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Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position


George

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On 7/27/2018 at 9:47 AM, OldCoot said:

Well, it can be reasoned that the wrath begins at the first seal.  The events of those seals do not happen until they are opened, and it is by Yeshua's hand that they are opened.  They would not happen unless He did.  Kind of a exercise in deductive reasoning.

Also, the 24 Elders are present when Yeshua is handed the scroll with the seals.  Let's break that down a little.

David, in 1 Chronicles 24, divided the priests into 24 divisions.  That set the precedent.

According to Peter, we are a royal priesthood.  1 Peter 2:9.  The 24 Elders in Revelation claim they are kings and priests (royal priesthood) and they have been redeemed from all the nations, and will rule an reign with Messiah, just as Revelation 2:25-27 states.

Revelation 5:9-10 (NKJV) And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.

I am not sure how one could not see that the 24 Elders are claiming to the redeemed, aka the Church.

There were saints prior to the Church, as seen in Matthew 27, which many early Church writers claim were taken to the Father by Yeshua.  The Church is made up of saints.  And there will be saints after the Church is removed.  All are saints by the redemptive work of Yeshua, but not all are of the same group. They are equal, but different.  To use another analogy... everyone in the U.S. Marine Corps is a Marine.  But not all Marines are officers, not all are non commissioned officers, etc.  They are all Marines, they became Marines in the same way, but they are divided into groups.

No one should get their panties in a wad over these issues.  They are not a condition of salvation.  There are differing views on what the scriptures say regarding the end time events and we can throw ideas around in a friendly manner without any animosity.  

 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

OC, there are at least three good reasons to conclude that what John sees when Christ opens the first six seals are not the wrath of God.

1) No wrath executed yet at the opening of the fifth seal

The seals are in sequential order, 1-7. That would mean that seals 1, 2, 3, and 4, come before, that is prior to (I must say this because some pre-tribbers are challenged when it comes to understanding the meaning of the word "before"), seal #5. What John sees at the opening of the 5th seal is quite a bit different than that which he describes seeing at the opening of seals 1-4 and 6. He sees martyred saints in heaven under the altar. They are crying out to God for their violent deaths, for His name's sake, to be avenged. They died as martyrs and they expect God to deal justice unto their persecutors. Jesus spoke of such a scenario associated with His coming.

Luk 18:7  And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Luk 18:8  I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

The answer the martyrs receive is that they will have to wait a little season for their murders to be avenged. The theme of vengeance is closely associated with the day of the Lord.

Paul tells us that the day vengeance finally comes is the day of Christ's revelation when the church rests from being persecuted (thlipsis, trouble, tribulation).

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

At the opening of the fifth seal, Christ's vengeance has not yet fallen upon our persecutors. In fact, it is said that vengeance will not come until a little season involving more martyrdom.

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

If vengeance upon the earth dwellers who persecute the saints unto death hasn't fallen at the opening of the fifth seal we most certainly know that God's wrath didn't begin at the first seal.

2) The cosmic sign which portends the arrival of the day of the Lord is seen by John at the opening of the sixth seal

John sees the cosmic sign that Joel said would come prior to the day of the Lord when the sixth seal is opened.

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The day of the Lord, that is God's wrath executed in that day, cannot come until the cosmic sign takes place.

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

3) There is no mention of God's wrath in the book of Revelation until the earth dwellers seeing Jesus revealed with the holy angels begin to hide from the wrath that will fall later the same day upon them

Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Twelve times the word wrath appears in the book of Revelation, referring to God's wrath. The first mention isn't at the opening of the first seal, it is at the opening of the sixth seal when the unbelieving, Beast worshipers, who will have been persecuting the saints to the death, realize the party is over because the day of the Lord has arrived. They had scoffed and mocked that there would ever be such a day of reckoning. However, after seeing in the clouds the arrival of the Christ in all His glory with the mighty angels they are hiding.

The word wrath isn't mentioned until after the sixth seal is opened in which it is said that the day of His wrath is come. Knowing that the redeemed are not appointed unto God's wrath on the day of the Lord, the saints will be removed from the earth in the rapture before wrath begins to fall upon the earth dwellers later that day in the form of the first trumpet judgement. Revelation 7:9-17 records the results of the resurrection and rapture. There John sees us before the throne of God in Heaven.

I pray that you recognise these simple truths.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto Jesus Christ our Lord

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On 7/27/2018 at 7:47 AM, OldCoot said:

Well, it can be reasoned that the wrath begins at the first seal.  The events of those seals do not happen until they are opened, and it is by Yeshua's hand that they are opened.  They would not happen unless He did.  Kind of a exercise in deductive reasoning.

That doesn't conclude 'wrath begins at the first seal' as the concept of when wrath begins is not one of the premises. All that can be concluded from the premises offered is that it's God and Christ allowing the events of the seals. Anything can be reasoned, doesn't make it sound, accurate or correct. If you want to speak to when wrath begins then you have to present premises generally accepted as true concerning 'wrath' instead of facts concerning 'opening of the seals'.

On 7/27/2018 at 7:47 AM, OldCoot said:

Also, the 24 Elders are present when Yeshua is handed the scroll with the seals.  Let's break that down a little.

David, in 1 Chronicles 24, divided the priests into 24 divisions.  That set the precedent.

According to Peter, we are a royal priesthood.  1 Peter 2:9.  The 24 Elders in Revelation claim they are kings and priests (royal priesthood) and they have been redeemed from all the nations, and will rule an reign with Messiah, just as Revelation 2:25-27 states.

Is it a fact the Elders 'claim' they are kings and priests? Please post the objective fact supporting this.

On 7/27/2018 at 7:47 AM, OldCoot said:

Revelation 5:9-10 (NKJV) And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.

I am not sure how one could not see that the 24 Elders are claiming to the redeemed, aka the Church.

Problem is you're not reading the entire passage and applying sound reasoning. You would have to prove the Elders did not exist in heaven in the throne room with our Father prior to Christ's redemptive work on the cross. The king's and priests in the above passage are the redeemed by the blood of the Lamb of every people group. Can you prove the Elders did not exist in heaven prior to the cross? Another point is it looks as though this song being sung is based on the prayers of the saints, not the condition of the Elders. 

You could be correct on this, you just have to prove it by fact and not doctrinal policies.

On 7/27/2018 at 7:47 AM, OldCoot said:

There were saints prior to the Church, as seen in Matthew 27, which many early Church writers claim were taken to the Father by Yeshua.  The Church is made up of saints.  And there will be saints after the Church is removed.  All are saints by the redemptive work of Yeshua, but not all are of the same group. They are equal, but different.  To use another analogy... everyone in the U.S. Marine Corps is a Marine.  But not all Marines are officers, not all are non commissioned officers, etc.  They are all Marines, they became Marines in the same way, but they are divided into groups.

No one should get their panties in a wad over these issues.  They are not a condition of salvation.  There are differing views on what the scriptures say regarding the end time events and we can throw ideas around in a friendly manner without any animosity.  

 

It is a salvation issue when either additions or subtractions are made concerning the Revelation. 

And your reasoning is suspect once again as you do not provide premises generally accepted as fact supporting your arguments. It may be the Marines have divisions of status, it may be the redeemed believers have differing levels of responsibility in the Kingdom, but that does not correlate to segregation.

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Vacation time over and back at the grind stone.  So time to get back into this game as well.

 

On 8/11/2018 at 6:39 AM, Diaste said:

Problem is you're not reading the entire passage and applying sound reasoning. You would have to prove the Elders did not exist in heaven in the throne room with our Father prior to Christ's redemptive work on the cross. The king's and priests in the above passage are the redeemed by the blood of the Lamb of every people group. Can you prove the Elders did not exist in heaven prior to the cross?

that is a a red herring argument.   It is akin to the ornery agnostic argument of "I don't know there is a God, but I know you don't know".   There is no need to prove they weren't there before Revelation 4.  They are there at that time, they state who they are (all the qualifications of believers in the Ekklesia), and it sure isn't little green men from Mars.  

 

On 8/11/2018 at 6:39 AM, Diaste said:

Is it a fact the Elders 'claim' they are kings and priests? Please post the objective fact supporting this.

Revelation 5:9 (NKJV) And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

Revelation 5:10 (NKJV) And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.”

I know that some will quibble that "us" is not in many translations, and in some cases the word "them" is in view,  but I will concede to a professor of near east languages to break it down.  Every major English translation fudges this passage up to one degree or another.  Yes, even the one I posted here.  But that doesn't negate the assertion I made.

PHD John Niemela did a  breakdown of Revelation 5:9-10 that is pretty solid.  He went into all the linguistic nuances of the Greek in the passage, he approach it from the Textus Receptus, Alexandrian, Majority text, etc positions.  All the mind numbing dryness of a technical lecture you would want.  

All the details you would want to absorb.  And his conlusion?   The same as mine, that the 24 Elders are representative of the Ekklesia.  I only came across this lecture about 3 days ago, so it had no bearing on my previous assertion.    But he does such a detailed analysis that I couldn't begin to approach so I felt it best to refer you to this lecture.

Revelation 5:9-10 textual analysis

 

On 8/11/2018 at 6:39 AM, Diaste said:

It is a salvation issue when either additions or subtractions are made concerning the Revelation. 

And your reasoning is suspect once again as you do not provide premises generally accepted as fact supporting your arguments. It may be the Marines have divisions of status, it may be the redeemed believers have differing levels of responsibility in the Kingdom, but that does not correlate to segregation.

I will take it a step further then.   There are angels (messengers), Cheribim, Seraphim.  All different groups of beings created by God, but all equal before Him.  They each have their own unique position and task.   Human salvation is indeed on an equal footing... all are saved in the same way, by the Blood of the Lamb.  But that doesn't negate diversity.  

The 24 Elders are encircled around the throne of God on thrones of their own, but they are not shown to be servicing Him day and night.  The saints who come out of the GT period are not on thrones, do not have crowns like the 24 Elders do, and they stand directly before the throne of God servicing Him directly in His Temple day and night.  Both groups are redeemed in the same way, but they are separate groups in their function before YHVH.  Paul, Peter, and Yeshua states we, the Ekklesia, will rule and judge.  That is not said of the GT saints in Revelation 7.  

Angels do not rule. Angels are not given crowns.  Angels are simply servants of YHVH.  That only leaves the option that the 24 Elders are representative of Ekklesia.  Peter says we are royal (kings) priesthood.  Paul says we will judge the Angels.  Yeshua says we will rule with rod of Iron just as He received from the Father.  None of these things are said of OT saints or GT saints.  Only the Ekklesia.

Where people stumble up is thinking one group is superior to the others.  Not the case.  That kind of thinking led to Satan's fall.  All those made righteous by the Blood of the Lamb are equal before the Lord.  But not all have the same job description.  Unity and Diversity to the Glory of YHVH.  The OT saints are not the Ekklesia.  The GT saints are not the Ekklesia.  And the Ekklesia is not the other groups.  OT saints are not GT saints.  Each group is distinct.

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18 hours ago, OldCoot said:

that is a a red herring argument.   It is akin to the ornery agnostic argument of "I don't know there is a God, but I know you don't know".   There is no need to prove they weren't there before Revelation 4.  They are there at that time, they state who they are (all the qualifications of believers in the Ekklesia), and it sure isn't little green men from Mars.  

Why is it a red herring? Because you don't like the challenge? I'm not misleading not distracting, merely pointing out the lack of written proof offered and asking for more.

18 hours ago, OldCoot said:

 

Revelation 5:9 (NKJV) And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

Revelation 5:10 (NKJV) And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.”

I know that some will quibble that "us" is not in many translations, and in some cases the word "them" is in view,  but I will concede to a professor of near east languages to break it down.  Every major English translation fudges this passage up to one degree or another.  Yes, even the one I posted here.  But that doesn't negate the assertion I made.

It may not negate the assertion but it certainly begs more evidence.

This is an interesting way to put it as well as catching the sense of the passage:

“You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.

10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.”

 Rev 5:9-10 NIV, https://biblehub.com/niv/revelation/5.htm

 

 

18 hours ago, OldCoot said:

All the details you would want to absorb.  And his conlusion?   The same as mine, that the 24 Elders are representative of the Ekklesia. 

You may be correct. But being a rep does not maketh equivalency. This in no way proves a pretrib rapture. I think a better way to view them is based on this:

1 Chronicles 24

David, Zadok (a descendant of Eleazar), and Ahimelech (a descendant of Ithamar) divided them into groups to carry out their assigned responsibilities. The descendants of Eleazar had more leaders than the descendants of Ithamar, so they divided them up accordingly; the descendants of Eleazar had sixteen leaders, while the descendants of Ithamar had eight. They divided them by lots, for there were officials of the holy place and officials designated by God among the descendants of both Eleazar and Ithamar.

This division of priestly responsibility is likely a reflection of the 24 elders existing in heaven at the time, 24 elders that probably existed from the beginning. So the elders would then be priests with responsibilities in the kingdom of heaven but certainly doesn't make them the church.

18 hours ago, OldCoot said:

 

The 24 Elders are encircled around the throne of God on thrones of their own, but they are not shown to be servicing Him day and night.  The saints who come out of the GT period are not on thrones, do not have crowns like the 24 Elders do, and they stand directly before the throne of God servicing Him directly in His Temple day and night.  Both groups are redeemed in the same way, but they are separate groups in their function before YHVH.  Paul, Peter, and Yeshua states we, the Ekklesia, will rule and judge.  That is not said of the GT saints in Revelation 7.  

I have always had a problem with such analysis. I think it more furthers a doctrine and an agenda sans truth. This above epistemology omits foundational truths contained in scripture, from Jesus words, and Pauls.

Matthew 22:30

For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Paul expands on this in many places but I think the below says it best.

Ephesians 4:11-13

And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

These divisions, gifts, responsibilities are temporary and not the goal or the end result. "Unity of the faith", "a mature man", "the fullness of Christ" is that to which we are called. It's doubtful there is any segregation in the kingdom based solely on the timing of one's life and passing.

Why divide among the saints? How is that all the attributes of the saints we see in scripture do not apply equally to all the saints redeemed and resurrected in Christ? Where does scripture say the GT saints are not seated on thrones nor wear crowns? If scripture does not state your assertion then you need other evidence to prove this assertion or it's just a conclusion based on omission; which is suspect from the onset.

18 hours ago, OldCoot said:

 That only leaves the option that the 24 Elders are representative of Ekklesia.  Peter says we are royal (kings) priesthood.  Paul says we will judge the Angels.  Yeshua says we will rule with rod of Iron just as He received from the Father.  None of these things are said of OT saints or GT saints.  Only the Ekklesia.

Ha! The only option? Not a one of us has perfect insight into the things of the Lord. I think a valid option is to state this is all opinion and none know for sure. You have not made a grand case resulting in an unequivocal conclusion; this has just been an editorial laced with dramatic license.

 

18 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Where people stumble up is thinking one group is superior to the others.  Not the case.  That kind of thinking led to Satan's fall.  All those made righteous by the Blood of the Lamb are equal before the Lord.  But not all have the same job description.  Unity and Diversity to the Glory of YHVH.  The OT saints are not the Ekklesia.  The GT saints are not the Ekklesia.  And the Ekklesia is not the other groups.  OT saints are not GT saints.  Each group is distinct.

Actually you do think one group is superior to another, don't you? The poor GT saints don't get thrones or crowns, they don't rule nor judge. This is a lesser position to those who do get crowns, thrones and the authority to rule and judge. You may not realize this but the idea that a vast group is 'raptured' from their easy chairs, saved from the terrible tribulation of jobs, overbearing bosses, and traffic congestion while another vast group, supposedly on equal footing with the first, is going to be denied food, shelter, clothing while being hunted and slaughtered like animals, is by nature creating a superiority of one group over another.

Puerile emotion born of immaturity overcomes fact and logic in this doctrine.

The groups are not distinct, all are one in Christ.  Fact:

1 Cor 10

1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

I guess the congregation followed Jesus back in the days of Moses.

Hebrews 11

24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompense of the reward.

No difference in the saints. 

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3 hours ago, Diaste said:

You have not made a grand case resulting in an unequivocal conclusion; this has just been an editorial laced with dramatic license.

Well, I am not trying to make a "grand case".  Of course what I have stated is opinion.  Everything you have stated is opinion.   None of us are equal with the Lord, so any comments we have regarding how we see things in scripture is opinion and comment.  To think otherwise is bordering on pride.  

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Actually you do think one group is superior to another, don't you? The poor GT saints don't get thrones or crowns, they don't rule nor judge. This is a lesser position to those who do get crowns, thrones and the authority to rule and judge. You may not realize this but the idea that a vast group is 'raptured' from their easy chairs, saved from the terrible tribulation of jobs, overbearing bosses, and traffic congestion while another vast group, supposedly on equal footing with the first, is going to be denied food, shelter, clothing while being hunted and slaughtered like animals, is by nature creating a superiority of one group over another.

It is always amazing how some exhibit melodramatic responses at others in such a way as if trying to demean the person they are dealing with.  Sad that dialogue between those who should be brethren is lowered to something one would hear during a political election.  And the world looks at this and then is it any wonder they reject Christianity and see it as only another vain religion.

I am not sure how seeing the GT saints as serving before the throne as opposed to siting on thrones is negating them in any way.  As a matter of fact, I think that is a very honorable and rewarding place for them.  To actually be at the very foot of God Himself and having Him wipe  away every tear. That only brings unspeakable joy to my heart that they will experience that after the trials they undergo.  Only a crass moron would see that as some sort of lower class kind of thing.  Likewise, seeing the redeemed that were removed earlier and having crowns as being superior exhibits a caste system sort of mentality.  Each group is equal.  But each group has different responsibilities.    And keep in mind, this is only during the Millennial Kingdom that any ruling is going on by these 24 Elders (Ekklesia).  That is because there will be still physical humans that live in the Millennial Kingdom, procreate, work, and still have a sin nature within them.  Enough residual sin remains in the heart of man that, even with Satan locked up, they will need to be ruled over with a rod of iron.   

But as for some sort of "escapism" picture that you present, that misses the entire point of who are the redeemed and who they are before the Lord.  With what is coming upon the earth, why is it that the One who redeemed with His own blood and are sealed by the Holy Spirit not also want to snatch them away from the calamities that are coming upon the earth?   True, we are to expect tribulation and persecution from the world, but the GT period events are toward a specific group (unbelievers) with a specific purpose in mind by the Lord.  Those that come to faith in the midst of that, were by default "unbelievers" when the GT period starts.  At the start of the GT, they were a sub class or inferior group compared to those already redeemed by the Lord.  Only thru their future trust in Messiah and redemption via His blood are they then equal.  But they are a different group, just like the OT saints are a different group than the Ekklesia of the NT.  

Actually, it would seem that those who feel that the redeemed before the GT starts must go thru the GT period just like those who come to faith during that time seem to present it in such a way as to imply a purgatory type situation which is somewhat pagan in nature.  That those redeemed, they must "prove" themselves worthy since the Blood of Messiah was not good enough to fully redeem them.  That they must "prove" themselves worthy unto death.  Not sure I would care to look God in the face and exclaim that His Son's Blood was not good enough.  But that has been the nature of man since the early days and has led to the plethora of religions that dot the landscape.  That feeling that we have to make ourselves worthy or earn our way to God.  Something that the Gospel totally assails.   We are and never will be worthy and we can never earn redemption, but because God loved us, He provided His own Son as a sacrifice to redeem us.  And after paying such a high price for our redemption, to then force us to endure something that has been directed by Him toward the unbelieving world demeans who His character and nature is.  

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21 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Of course what I have stated is opinion.  Everything you have stated is opinion.  

I agree, you have stated your opinion. I have not. I read and repeat what the Lord has said. It's not opinion when it's the truth as spoken by the Lord and the Apostles.

21 hours ago, OldCoot said:

  None of us are equal with the Lord, so any comments we have regarding how we see things in scripture is opinion and comment.  To think otherwise is bordering on pride.  

Speak for yourself only. You cannot possibly know the mind and heart of anyone but yourself, which sometimes people even hide from themselves. But this is a convenient philosophy. Absolves the speaker of responsibility for their thoughts, after all, "It's just opinion."

About pride; so many times I have heard this used as the rebuttal to arguments. It's just a shaming tactic. The opposition has nothing better to offer so they resort to emotional pleas and shaming, never considering how they diminish themselves with hypocritical arguments. This is what you just did. 

I will not humble myself under the thumb of religious doctrine. I will hear the word of the Lord and fully accept it as truth, the only truth, even as the world opposes this truth. Look:

Matthew 3:7

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Religious leaders likened to vipers? From the mouth of John? Is this pride or truth?

Matthew 23

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Pride or truth?

 

21 hours ago, OldCoot said:

It is always amazing how some exhibit melodramatic responses at others in such a way as if trying to demean the person they are dealing with.  Sad that dialogue between those who should be brethren is lowered to something one would hear during a political election.  And the world looks at this and then is it any wonder they reject Christianity and see it as only another vain religion.

Hmm...An interesting reply considering I stand against unsupported doctrine and not any particular person. But let me present a few things many avoid.

Matthew 10:34

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Hebrews 4:12

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

James 1:14

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

James 4:4

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

There's quite a bit to digest in this next passage. Maybe read it a couple times

Jude

11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

 

21 hours ago, OldCoot said:

 Only a crass moron    

Another very interesting comment.

21 hours ago, OldCoot said:

But as for some sort of "escapism" picture that you present, that misses the entire point of who are the redeemed and who they are before the Lord.  With what is coming upon the earth, why is it that the One who redeemed with His own blood and are sealed by the Holy Spirit not also want to snatch them away from the calamities that are coming upon the earth?   

Just another emotional plea appealing to the flesh. You do that quite a bit.

21 hours ago, OldCoot said:

 Those that come to faith in the midst of that, were by default "unbelievers" when the GT period starts.  

Sure. But then they become believers. And then they have to endure the wrath of God according to pretrib doctrine, which is forbidden by the word of the Lord, and 'we are not appointed to wrath' is the bedrock of pretrib doctrine. But I guess that only applies to a special, more worthy group of believers.

21 hours ago, OldCoot said:

  At the start of the GT, they were a sub class or inferior group compared to those already redeemed by the Lord.  

And apparently remain inferior according to the doctrine, as there are no crowns nor authority for this group. What a sad way to view fellow believers, the brethren.

21 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Actually, it would seem that those who feel that the redeemed before the GT starts must go thru the GT period just like those who come to faith during that time seem to present it in such a way as to imply a purgatory type situation which is somewhat pagan in nature.  That those redeemed, they must "prove" themselves worthy since the Blood of Messiah was not good enough to fully redeem them.  That they must "prove" themselves worthy unto death.  

No one I know says this and it's not an argument I have ever used as it's ludicrous. The nature of the end of the age is the coming government of the Lamb and the end of the government of man. It's an epic and profound return to the peace and sanctity which God intended, before mankind disobeyed and followed after his lust. This is about the redemption of creation and the return to holiness and truth and love, not an exercise in self abuse.

We will be caught in the war between good and evil, for a purpose far greater than the base saving of our flesh, for the privilege of eternity, the right to rule, the destruction of sin and death, ushering in the peace of the King of kings and the Lord of lords and the glory of eternity. And all you can think of is a pretrib rapture to save your own skin while relegating the truth to a masochistic proclivity to prove worthiness.

21 hours ago, OldCoot said:

  Not sure I would care to look God in the face and exclaim that His Son's Blood was not good enough.  But that has been the nature of man since the early days and has led to the plethora of religions that dot the landscape.  That feeling that we have to make ourselves worthy or earn our way to God.  Something that the Gospel totally assails.   We are and never will be worthy and we can never earn redemption, but because God loved us, He provided His own Son as a sacrifice to redeem us.  And after paying such a high price for our redemption, to then force us to endure something that has been directed by Him toward the unbelieving world demeans who His character and nature is.  

It's too bad this is your view of a doctrine to which you do not hold. But again there is no positive evidence, just an emotional plea disparaging real evidence and truth.

But I'm finished here.

When you see the beast rise and Temple construction, and hear trumps sound, look for me. I'll be here for ya.

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On 8/31/2018 at 4:59 AM, Diaste said:

It may not negate the assertion but it certainly begs more evidence.

Provided but obviously not looked at.

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5 hours ago, Diaste said:

When you see the beast rise and Temple construction, and hear trumps sound, look for me. I'll be here for ya.

When I see that happen, I will be watching it from the Mezzanine.   I hope you are there with me.

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On 8/30/2018 at 10:45 AM, OldCoot said:

The 24 Elders are encircled around the throne of God on thrones of their own, but they are not shown to be servicing Him day and night.  The saints who come out of the GT period are not on thrones, do not have crowns like the 24 Elders do, and they stand directly before the throne of God servicing Him directly in His Temple day and night.  Both groups are redeemed in the same way, but they are separate groups in their function before YHVH.  Paul, Peter, and Yeshua states we, the Ekklesia, will rule and judge.  That is not said of the GT saints in Revelation 7.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

OC, it would seem that Rev 20:4 stands in direct opposition to your proposition.

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

What does it mean to reign, except to sit in power and judgement over a realm.

Isn't it amazing how a little Scripture can throw such a monkey wrench into eschatological systems designed for itching ears.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lamb

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9 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

OC, it would seem that Rev 20:4 stands in direct opposition to your proposition.

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

What does it mean to reign, except to sit in power and judgement over a realm.

Isn't it amazing how a little Scripture can throw such a monkey wrench into eschatological systems designed for itching ears.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lamb

Now what is it that makes folks think that some concept is only for "itching ears"   That is taking a play right out of secular politics.  Sure, all our concepts on these things are somewhat clouded, as Paul himself said we see thru a glass dimly.  But the "itching ears" comment can be said about any other idea on these things as well.  Those that use that sort of terminology are evidencing a level of pride, that their way is the only way and everyone else is playing on the highway.  It is arrogant to the extreme.

And the verse you mentioned, while it does seem to take on the side of the issue regarding the tribulation saints, it doesn't in any way negate the concept of the 24 Elders being the removed Ekklesia.  There is one thing for certain in regard to those tribulation saints that is NOT said of the 24 elders....

Revelation 7:13-17 (NKJV) Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

They are a delineated group from the 24 Elders.  And they are not sitting on thrones like the 24 Elders.  The 24 Elders are NOT angels either, as they also are redeemed of every tribe, tongue, nation, etc just like every other human.  Given that there are far more than 24 Tribes, tongues, nations, etc, it has to refer to a collective body.  And since they are present when the sealed scroll is given to Yeshua, it is evident that they are the redeemed Ekklesia.   Again, they are not the same group as the tribulation saints.

And reigning with Yeshua has multiple facets.  It could be from a local constable on up to a district governor.  Or even the local dog catcher maybe.   But all would be part of the reigning monarchy.  There will be lots of administrative folks I would imagine.  But not everyone will rule with a rod of iron (i.e. judicial authority) as is said of those redeemed of the Ekklesia in Revelation 2.

You could well be right in regard to the reigning thing being equal with the Ekklesia / 24 Elders.  But to resort to secular political type tactics (itching ears comment) to get the point across is pretty low.  Anyone is welcome to disagree, but it is definitely not exhibiting the fruit of the spirit to resort to that sort of thing.

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