Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[Steve Conley]

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

There are a few fundamental truths that the serious student of the Holy Scriptures must consider when adopting an eschatological model. Many of these are undeniable truths which come from very explicit statements made by Christ, the Prophets, and the Apostles. 

12 Fundamental Truths

1) The day of the rescue (rapture) of the Church will be the day God's wrath unexpectedly begins to fall upon the unbelieving, Christ-rejecting, world.

Luk 17:26  And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.  

2) The day the church rests from persecution is the day of Christ's revelation in the clouds with the mighty angels initiating vengeance upon those who were our persecutors.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

3) The church is not appointed unto God's wrath in the day of the Lord.

1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7  For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

4) The watching believer will not be caught by surprise upon the day of the Lord.

1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

5) The coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ begins and is equivalent to the day of the Lord or the day of Christ.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

6) The cosmic sign spoken of by Joel and Peter must come prior to the day of the Lord.

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Act 2:20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

7) The day of the Lord can not come until after the sixth seal is opened, because it is then that John sees Joel's cosmic sign.

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

8 ) The coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ is when the first resurrection and the catching up of those believers who are alive and remain takes place.

1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

9) The coming of Christ takes place immediately after the great tribulation.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

10) The great tribulation begins in the middle of the seventieth week.

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

11) The great tribulation is the unprecedented violent persecution of the elect who follow Christ.

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

12) The Devil focuses his wrath upon Israel and the followers of Christ when he is cast out of Heaven in the middle of the week.

Rev 12:12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13  And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14  And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15  And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16  And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Glory to Jesus Christ

[OldCoot]

3 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

1) The day of the rescue (rapture) of the Church will be the day God's wrath unexpectedly begins to fall upon the unbelieving, Christ-rejecting, world.

Luk 17:26  And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.  

None of that talks about the removal of the righteous.  It doesn't support your assertion.

 

3 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

2) The day the church rests from persecution is the day of Christ's revelation in the clouds with the mighty angels initiating vengeance upon those who were our persecutors.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Again, does not support.  It states that God will recompense tribulation to them that trouble, but it doesn't state that we will be troubled up to the exact point that God does that.  Especially since Isaiah 26 says that the resurrected dead and those that are alive will be hidden before the Lord even starts pounding on the unbelievers.  We don't cross paths in the sky..... us heading up when God is coming out of His place to pile it on those that dwell on the earth.

 

3 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

4) The watching believer will not be caught by surprise upon the day of the Lord.

1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

 

True, but everyone else will be caught off guard, which means no one will have a clue. If things were in place, the antichrist revealed, etc then it would be known the time.   And what does a thief do?  He leaves His place and quickly grabs what He is intending to take and then returns to His place.  Wow.  Sounds like a pre-trib removal to me.

3 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

8 ) The coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ is when the first resurrection and the catching up of those believers who are alive and remain takes place.

1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

9) The coming of Christ takes place immediately after the great tribulation.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

but you confuse the coming as a thief to gather us (see your number 7) with coming to take possession of the earth and set up His kingdom and rule.  Sorry dude, they are not the same thing. 

 

A study of the ancient Jewish wedding procedures will help clear up a lot of this stuff.  Yeshua was quite fond of using the illustration of the marriage ritual.

1) a betrothal contract is initiated.  The groom leaves His fathers house to go to the potential bride's house to establish the betrothal contract.  He seals the deal by sharing a cup of wine with the bride (passover meal with His disciples), then pays the price for His bride (His death on the cross), and then returns to His Father's home.  

2) He then prepares a place for His bride ("I go to prepare a place for you" John 14:2).  This would typically take a year in traditional Jewish customs.  He would not be allowed to come get His bride until the Father approved.  If anyone were to ask the groom when the wedding will be, He would respond..."only my Father knows". (Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32)

3) When it is time to go get his bride, He does it under the cover of darkness, like a thief.  The bride does not know what day He will be coming to take her, but she is to be prepared for the event.  

4) When the groom reaches the bride's house, He does not enter the house but receives His bride unto Himself outside the house (in our case, caught up to meet Him in the air).  Then He takes His bride back to the Father's house where He has prepared the Chupah (wedding chamber) for His bride.  They enter into union there.  ("that where I am, you may be also" John 14:3)5) They remain in the Chupah for 7 days (7 years of the tribulation period), hidden from the world.  At the end of the 7 days, He comes forth from the Chupah bringing His bride to show her off and to initiate the wedding feast.

 

It is a wonderful illustration of Yeshua and His Bride, the Church.   It fits exactly the details that Yeshua outlined things.  And all of these details are common knowledge in any study of 1st century Jewish customs, so no, I didn't make any of this up.  Didn't need to.  

Edited October 1, 2018 by OldCoot

[WilliamL]

18 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

10) The great tribulation begins in the middle of the seventieth week. ...

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

11) The great tribulation is the unprecedented violent persecution of the elect who follow Christ.

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

12) The Devil focuses his wrath upon Israel and the followers of Christ when he is cast out of Heaven in the middle of the week.

Rev 12:12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13  And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14  And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15  And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16  And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I am in complete agreement with the first 9 points, which were well and succinctly stated.

That said, I see some problems in the last three:

10. As I have written on extensively before, nothing in Daniel 9:24-27 says anything about the End Times. There is no Scriptural second witness that tells of a 7-year period in the End Times. This long-held dogma is therefore pure speculation, and thus may lead many to false perceptions about the End Times.

11. True, the GT will include the violent persecution of the Church (5th Seal), but it will also be a time of great tribulation for unbelievers. The worldwide chaos will effect everybody.

12. Presumes the same interpretation of Daniel 9:27: that there will be a week of years in the End Times for which there will be a "middle." A potentially dangerous presumption.

 

[Diaste]

It's not just Dan 9 that leads to this conclusion.

[OldCoot]

Well, we know that the previous 69 weeks were weeks of years.  That is implied in the text and was shown mathematically to be true in calculating the years from the decree until the time of Yeshua’s crucifixion.

Therefore if one asserts that the 70th week is not a week of years, they are performing sloppy exegesis with the text.  At that point, there is little left to believe any other assertions they make, for they have violated one of the main principles of scripture exegesis.... the principle of expositional constancy.  

And we know the passage applies to the end time because Yeshua refers to it talking about the abomination of the temple Holy Place by the false Messiah. 

Edited October 1, 2018 by OldCoot

[Steve Conley]

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

As I said in a previous post, there are a few fundamental truths that the serious student of the Holy Scriptures must consider when adopting an eschatological model. Many of these are undeniable truths, truths which come from very explicit statements made by Christ, the Prophets, and the Apostles. Only those who will not see, are blind to these truths after the examination of the associated texts.

Let's look at how the tenants of the Pre-Trib eschatological model measure up to these truths. Note: there are a thousand flavours of pretribulationism, so, if one or two of these are not describing your flavour, know that it doesn't apply to you but to those that believe such. So, please don't come whining to me saying "I don't believe that."

1) The day of the rescue (rapture) of the Church will be the day God's wrath unexpectedly begins to fall upon the unbelieving, Christ-rejecting, world.

Luk 17:26  And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.  

The typical pretribulationist believes that the day of the Lord (period of God's wrath) begins after the rapture (not necessarily on the same day), but that Christ's revelation (when He is revealed, verse 30) is described in Rev 19 and it happens at the end of the week. Pretribulationists believe the day of the Lord begins roughly seven years before Christ's revelation. This is completely contrary to the statement of Christ as recorded in Luke 17:26-30.

Pretrib false tenant #1) The day of the Lord begins roughly seven years before Christ's revelation.

2) The day the church rests from persecution is the day of Christ's revelation in the clouds with the mighty angels initiating vengeance upon those who were our persecutors.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Pretribulationists believe that Christ's words to the Thessalonian Church really refer to the group they call the tribulation saints. This is true because they teach that Christ's revelation, as described in 2 Thes 1:7, doesn't happen until the end of the week when Christ is seen finishing off the Beast and His armies, as recorded in Revelation 19. So, according to their thinking, the tribulation saints do not rest from persecution until the end of the week. This also reveals that pretribulationists believe that God actually pours out His wrath upon His own faithful saints causing their deaths. They teach that the Beast is the instrument of God's wrath when he is putting the saints to death. How awful, and messed up one must be to think such a thing about the one true God and our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ who gave himself for us, to save us, and then pours out His wrath upon those He has saved. What a sick view of God those who think this way have.

Pre-trib false tenant #2) It is another group of believers other than the church which will rest from persecution at the end of the week when Christ is revealed.

Even though it isn't heralded from the rooftops the following is an essential belief of those who hold the pre-trib model for the rapture. It is essential because it is the obvious implication of thinking that the day of the Lord, that is the period of God's wrath, begins when the week begins. This makes all the persecution described in that week God's doing. They even believe that because Jesus opens the seals He is the one responsible for what comes upon the saints at the opening of the 4th and fifth seals.

Pre-trib false tenant #3) God pours out His wrath upon His own in the form of the atrocities of the Beast and the False Prophet and their followers.

3) The church is not appointed unto God's wrath in the day of the Lord.

1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7  For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Pretribulationists, most of whom live in areas of the world where little to no persecution is experienced, believe and teach that they will not experience any of the unprecedented persecution of the great tribulation. This they believe is supported by Paul's comforting words to the Thessalonians: "for God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ". Many of them recognize the true context of Paul's statement to be the day of the Lord as mentioned in verse 2 of 1Thes 5. However, most of them believe that the period of unprecedented persecution, that Jesus called great tribulation, takes place within the day of the Lord as opposed to prior to it.

Pre-trib false tenant #4) The church is promised to be spared all the events of the seventieth week, especially the unprecedented persecution of the great tribulation.

4) The watching believer will not be caught by surprise upon the day of the Lord.

1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

In spite of this explicit statement, the pretribulational model is built upon the false teaching of an "any moment" rapture. They teach that Jesus will come to rapture His church unexpectedly, like a thief comes. They teach that the apostles taught that Jesus could come at any moment to gather His own to Himself. The nature of the teaching of imminency is to be caught by surprise. When one has no idea when it will take place it is true that when it happens it will be sudden or come unawares. Therefore they make Paul's words to watching believers to be a lie, because he said the day will not come upon us as a thief, for we are not in darkness and will not be caught suddenly or unawares at Christ's arrival on the day of the Lord. Paul said the day will not overtake us as a thief. There is no ambiguity in that statement.

Pre-trib false tenant #5) Jesus comes as a thief to catch away His church.

5) The coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ begins and is equivalent to the day of the Lord or the day of Christ.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

In order to maintain a semblance of plausibility for their model, pretribbers must read a separation into many texts, just like they do into this one. They say the events Paul references in verse 1 are separated by 7 years. However, on many occasions, Paul or others connect the coming (parousia) of Christ with the catching up of the saints. In this text, Paul identifies the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him as the day of Christ. He tells the Thessalonians that that day, the day in which those events of verse 1 take place, is not at hand, that is not near in time. Jesus taught that His coming would be near in time when the great tribulation was taking place. Paul will tell them in verse 3 that Christ's arrival and continuing presence and our gathering to Him cannot come until the great tribulation and the results of it are seen. Paul teaches that the parousia and the rapture are two aspects of Christ's return and that they happen upon the same day. They are not separated by 7 years or any other amount of time.

Pre-trib false tenant # 6) The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ is separated from our gathering together unto Him by seven years.

6) The cosmic sign spoken of by Joel and Peter must come prior to the day of the Lord.

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Act 2:20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Pre-tribbers have a cow when faced with the explicit statement of Joel concerning when God's wrath on the day of the Lord takes place. Joel says the day of the Lord cannot come until the cosmic sign He describes takes place. No cosmic sign, no wrath of God on the day of the Lord. I have heard so many lame explanations of this, attempts to get around the clear meaning of this text. Some have said that before means in front of or in the face of. However, Peter is quoted using the Greek word "prin" when he quoted Joel in Acts 2:20. "Prin" which is translated before, can only mean before in relation to time or sequence. It means "prior to". When Joel says before the great and terrible day of the Lord come, he means prior to the day coming. Others have said that there are many cosmic signs that take place in the last days, so we cannot be sure which one it is referring to. So, they pay no heed to the significance of this sign and forget that it even exists. Even when Jesus speaks of it in the Olivet discourse as a sign of His coming they pay no attention. They, in essence, say “nothing to see here”.

Pre-trib false tenant #7) Pay no attention to the cosmic sign, “there is nothing to see there”.

I'll have to finish this up later.

All praise, honour, and glory to the Lamb

Edited October 2, 2018 by Steve Conley

[OldCoot]

Re: the Pre-Trib model. Ever notice how some will spend an inordinate amount of time and post space to attack it?  It is the one position that garners more than its share of vitriol.   Causes me to wonder if Sir Isaac Newton was right...

“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and  opposition.”

and oh...  He wrote that 100 years before Darby.

Edited October 2, 2018 by OldCoot

[ARGOSY]

On 10/2/2018 at 6:17 PM, OldCoot said:

Re: the Pre-Trib model. Ever notice how some will spend an inordinate amount of time and post space to attack it?  It is the one position that garners more than its share of vitriol.   Causes me to wonder if Sir Isaac Newton was right...

“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and  opposition.”

and oh...  He wrote that 100 years before Darby.

There is no excuse for the vitriol.

Nevertheless the time is getting closer, and it is time to correct the doctrines. I am sure that when water baptism was re-introduced to the church, some over eager baptists weren't polite to the majority that believed in 

I am sure that when pentecostal spirit baptism was introduced to the church there were some over eager Pentecostals not always polite to the majority that doubted that power and those gifts can still exist in power today. 

 

Don't assume just because some people get over excited in a new trend, that the majority are therefore correct in sticking to the old trend.  The bible has the last say in doctrine, not the faulty attitudes of man.

Edited October 17, 2018 by ARGOSY

[OldCoot]

As opposed to working thru the times of the genealogy from Adam to Noah, as fascinating as that can be and the fun one can have trying to apply it to chronological events, I get a bigger kick out of how the meanings of the names in that genealogy, placed in a sentence, spell out the complete NT Gospel.   It is those kind of treasures that are generally missed by many folks in scripture that I cherish most.   The Gospel was spelled out from the very beginning, in the first 1/10th of the book of Genesis.  

Edited October 20, 2018 by OldCoot

[Steve Conley]

On 10/2/2018 at 12:17 PM, OldCoot said:

Re: the Pre-Trib model. Ever notice how some will spend an inordinate amount of time and post space to attack it?  It is the one position that garners more than its share of vitriol.   Causes me to wonder if Sir Isaac Newton was right...

“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and  opposition.”

and oh...  He wrote that 100 years before Darby.

1

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

OC, so, you are saying that it was Darby and those pre-tribbers that came after him that Newton was referring to. Interesting.

The way I see it is that Darby and those early pretribulational dispensationalists that came after him, tried to take the professing church out of the allegorical interpretation ditch, only to end up in a similar ditch on the other side of the road.

A literal hermeneutic is the right way to approach the Holy Scriptures. The Augustinian method of interpretation allowed nearly anything to be read into the text. However, I've found that pretribulationists are very good at reading their eschatological system into the text of the Holy Scriptures. They start with the misunderstood truth that the church is not appointed unto wrath. Indeed the church, or any of Christ's own, are not appointed unto God's wrath. But that is not an exemption from the persecution of the world upon the saints. Jesus said, as was prophesied, that there would be a period of unprecedented persecution upon His own just prior to His coming. Pretribulationists have wrongly interpreted that unparalleled persecution to be part of God's eschatological wrath, the wrath that we are not appointed unto.

To the pretribulationist, this misunderstanding became the "primary truth" that stood above all the other statements of Scripture and the "truth" to which every other text must bow. If another passage contradicted that understanding it would be wrested from its intended meaning through various means. It may be taken to apply to "another elect" other than the church. Or the historic meaning of a word or phrase would be changed to conform the text to the pre-trib system, such as the sudden redefining of the word apostasia to mean rapture.

Just as men like Charles Spurgeon, Samuel Tregeles, and George Muller rejected pretribulationism when it began to be preached in the 1800s, so also, today, many like myself who grew up in pretribulationism, are renouncing it and exposing it to be the lie that it is.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Glory to Jesus Christ

 

Edited October 23, 2018 by Steve Conley