Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[OldCoot]

42 minutes ago, Uriah said:

* Yep, the majority don't say "us".

Heresy alert !

So, will there be ANOTHER rapture for them, or another resurrection?

* * I would love for you to show a bible verse, or two, or three for this stuff.

 Well, there is more that one resurrection and removal of the righteous.  A minimum of 3 in the NT alone. And some of these are expounded upon in the Tanakh (OT).

The OT saints in Matthew 27 is one.  Many early Church writers, who are recognized as solid commentators that either knew the apostles or their disciples, wrote that these saints were caught up to the throne of God after their resurrection closely behind Yeshua's resurrection.  And before you poo poo other writer's outside of scripture comments, remember that even in scripture there are many quotes from extrabiblical sources.   But the writers who commented on this issue are considered genuine.  And those saints that were resurrected were not part of the "Church" since the Church didn't begin till 49 days later. But they are saints and redeemed.

The witnesses of Revelation 11 is another.  They are resurrected and caught up. Probably the most "in your face" definitive event mentioned.

And the one of 1 Thessalonians 4 which is expounded upon in 2 Thessalonians 2.

These three.... distinct from each other and we haven't even gotten to the resurrection at the end of the millennial reign when all the dead are raised and judged.  But that GWT one is of a prosecutorial nature unlike the Bema judgement of believers for determining rewards.

Why is it so preposterous for there to be a resurrection for the GT saints that is separate and distinct from the Church or any of the others?   One of the 24 Elders in heaven tells John in Revelation 7 that those John is seeing are the ones who come out of the GT.   So either these folks are resurrected and removed prior to the Church in general or they are afterward.  They sure are distinct from the Church.  And I have expounded that the 24 Elders lay claim to the description of believers in the Church.

And Enoch and Elijah were taken.  while not a hallmark indication of other rapture events, supportive nonetheless. Enoch and Elijah also are in the camp of the "redeemed".  And they sure aren't the "Church" which wasn't an entity until Shavuot 32AD.  

 

Heresy would be if I denied the Son of God, 2nd person of the Trinity, His virgin birth, and His redemptive work to reconcile to the Father those who place their trust in Him.  Some folks throw "heresy" around like a punch line designed to denigrate others they don't agree with, showing the gifts of the Holy Spirit they lack.

Edited July 28, 2018 by OldCoot

[Steve Conley]

2 hours ago, OldCoot said:

 Well, there is more that one resurrection and removal of the righteous.  A minimum of 3 in the NT alone. And some of these are expounded upon in the Tanakh (OT).

The OT saints in Matthew 27 is one.  Many early Church writers, who are recognized as solid commentators that either knew the apostles or their disciples, wrote that these saints were caught up to the throne of God after their resurrection closely behind Yeshua's resurrection.  And before you poo poo other writer's outside of scripture comments, remember that even in scripture there are many quotes from extrabiblical sources.   But the writers who commented on this issue are considered genuine.  And those saints that were resurrected were not part of the "Church" since the Church didn't begin till 49 days later. But they are saints and redeemed.

The witnesses of Revelation 11 is another.  They are resurrected and caught up. Probably the most "in your face" definitive event mentioned.

And the one of 1 Thessalonians 4 which is expounded upon in 2 Thessalonians 2.

These three.... distinct from each other and we haven't even gotten to the resurrection at the end of the millennial reign when all the dead are raised and judged.  But that GWT one is of a prosecutorial nature unlike the Bema judgement of believers for determining rewards.

Why is it so preposterous for there to be a resurrection for the GT saints that is separate and distinct from the Church or any of the others?   One of the 24 Elders in heaven tells John in Revelation 7 that those John is seeing are the ones who come out of the GT.   So either these folks are resurrected and removed prior to the Church in general or they are afterward.  They sure are distinct from the Church.  And I have expounded that the 24 Elders lay claim to the description of believers in the Church.

And Enoch and Elijah were taken.  while not a hallmark indication of other rapture events, supportive nonetheless. Enoch and Elijah also are in the camp of the "redeemed".  And they sure aren't the "Church" which wasn't an entity until Shavuot 32AD.  

 

Heresy would be if I denied the Son of God, 2nd person of the Trinity, His virgin birth, and His redemptive work to reconcile to the Father those who place their trust in Him.  Some folks throw "heresy" around like a punch line designed to denigrate others they don't agree with, showing the gifts of the Holy Spirit they lack.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Clif, have you noticed what is in common between these three passages?

Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Mat 24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Mat 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

To whom do these three passages refer to? To us.

Concerning the 24 elders, whoever they may be, they cannot be the church, for we are gathered to Christ at His parousia which cannot come until the cosmic sign that John sees at the opening of the sixth seal takes place. The parousia ends the unprecedented persecution. Parousia is more than approaching, it is an arrival and continuing presence. There is only one coming (parousia) of Christ in the future, His second (Heb 9:28).

Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end of the world?

Mat 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be.

1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Looking for the blessed hope, even the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ,

Pastor Conley

[OldCoot]

Well, we will just have to disagree.  I see the removal of the righteous as either just before or at the start of the GT period.  A several OT passages lend support to that.  And that is a requirement by the Lord.... before anything can be established, it must be confirmed on the testimony of two witnesses.   When it comes to scripture, any position we hold on these things must be supported in both the OT and NT.  The OT is all the Bereans had when they were commended by the Holy Spirit for searching the scripture daily to see if what Paul taught them was true.   These are the two witnesses that fulfill the standard established by the Lord, the NT and OT.    And the 404 verses of Revelation have over 500 references to the OT.  So I think it might be important to use the OT to help establish one's case.  

Edited July 28, 2018 by OldCoot

[frienduff thaylorde]

24 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Clif, have you noticed what is in common between these three passages?

Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Mat 24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Mat 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

To whom do these three passages refer to? To us.

Concerning the 24 elders, whoever they may be, they cannot be the church, for we are gathered to Christ at His parousia which cannot come until the cosmic sign that John sees at the opening of the sixth seal takes place. The parousia ends the unprecedented persecution. Parousia is more than approaching, it is an arrival and continuing presence. There is only one coming (parousia) of Christ in the future, His second (Heb 9:28).

Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end of the world?

Mat 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be.

1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Looking for the blessed hope, even the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ,

Pastor Conley

The COMING of our LORD is  a ONE TIME EVENT .    We will go through tribulation ,   the tribualation and wrath of ANTI CHRIST we will have to endure it and many will be killed.

WHEN JESUS returns its to call us up AND LAY DOWN THE WRATH OFGOD against the ungodly and destroys the son of perdtion and all that bought the lie .

I don't know how else to put it .    The early church never gave the idea that we going to escape PERSECTION FROM THE WORLD .   ONLY GODS wrath will we escape .

Steve.   I got a personal question .    Have you read in revelation where it talks bout the spirits that come out of the mouth of the beast , false prophet and dragon .

THEMS spirits,  and what do they do ,   deceive the world , kings and people   .  NOW I say that because I notice RIGHT NOW , we got some serious deceiving going on .

Folks from secular PC ,  to other religions , to even christainty seem to all be getting gathered UNDER AN INCLUSVIE BANNER FOR WORLD UNITY .

BET YA that leads RIGHT TO THE BEAST ,the WORSHIP OF the beast and the great tribulation AGAINST US .    and its on the way.    

[Uriah]

3 hours ago, OldCoot said:

 Well, there is more that one resurrection and removal of the righteous.  A minimum of 3 in the NT alone. And some of these are expounded upon in the Tanakh (OT).

The OT saints in Matthew 27 is one.  Many early Church writers, who are recognized as solid commentators that either knew the apostles or their disciples, wrote that these saints were caught up to the throne of God after their resurrection closely behind Yeshua's resurrection.  And before you poo poo other writer's outside of scripture comments, remember that even in scripture there are many quotes from extrabiblical sources.   But the writers who commented on this issue are considered genuine.  And those saints that were resurrected were not part of the "Church" since the Church didn't begin till 49 days later. But they are saints and redeemed.

The witnesses of Revelation 11 is another.  They are resurrected and caught up. Probably the most "in your face" definitive event mentioned.

And the one of 1 Thessalonians 4 which is expounded upon in 2 Thessalonians 2.

These three.... distinct from each other and we haven't even gotten to the resurrection at the end of the millennial reign when all the dead are raised and judged.  But that GWT one is of a prosecutorial nature unlike the Bema judgement of believers for determining rewards.

Why is it so preposterous for there to be a resurrection for the GT saints that is separate and distinct from the Church or any of the others?   One of the 24 Elders in heaven tells John in Revelation 7 that those John is seeing are the ones who come out of the GT.   So either these folks are resurrected and removed prior to the Church in general or they are afterward.  They sure are distinct from the Church.  And I have expounded that the 24 Elders lay claim to the description of believers in the Church.

And Enoch and Elijah were taken.  while not a hallmark indication of other rapture events, supportive nonetheless. Enoch and Elijah also are in the camp of the "redeemed".  And they sure aren't the "Church" which wasn't an entity until Shavuot 32AD.  

 

Heresy would be if I denied the Son of God, 2nd person of the Trinity, His virgin birth, and His redemptive work to reconcile to the Father those who place their trust in Him.  Some folks throw "heresy" around like a punch line designed to denigrate others they don't agree with, showing the gifts of the Holy Spirit they lack.

I don't throw around the word "heresy" often, hardly ever. Eph. 4:5 gives a glimpse into a teaching from Paul;-One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

So there is ONE body also (See Rom. 12:4 and 9 others like it) That body is called His Church!. To deviate from this truth handed down form the apostle as if you know better, well, if you don't think it is heresy and you decide what constitutes His body, good luck. Those "trib saints" believe everything we do and love their lives not, even unto death, are born again like you and I but you declare them NOT the church. They are called "saints" just like everywhere the church is called saints in the N.T. You ought to re-think it.

Also take note of scripture on "the resurrection." That is the way it is written. Not as one of many. This is why theologians often use the term "general resurrection" so it will be clearer for readers like yourself. See how Rev 20 declares "...THIS is the first resurrection.." that is there for a reason too. God raised people from the dead but they were NOT THE RESURRECTION in view of scripture.

No O.T. saints were raised in Matt 27. Heb 11:40 forbids such an interpretation..."God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

So it aint happening without us. Those in Matt 27 are called "bodies"! Nobody that ever was raised form the dead were treated so. The centurian saw "these things" -at the cross-he could not see into the future when there was ANOTHER quake-AFTER His resurrection" It says the rocks split and bodies came out--they were ejected from their tombs carved into vertical faces of stone. "they went into the city and were seen by many" ....because there are no punctuation marks in the  original texts, you should have a set of parentheses in a sentence here.  Then you would refer after the parentheses back to the split rocks...it hs them that were seen by many and WENT into the city. Went is a positional word here, NOT a motive word.....like- the traffic jam WENT all the way back to the corner. (locational)

So, yes early writers misunderstood too. As for the witnesses, I believe they will be Enoch and Elijah. They haven;t died yet. And if God goes outside of his stated pastern, so be it! That doesn't mean we can disregard Rev. 20's FIRST Resurrection. This would like trying to build a doctrine on the scenario of the witch of Endor with Saul and Samuel. Something God did ONCE as a dramatic statement is not a license, but a warning.

Edited July 28, 2018 by Uriah

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Uriah said:

No O.T. saints were raised in Matt 27. Heb 11:40 forbids such an interpretation..."God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

Matthew 27:51-53 (NKJV) Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

How does the passage in Hebrews forbid such an interpretation?

Hebrews 11:40 (NKJV) God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

Especially in context of the verse that follows it....

Hebrews 12:1 (NKJV) Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

Now, many early church writers are considered very sound in what they taught.  They concur that these saints of Matthew 27 were taken to the Father.  That idea conforms to the harvest regulations of Leviticus 23, and Yeshua pointed to the idea of the harvest several times in His discourses.

I could be as wrong about this as anyone else.  But given the preponderance of evidence, I think I will hold onto my assertion.  Thanks for sharing.

Edited July 29, 2018 by OldCoot

[Uriah]

24 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

Matthew 27:51-53 (NKJV) Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

How does the passage in Hebrews forbid such an interpretation?

Hebrews 11:40 (NKJV) God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

Especially in context of the verse that follows it....

Hebrews 12:1 (NKJV) Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

Now, many early church writers are considered very sound in what they taught.  They concur that these saints of Matthew 27 were taken to the Father.  That idea conforms to the harvest regulations of Leviticus 23, and Yeshua pointed to the idea of the harvest several times in His discourses.

I could be as wrong about this as anyone else.  But given the preponderance of evidence, I think I will hold onto my assertion.  Thanks for sharing.

So as you can see, there is a parenthetic portion that begins right after the word "bottom" in v. 51. Or could even be cited after the word, "split" As I said, there are NO punctuation marks of any kind in early Greek manuscripts. It is so because it was dark and the centurion could not see cracks in rocks, nor what happened the next day, therefore, and this refers to- Matt 28:2- And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.....note the word AFTER His resurrection in v.53. Also the word "arose" is simply one of a change of position , and likely a euphemism. 

As for Heb 11:40, yeah it says they CANNOT be made perfect-glorified/resurrected, without us, period. You now actually now believe people are watching us from heaven? Try ch. 12:1 again. It has no such meaning, but refers to the TESTIMONY of those heroes f the faith we just saw in the previous chapter.

a witness

in a legal sense

an historical sense

one who is a spectator of anything, e.g. of a contest

in an ethical sense

those who after his example have proved the strength and genuineness of their faith in Christ by undergoing a violent death

[OldCoot]

No sale, Uriah.  Thanks for sharing though.  Not a condition of salvation, so I am not worried one way or the other.  The scripture regarding the harvest, OT references, and the early Church writers does it for me. Basing a theology on one verse interpretation is a minefield.  And I learned early in my military career to not go into minefields.

Perfect can mean glorified/resurrected, but it can also simply mean complete or consecrated.  You see, basing a theology on parsing words in a verse is touchy at best.  And there was no punctuation in the original autographs, so using that seems spurious at best.

Edited July 29, 2018 by OldCoot

[Uriah]

No problem, bro-God bless!

(parsing must be done sparingly and carefully, like Paul did re: seed vs seeds etc)

[Steve Conley]

On 7/28/2018 at 7:54 PM, Uriah said:

I don't throw around the word "heresy" often, hardly ever. Eph. 4:5 gives a glimpse into a teaching from Paul;-One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

So there is ONE body also (See Rom. 12:4 and 9 others like it) That body is called His Church!. To deviate from this truth handed down form the apostle as if you know better, well, if you don't think it is heresy and you decide what constitutes His body, good luck. Those "trib saints" believe everything we do and love their lives not, even unto death, are born again like you and I but you declare them NOT the church. They are called "saints" just like everywhere the church is called saints in the N.T. You ought to re-think it.

Also take note of scripture on "the resurrection." That is the way it is written. Not as one of many. This is why theologians often use the term "general resurrection" so it will be clearer for readers like yourself. See how Rev 20 declares "...THIS is the first resurrection.." that is there for a reason too. God raised people from the dead but they were NOT THE RESURRECTION in view of scripture.

No O.T. saints were raised in Matt 27. Heb 11:40 forbids such an interpretation..."God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

So it aint happening without us. Those in Matt 27 are called "bodies"! Nobody that ever was raised form the dead were treated so. The centurian saw "these things" -at the cross-he could not see into the future when there was ANOTHER quake-AFTER His resurrection" It says the rocks split and bodies came out--they were ejected from their tombs carved into vertical faces of stone. "they went into the city and were seen by many" ....because there are no punctuation marks in the  original texts, you should have a set of parentheses in a sentence here.  Then you would refer after the parentheses back to the split rocks...it hs them that were seen by many and WENT into the city. Went is a positional word here, NOT a motive word.....like- the traffic jam WENT all the way back to the corner. (locational)

So, yes early writers misunderstood too. As for the witnesses, I believe they will be Enoch and Elijah. They haven;t died yet. And if God goes outside of his stated pastern, so be it! That doesn't mean we can disregard Rev. 20's FIRST Resurrection. This would like trying to build a doctrine on the scenario of the witch of Endor with Saul and Samuel. Something God did ONCE as a dramatic statement is not a license, but a warning.

 

On 7/28/2018 at 9:18 PM, OldCoot said:

Matthew 27:51-53 (NKJV) Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

How does the passage in Hebrews forbid such an interpretation?

Hebrews 11:40 (NKJV) God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

Especially in context of the verse that follows it....

Hebrews 12:1 (NKJV) Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

Now, many early church writers are considered very sound in what they taught.  They concur that these saints of Matthew 27 were taken to the Father.  That idea conforms to the harvest regulations of Leviticus 23, and Yeshua pointed to the idea of the harvest several times in His discourses.

I could be as wrong about this as anyone else.  But given the preponderance of evidence, I think I will hold onto my assertion.  Thanks for sharing.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

How do the following verses fit in with the timing of the glorification of OT saints?

Luk 9:30  And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
Luk 9:31  Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

Rom 8:30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Please notice glorified is past tense. Does not this mean that Paul was referring to the faithfulness of God to the OT saints to work things out for good. An example of such would be Joseph.

 

An observation that I've made concerning the two witnesses is that their ministry (Rev 11:3-14) and the ministry of Elijah (Mal 4:5-6), who should come before the day of the Lord, are not the same. It is still possible that one of the two witnesses is Elijah and the ministries are combined, but I have my doubts.

The choice of Enoch and Elijah as the witnesses due to the fact that they were taken and didn't physicaly die and therefore must die in the future because "it is appointed unto men once to die" is faulty logic. There will be many who pass into glory without having gone through physical death. Those that are alive and remain unto the parousia of the Lord will not taste death, however, they will be changed and raptured.

Hallelujah