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Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position


George

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26 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

The choice of Enoch and Elijah as the witnesses due to the fact that they were taken and didn't physicaly die and therefore must die in the future because "it is appointed unto men once to die" is faulty logic. There will be many who pass into glory without having gone through physical death. Those that are alive and remain unto the parousia of the Lord will not taste death, however, they will be changed and raptured.

I agree with this in principle but think that there needs to be a clarification.

  • For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.  For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.  1 Corinthians 15:21-22

This is talking about physical life / death (unless you believe in universal salvation).  Everyone must die, but not all will "sleep in the ground."  Those who are alive when Jesus returns will transition through death and put on immortality in the blink of an eye.  "Sleep" occurs after one dies.  Those who are alive and are changed when Jesus returns are immediately made immortal after they die.  For them, there is no "sleep" but they do die before they are made immortal.

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3 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

How do the following verses fit in with the timing of the glorification of OT saints?

Luk 9:30  And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
Luk 9:31  Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

Rom 8:30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Please notice glorified is past tense. Does not this mean that Paul was referring to the faithfulness of God to the OT saints to work things out for good. An example of such would be Joseph.

 

An observation that I've made concerning the two witnesses is that their ministry (Rev 11:3-14) and the ministry of Elijah (Mal 4:5-6), who should come before the day of the Lord, are not the same. It is still possible that one of the two witnesses is Elijah and the ministries are combined, but I have my doubts.

The choice of Enoch and Elijah as the witnesses due to the fact that they were taken and didn't physicaly die and therefore must die in the future because "it is appointed unto men once to die" is faulty logic. There will be many who pass into glory without having gone through physical death. Those that are alive and remain unto the parousia of the Lord will not taste death, however, they will be changed and raptured.

Hallelujah

 

glory-

to think, suppose, be of opinion

to praise, extol, magnify, celebrate

to honour, do honour to, hold in honour

to make glorious, adorn with lustre, clothe with splendour

to impart glory to something, render it excellent

to make renowned, render illustrious

to cause the dignity and worth of some person or thing to become manifest and acknowledged

 

It seems obvious of the intended meaning due to the context and setting with reference to Jesus' clothing glistening. Were you thinking it is the same as Heb.11:40 where the context is the word "resurrection"?

made perfect

to make perfect, complete

to carry through completely, to accomplish, finish, bring to an end

to complete (perfect)

add what is yet wanting in order to render a thing full

to be found perfect

to bring to the end (goal) proposed

to accomplish

bring to a close or fulfillment by event

of the prophecies of the scriptures

* It is my position that when Moses went up the mount and -into-the pillar of fire, he was taken to the transfiguration to meet with Jesus and Elijah.

You are right about not having to be those two as witnesses. Just seems more likely to me since they have certainly been singled out in an exclusive manner. And, one Hebrew, one gentile, one from this present world, one from the world that was.

Edited by Uriah
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On 7/28/2018 at 2:22 PM, OldCoot said:

Well, there is more that one resurrection and removal of the righteous.  A minimum of 3 in the NT alone. And some of these are expounded upon in the Tanakh (OT).

The OT saints in Matthew 27 is one.  ...

The witnesses of Revelation 11 is another.  They are resurrected and caught up. Probably the most "in your face" definitive event mentioned.

And the one of 1 Thessalonians 4 which is expounded upon in 2 Thessalonians 2.

Also the one most people miss, and few would agree to: the manchild of Rev. 12:5 "caught up to God and to His throne." The elect of the elect, having "the rod of iron to rule all nations": Christ's chief ministers in the millennial age.

On 7/28/2018 at 2:22 PM, OldCoot said:

Why is it so preposterous for there to be a resurrection for the GT saints that is separate and distinct from the Church or any of the others?   One of the 24 Elders in heaven tells John in Revelation 7 that those John is seeing are the ones who come out of the GT.   So either these folks are resurrected and removed prior to the Church in general or they are afterward.  They sure are distinct from the Church.

Sorry, but this "great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne" (Rev.7:9) can only describe those who have ascended in the Coming of Christ for his chosen of the Church. This is the same "great multitide" that is seen in Rev. 19:6. 

If they are "distinct from the Church," then the Church would be a lesser body than they.

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1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

Sorry, but this "great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne" (Rev.7:9) can only describe those who have ascended in the Coming of Christ for his chosen of the Church. This is the same "great multitide" that is seen in Rev. 19:6. 

If they are "distinct from the Church," then the Church would be a lesser body than they.

Let's look at that closer.  Revelation 2:26-29, Yeshua states that all those who overcome will rule and reign with a rod of iron, as He has been given by the Father.  That was written to the Churches.

The 24 Elders specifically claim in Revelation 5 that they have been redeemed of every tribe, tongue, people, and nation.  They also lay claim that they will reign upon the earth, in keeping with the above reference.   David separated the priests into 24 divisions in 1 Chronicles 24.  Peter says that the Church is a "royal priesthood" (read: Kings and Priests) in 1 Peter 2:9.  These 24 Elders are already on their 24 thrones surrounding the throne of God before Yeshua is given the scroll with the seals on it.

Now, those redeemed in Revelation 7.  Yes, they are also from all the nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, just as the 24 Elders are, but there is no claim that they reign on the earth.  There is no claim that they are part of the Churches.  They are not on thrones.  They stand before the throne of God, serving Him day and night.   They are AFTER Yeshua has opened the seals.  It would seem that they have been granted a special reward for the enduring the trials of the GT undo death by serving the Father day and night and He will personally comfort them and wipe away their tears,  whereas the Church that was removed at the start of the Trib period (aka 24 Elders) is to rule on the earth with Yeshua.  

Both groups are equal in that Yeshua has redeemed them.  But they are still two unique groups that have differing roles.  Neither is "better" or "less" than the other.   They have all been redeemed by the Blood of Yeshua.  Both roles are unique and special.  Only pride (a sin by the way) would lead some to conclude that one group is better or less than the other.

 

Edited by OldCoot
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1 hour ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Question: Who are the 24 Elders? Let's analize this deeply:

John did see a door was opened in heaven (heaven* is not the physical space of Universe(sky), but celestial places in Christ - Ephesians 1:v.3 for example.) 
The first voice which John heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with him, which said to John: Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. (Speaking of a future time).  John did see a throne was set in heaven* and one sat on the throne, and there was a rainbow round about the throne (a bow of seven colours). 

John saw also round about the throne four and twenty seats: and upon the seats John saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
The four and twenty elders fall down before Him that sat on the throne, and in the right hand of Him there was a book written sealed with seven seals, and the 24 Elders worship Him that lives for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou are worthy, O Lord, to receive Glory and Honour and Power: for thou has created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


John started crying and wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, then ONE of the Elders said unto John, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof, and this ONE came and took the book out of the right hand of Him that sat upon the throne, and the 24 Elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and has redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;  (Who are these millions of angels? The answer is in Luke 20:v.35-36)
Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive Power, and Riches, and Wisdom, and Strength, and Honour, and Glory, and Blessing.
Blessing, and Honour, and Glory, and Power, be unto Him that sits upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped Him that lives for ever and ever. AMEN.

Well, well, but who are the 24 Elders? The twenty four Elders are the twenty four autors of the Holy Scriptures, which were the chosen messengers of God, linked directly to the Most High and Almighty God to proclaim His Word through an in all centuries. Remember: God is a title. The Word is God, an invisible God. Hallelujaaah!
 

Well, I appreciate the legwork you put into "analyzing it deeply", but I prefer to let the Elders say who they are.  And I showed you that, and it comports with a maxim in Biblical hermeneutics which is roughly the following....... 

When the plain sense of scripture makes sense, then seek no other sense, or you risk ending up with nonsense.

I really don't give a rip who the angels are in in that scene.  They are angels.  They are not the Elders.  The Elders specifically state......

Revelation 5:9-10 (NKJV) And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;

And we shall reign on the earth.”

1 Peter 2:9 (NKJV) But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

And King David divided the priesthood into 24 divisions in 1 Chronicles 24, setting the precedent which will come later.

Revelation 2:26-27 (NKJV) And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
27 ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels’—as I also have received from My Father;

Edited by OldCoot
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Well, best I can tell, the Scriptures were written by 40 guys who wrote down what the one author, the Holy Spirit, told them.

Nice try though.

From the Answers is Genesis folks so you don't get the idea I made that up....

The Bible is composed of 66 books by 40 different writers over 1,500 years, yet it has one consistent storyline running all the way through, and it has just one ultimate author — God.

Edited by OldCoot
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3 minutes ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

 

Seems your Bible is contamined with apocryphal books.

Like what?

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19 minutes ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

 

Seems your Bible is contamined with apocryphal books.

Now, either you are just naive or you are just trying to act like an idiot and being contentious for the sake of it.  Now we have to figure out which.  I think I have a bead on which.

If there were Apocryphal books in the standard Bible, the total would be more than 66.  Any standard KJV, NKJV, NIV, NASB, TLV, ESV, etc has 66 books.   Genesis to Revelation in the recognized canon of scripture is 66 books.  39 in the OT and 27 in the NT.  And they were written by 40 different writers all led by the Holy Spirit, who is the one true author.

I feel sorry for your parents.  

Edited by OldCoot
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11 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Perhaps what I have stated above sounded not so clearly in its details, but rest assured that what I really meant is that the 24 Elders mentioned in the Bible are the 24 authors of the Old Testament, yea, it was what I really meant, believe you or not. Its it. 

I have no doubt you believe it.   Many folks like to complicate things and make them more mystical than they really are.  For me, It started out in the military, then in college math classes, and has carried on ever since..... the simplest, most straight forward solution is usually the best solution.  Also known as Occam's Razor.     So I applied that and let the Elders speak for themselves on who they were, compared what they said about themselves to what the rest of scripture was saying, and stuck with that.  And since they didn't say they wrote or had anything to do with the Tanakh, it really doesn't factor in for me.

Edited by OldCoot
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On 7/31/2018 at 11:52 AM, OldCoot said:
On 7/31/2018 at 11:04 AM, WilliamL said:

Sorry, but this "great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne" (Rev.7:9) can only describe those who have ascended in the Coming of Christ for his chosen of the Church. This is the same "great multitide" that is seen in Rev. 19:6. 

If they are "distinct from the Church," then the Church would be a lesser body than they.

Let's look at that closer.  Revelation 2:26-29, Yeshua states that all those who overcome will rule and reign with a rod of iron, as He has been given by the Father.  That was written to the Churches.

The 24 Elders specifically claim in Revelation 5 that they have been redeemed of every tribe, tongue, people, and nation.  They also lay claim that they will reign upon the earth, in keeping with the above reference.   David separated the priests into 24 divisions in 1 Chronicles 24.  Peter says that the Church is a "royal priesthood" (read: Kings and Priests) in 1 Peter 2:9.  These 24 Elders are already on their 24 thrones surrounding the throne of God before Yeshua is given the scroll with the seals on it.

William's response: Remember, many were resurrected from the dead within days of Christ's resurrection: the ones redeemed from Sheol/Hades. Matt. 27:52-53; John 5:25; 1 Pet. 3:19; 4:6; etc. These are the ones before the throne in Rev. 5. They were ascended two millenia before the End Times even begin. They are only observers of the events from the time that God sits on his throne of judgment in the Latter Days, and they are only a small fraction of the total of those who will ascend overall.

Now, those redeemed in Revelation 7.  Yes, they are also from all the nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, just as the 24 Elders are, but there is no claim that they reign on the earth.  There is no claim that they are part of the Churches.  They are not on thrones.  They stand before the throne of God, serving Him day and night.   They are AFTER Yeshua has opened the seals.  ...

William: Jesus said, “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things [in context, the things of the GT] that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” Luke 21:36 These ones are precisely those being described in Rev. 7:9. Whether they reign from thrones or not is irrelevant: Christ's Church is made up of both ones ruling and ones not ruling. There are many crowns for the faithful, and most of them do not involve rulership.

It would seem that they have been granted a special reward for the enduring the trials of the GT unto death by serving the Father day and night and He will personally comfort them and wipe away their tears,  whereas the Church that was removed at the start of the Trib period (aka 24 Elders) is to rule on the earth with Yeshua.  

William: NOTHING says that these people have died in the GT. This is a great fallacy taught by many, but without scriptural support.

Both groups are equal in that Yeshua has redeemed them.  But they are still two unique groups that have differing roles.  Neither is "better" or "less" than the other.   They have all been redeemed by the Blood of Yeshua.  Both roles are unique and special.  Only pride (a sin by the way) would lead some to conclude that one group is better or less than the other.

William: True. Together they make up "the general assembly and Church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven." Heb. 12:23 They are not "distinct from the Church," as you originally wrote.

 

 

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