they are in Revelation 5:9-10, and it lines up perfectly with who the righteous are.  And the precedence for a division of 24 was established by King David.  So it would seem there is ample evidence in view that these 24 Elders are the removed righteous.  And factoring in what those Elders say in the song they sing, and factoring in the comments of Yeshua in Revelation 2:26-29, it is very plausible that these 24 Elders are the removed Church.  If it sounds like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, then it is probably a duck.

There a many good scholars on all sides of these issues.  The one area that gets scratched superficially at best is regarding the 24 Elders.  And they are a focal point when the scroll is handed to Yeshua.

Grace to you, Steve.

Cliff

Many post trib folks see them as a class of angels who sit before the throne. This corresponds with  what we see in 1 Chron. 24:7-19.  An assembly of servants in the Temple of God. Moses was told to make everything in the temple after the pattern he saw in heave. This would be the same.

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Uriah said:

Many post trib folks see them as a class of angels who sit before the throne. This corresponds with  what we see in 1 Chron. 24:7-19.  An assembly of servants in the Temple of God. Moses was told to make everything in the temple after the pattern he saw in heave. This would be the same.

I suppose one could see the resemblance.  While Moses was told to fashion the earthly Tabernacle after the one in Heaven, it was David who divided the Priests into 24 divisions.   The Elders say who they are, so what any of us speculate really is of little consequence.  I am not sure that Angels fall in to the classification of "redeemed from among the nations" as the Elders lay claim to.   And it would be a quite a stretch to think that Yeshua redeemed the angels by His blood shed.  Call me a little crazy, but I thought Yeshua's blood was shed for mankind.

Any that might think these 24 Elders are angels, see if this sounds like angels are in view.....

Revelation 5:9-10 (NKJV) And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.

Edited July 28, 2018 by OldCoot

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, OldCoot said:

I suppose one could see the resemblance.  While Moses was told to fashion the earthly Tabernacle after the one in Heaven, it was David who divided the Priests into 24 divisions.   The Elders say who they are, so what any of us speculate really is of little consequence.  I am not sure that Angels fall in to the classification of "redeemed from among the nations" as the Elders lay claim to.   And it would be a quite a stretch to think that Yeshua redeemed the angels by His blood shed.  Call me a little crazy, but I thought Yeshua's blood was shed for mankind.

Any that might think these 24 Elders are angels, see if this sounds like angels are in view.....

Revelation 5:9-10 (NKJV) And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.

If you hold to the "us" interpretation then who are the redeemed 4 beasts?

 

[OldCoot]

20 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

If you hold to the "us" interpretation then who are the redeemed 4 beasts?

 

Help me out here, where do the four creatures who surround the throne claim to be redeemed from among the nations like the Elders do?  

Edited July 28, 2018 by OldCoot

[Uriah]

12 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

Help me out here, where do the four creatures who surround the throne claim to be redeemed from among the nations like the Elders do?  

The majority of translations do not use "us". The 4 creatures are included in the same sentence "they" all are included in this action as well as that of falling down to worship. Moreover the 24 are just that number, they would be dishonest to say they are from all nations etc. Then there is the problematic "tribulation saints". They don't get included in the "great Day" shown here. Paul describes this scenario in Phil. 2:10- That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

So if the so called "trib saints" aren't included in EVERYTHING in the Gospel (and how could those who believe the same tings WE read now be excluded?) then it is another gospel.

[OldCoot]

Well, not only the KJV and NKJV translate it as "us", but also Young's Literal Translation (same guy who did Young's Concordance which is on par with Strong's), Green's Literal Translation, etc.  Even English translations I have seen of the Latin Vulgate.

But like the Elders, they would fall down before the Lord. Every created thing would.  

The GT saints are included in EVERYTHING in the Gospel.   They just are not the Church or even the OT Saints for that matter.  But the Gospel... the Good News of reconciliation to God thru the death, burial, and resurrection of Yeshua, the Son of God, and that is granted by trust and faith in that redemptive work of Yeshua....is applicable.    Anything added to that or taken away from that simple, basic truth is "another gospel".  It was the promise from the time of Adam onward.

But hey, the GT saints are granted a special privilege that even the OT saints or the Church is not given.....

Revelation 7:14-17 (TLV) Then he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason, they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His Temple. The One seated on the throne will shelter them. 16 They shall never again go hungry, nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not beat down on them, nor any scorching heat. 17 For the Lamb in the midst of the throne shall shepherd them and guide them to springs of living water, and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes.

The 24 Elders (the Church) surround the throne, but they are not before the throne and serve God directly as these GT saints are rewarded with.  The Elders (Church) rule and reign with Messiah but they are not the one who stand before the throne of God and serve Him day and night in His Temple.  

But hey, don't feel bad.  I don't.  

Edited July 28, 2018 by OldCoot

[Uriah]

2 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Well, not only the KJV and NKJV translate it as "us", but also Young's Literal Translation (same guy who did Young's Concordance which is on par with Strong's), Green's Literal Translation, etc.  Even English translations I have seen of the Latin Vulgate. *

But like the Elders, they would fall down before the Lord. Every created thing would.  

The GT saints are included in EVERYTHING in the Gospel.  they just are not the Church or even the OT Saints for that matter.  But the Gospel... the Good News of reconciliation to God thru the death, burial, and resurrection of Yeshua, the Son of God, and that is granted by trust and faith in that redemptive work of Yeshua....is applicable.    Anything added to that or taken away from that simple, basic truth is "another gospel".  It was the promise from the time of Adam onward.

But hey, the GT saints are granted a special privilege that even the OT saints or the Church is not given.....

Revelation 7:14-17 (TLV) Then he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason, they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His Temple. The One seated on the throne will shelter them. 16 They shall never again go hungry, nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not beat down on them, nor any scorching heat. 17 For the Lamb in the midst of the throne shall shepherd them and guide them to springs of living water, and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes.

The 24 Elders (the Church) surround the throne, but they are not before the throne and serve God directly as these GT saints are rewarded with.  The Elders (Church) rule and reign with Messiah but they are not the one who stand before the throne of God and serve Him day and night in His Temple. **

But hey, don't feel bad.  I don't.  

* Yep, the majority don't say "us".

Heresy alert !

So, will there be ANOTHER rapture for them, or another resurrection?

* * I would love for you to show a bible verse, or two, or three for this stuff.