Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[WilliamL]

17 hours ago, OldCoot said:

...since they [the 24 elders] are present when the sealed scroll is given to Yeshua, it is evident that they are the redeemed Ekklesia

Matt. 27:51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

1 Peter 4:6 ...the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

John 5:25 “Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live."

These are "the redeemed ekklesia" who make up the 24 elders.

[OldCoot]

9 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Matt. 27:51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

1 Peter 4:6 ...the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

John 5:25 “Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live."

These are "the redeemed ekklesia" who make up the 24 elders.

Indeed, they are redeemed, but they are not the NT Ekklesia. The NT Ekklesia, commonly known as "the Church" did not begin till 7 weeks after the OT saints were resurrected in Matthew 27.

Peter is very clear that who he is writing to is a royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9), AKA kings and priests mentioned in Revelation. In that same verse he makes the statement that we are a chosen generation and holy nation.  That separates us from those of the OT Saints and the Tribulation Saints.  It is never stated of OT redeemed or GT redeemed that they are a royal priesthood. 

King David, of the lineage of Messiah and on whose authority Yeshua will reign over Israel and the entire earth (Luke 1:32), divided the priesthood into 24 divisions or courses.  That set the precedence.  It is quite reasonable to assert from that event that the royal priesthood / kings and priests / Ekklesia / NT Church  is also divided into 24 groups, in the case of Revelation 4 -5,  24 Elders.

Therefore, it is reasonable, again, to assert that the 24 Elders represent the NT Believers prior to the GT period, as they are present with Yeshua when He is given the scroll that is commonly understood to be the start of the final tribulation period.

Edited September 21, 2018 by OldCoot

[Steve Conley]

On 7/27/2018 at 9:47 AM, OldCoot said:

Well, it can be reasoned that the wrath begins at the first seal.  The events of those seals do not happen until they are opened, and it is by Yeshua's hand that they are opened.  They would not happen unless He did.  Kind of a exercise in deductive reasoning.

Also, the 24 Elders are present when Yeshua is handed the scroll with the seals.  Let's break that down a little.

David, in 1 Chronicles 24, divided the priests into 24 divisions.  That set the precedent.

According to Peter, we are a royal priesthood.  1 Peter 2:9.  The 24 Elders in Revelation claim they are kings and priests (royal priesthood) and they have been redeemed from all the nations, and will rule an reign with Messiah, just as Revelation 2:25-27 states.

Revelation 5:9-10 (NKJV) And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.

I am not sure how one could not see that the 24 Elders are claiming to the redeemed, aka the Church.

There were saints prior to the Church, as seen in Matthew 27, which many early Church writers claim were taken to the Father by Yeshua.  The Church is made up of saints.  And there will be saints after the Church is removed.  All are saints by the redemptive work of Yeshua, but not all are of the same group. They are equal, but different.  To use another analogy... everyone in the U.S. Marine Corps is a Marine.  But not all Marines are officers, not all are non commissioned officers, etc.  They are all Marines, they became Marines in the same way, but they are divided into groups.

No one should get their panties in a wad over these issues.  They are not a condition of salvation.  There are differing views on what the scriptures say regarding the end time events and we can throw ideas around in a friendly manner without any animosity.  

 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

OC, your deductive reasoning is in contradiction to some very explicit evidence that God's, day of the Lord wrath, doesn't fall until the first trumpet is blown in Rev 8. There are at least three good reasons to conclude that what John sees when Christ opens the first six seals is not the wrath of God.

I'll give you one of them here. I have given the others many times, if you are interested in truth you can find them among my posts.

No wrath executed yet at the opening of the fifth seal

The seals are in sequential order, 1-7. That would mean that seals 1, 2, 3, and 4, come before, that is prior to (I must say this because some pre-tribbers are challenged when it comes to understanding the meaning of the word "before"),  seal #5. What John sees at the opening of the 5th seal is quite a bit different than that which he describes seeing at the opening of seals 1-4 and 6. He sees martyred saints in heaven under the altar. They are crying out to God for their violent deaths, for His name's sake, to be avenged. They died as martyrs and they expect God to deal justice unto their persecutors. Jesus spoke of such a scenario associated with His coming.

Luk 18:7  And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Luk 18:8  I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

The answer the martyrs receive is that they will have to wait a little season for their murders to be avenged. The theme of vengeance is closely associated with the day of the Lord.

So much for your deductions.

Worthy is the Lamb

 

[OldCoot]

38 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

OC, your deductive reasoning is in contradiction to some very explicit evidence that God's, day of the Lord wrath, doesn't fall until the first trumpet is blown in Rev 8. There are at least three good reasons to conclude that what John sees when Christ opens the first six seals is not the wrath of God.

I'll give you one of them here. I have given the others many times, if you are interested in truth you can find them among my posts.

No wrath executed yet at the opening of the fifth seal

The seals are in sequential order, 1-7. That would mean that seals 1, 2, 3, and 4, come before, that is prior to (I must say this because some pre-tribbers are challenged when it comes to understanding the meaning of the word "before"),  seal #5. What John sees at the opening of the 5th seal is quite a bit different than that which he describes seeing at the opening of seals 1-4 and 6. He sees martyred saints in heaven under the altar. They are crying out to God for their violent deaths, for His name's sake, to be avenged. They died as martyrs and they expect God to deal justice unto their persecutors. Jesus spoke of such a scenario associated with His coming.

Luk 18:7  And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Luk 18:8  I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

The answer the martyrs receive is that they will have to wait a little season for their murders to be avenged. The theme of vengeance is closely associated with the day of the Lord.

So much for your deductions.

Worthy is the Lamb

 

Still stands.  Those seals would not be opened unless Yeshua opened them, and the events they represent would not happen without those seals being opened.   God doesn't always take a direct hand in executing calamity.  Remember Sargon of Assyria? 

Prophecy is pattern as much as it is prediction.  There are many instances in scripture where God uses even pagan individuals to deliver His judgement and wrath.  Now knowing that, take a look at seal one again.

[Steve Conley]

11 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Still stands.  Those seals would not be opened unless Yeshua opened them, and the events they represent would not happen without those seals being opened.   God doesn't always take a direct hand in executing calamity.  Remember Sargon of Assyria? 

Prophecy is pattern as much as it is prediction.  There are many instances in scripture where God uses even pagan individuals to deliver His judgement and wrath.  Now knowing that, take a look at seal one again.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

OC, let's try this again. The first three seals parallel the beginning of sorrows that Jesus spoke of taking place prior to the beginning of the unprecedented persecution that He called great tribulation. Your ideas stand in contradiction to the explicit statements of the Holy Scriptures. 

1) No wrath executed yet at the opening of the fifth seal

The seals are in sequential order, 1-7. That would mean that seals 1, 2, 3, and 4, come before, that is prior to (I must explain the word "before" because some pre-tribbers are challenged when it comes to understanding the meaning of the word),  seal #5. What John sees at the opening of the 5th seal is quite a bit different than that which he describes seeing at the opening of seals 1-4 and 6. He sees martyred saints in heaven under the altar. They are crying out to God for their violent deaths, for His name's sake, to be avenged. They died as martyrs and they expect God to deal justice unto their persecutors. Jesus spoke of such a scenario associated with His coming.

Luk 18:7  And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Luk 18:8  I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

The answer the martyrs receive is that they will have to wait a little season for their murders to be avenged. So, at the opening of the 5th seal, God's wrath upon the persecutors of the saints is yet a little season away. At Christ's coming God's fierce wrath is going to fall upon the earth dwellers who will have been persecuting the church. Paul makes this truth clear when he encourages the persecuted Thessalonians.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

When Christ arrives the tables will be turned. Those who had been busy persecuting (thlipsis) us who are Christ's, will be tribulated by God with the judgements of the day of the Lord. The vengeance that the martyrs were crying out for will be realized on that day. That is consistent with Christ's teaching that the day of our rescue will be the day that He pours out His wrath upon the wicked.

Luk 17:26  And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

God's wrath will not fall until we are rescued. Those under the altar are told that before God will avenge them more of their brethren must die as martyrs. We see in Rev 6:9-11 reference to both the unprecedented persecution (great tribulation) suffered by the elect (the martyrs) and the wrath of God (vengeance) in the day of the Lord.

2) The day of the Lord cannot come until after the cosmic sign John sees at the opening of the sixth seal

The theme of vengeance is closely associated with the day of the Lord. In fact, God's eschatological wrath is the primary theme of the day of the Lord. It is important to realize that God's wrath or vengeance falls on the day of the Lord. The beginning of the day of the Lord is the period of Christ's eschatological wrath. God's wrath and the day of the Lord are synonymous with each other.

How does this let us know that what John sees at the opening of the first six seals is not God's wrath? God's wrath cannot fall upon the wicked until the day of the Lord begins. The Scriptures are very explicit concerning when the day of the Lord begins. There are a number of things that are said must take place before the day of the Lord can come. We only need look at one of them to conclude that the seals are not the wrath of God.

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Joel's prophecy says that an easily identifiable cosmic sign must come prior to the day of the Lord. We know that the word "before" is referring to before in the sense of time, not location, because when Peter quotes Joel as recorded in Greek by Luke the word prin is used which never means "in the face of". Prin means prior to.

Prior to the day of the Lord, the cosmic sign that Joel spoke of must take place. It just so happens that John sees that very sign when the 6th seal is opened.

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The day of the Lord cannot begin until after the cosmic sign that John sees at the opening of the sixth seal. Therefore, what John sees at the opening of the first 6 seals are not God's wrath.

3) The first mention of God's wrath in the book of Revelation is after the sixth seal is opened

It doesn't take a doctorate in any Biblical discipline to see that the wrath of God cannot fall until after the sixth seal is opened. In fact, it is later the very same day that the first trumpet is blown and the salvos of God's wrath begin to fall. But praise be unto Jesus that we are not appointed unto wrath, for we shall be raptured first.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Praise Jesus our Lord

Edited September 22, 2018 by Steve Conley

[Marilyn C]

7 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

 

 

The theme of vengeance is closely associated with the day of the Lord. In fact, God's eschatological wrath is the primary theme of the day of the Lord. It is important to realize that God's wrath or vengeance falls on the day of the Lord. The beginning of the day of the Lord is the period of Christ's eschatological wrath. God's wrath and the day of the Lord are synonymous with each other.

 

 

3) The first mention of God's wrath in the book of Revelation is after the sixth seal is opened

It doesn't take a doctorate in any Biblical discipline to see that the wrath of God cannot fall until after the sixth seal is opened. In fact, it is later the very same day that the first trumpet is blown and the salvos of God's wrath begins to fall. But praise be unto Jesus that we are not appointed unto wrath, for we shall be raptured first.

Praise Jesus our Lord

Hi Steve,

A couple of points bro.

1. The Day of the Lord - `Day` means a literal day AND a period of time. This we see in scripture.

2. God`s Wrath - we need to take all of God`s word regarding this topic, not just the book of Revelation.

Invariably scripture connects this time with tribulation and suffer­ing. Zephaniah (1:14-18) provides one of the most concise descrip­tive accounts, as being more severe than any other in history. This is confirmed by Jeremiah (30:7), Daniel (12:1) and Joel (2:2).

 Jesus Himself warned “For there shall be great tribulation such as was not since the beginning to this time, no nor ever shall be.” Matt. 24:21. John succinctly epitomises it as “the Day of the wrath of God”. Rev. 6:15-17. Greek ‘Orge’ expresses wrath, anger, vengeance with connotations of punishment. To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity. (Isa. 26:21).

regards, Marilyn.

[Diaste]

6 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

OC, let's try this again. The first three seals parallel the beginning of sorrows that Jesus spoke of taking place prior to the beginning of the unprecedented persecution that He called great tribulation. Your ideas stand in contradiction to the explicit statements of the Holy Scriptures. 

 

It's an excellent attempt. Surely enough to convince.

If some need to believe every dire consequence is God's wrath there might not be any way to change their mind; until these notions are put to rest by actual events. 

I get that it's appealing to have a pretrib rapture and escape; I can understand why some believe this even though it's wrong.

How far can we get with those who conflate inaccurately, change definitions, ignore concepts, segregate, elevate without cause, and advance arguments rife with emotional appeals and reliance on group think and consensus?

None so blind as those refuse to see.

Don't stop. Lots of people listening that are open to the truth. 

 

[Marilyn C]

4 minutes ago, Diaste said:

 

 

I get that it's appealing to have a pretrib rapture and escape; 

 

Hi Diaste,

`Escape!!!!!!` Dying to self everyday as Paul says is definitely NOT escaping. And God`s word tells us that when the Body of Christ comes to the unity of the faith and knowledge of the Son of God, THEN it will be mature. Then it will be time for the Father to send His Son to gather us together, and be set in the place He has made for us.  Then we will rule and reign with Christ as kingpriests, judging the world system and fallen angels as Paul tells us.

The Holy Spirit is completing the work of bringing the Body of Christ to maturity and it is through the knowledge of Christ, His character and His purposes. Across the Body the final truths are being clarified and then we will be complete, as a Body ready for the Head to come for us.

What joy awaits for those who look for His coming. Every believer in the Body of Christ will have died to self, humbled themselves under His mighty hand - perfected in love.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Diaste]

11 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Diaste,

`Escape!!!!!!` Dying to self everyday as Paul says is definitely NOT escaping. And God`s word tells us that when the Body of Christ comes to the unity of the faith and knowledge of the Son of God, THEN it will be mature. Then it will be time for the Father to send His Son to gather us together, and be set in the place He has made for us.  Then we will rule and reign with Christ as kingpriests, judging the world system and fallen angels as Paul tells us.

The Holy Spirit is completing the work of bringing the Body of Christ to maturity and it is through the knowledge of Christ, His character and His purposes. Across the Body the final truths are being clarified and then we will be complete, as a Body ready for the Head to come for us.

What joy awaits for those who look for His coming. Every believer in the Body of Christ will have died to self, humbled themselves under His mighty hand - perfected in love.

regards, Marilyn.

 

Agreed. I think.

I believe you are making a comparison but I don't understand.

[Unfailing Presence]

The clearest human based lack of reasoning behind the Post-trib  thought is the neglect ,  inability to deal with God's message for the building up of the nation Israel .

The only way they can deal with themselves being on the scene   is by clumsily interjecting themselves into being God's needed  emissaries for restoration of Israel to God . 

"God needs us to accomplish this " being the thought .

Completely ignoring the fact that God's Word tells us  the Jews are the only people in human history God has dealt with Face to Face .

All by His lonesome .

God started dealing with Israel Face to face , and God is still the same  . 

It is as if they believe God tried doing it Himself Face to face ,  but it did not work out so well  ,  so  now we will help God with this Jewish issue .

 

Edited September 22, 2018 by Unfailing Presence