Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[Billiards Ball]

On 6/9/2015 at 3:34 AM, George said:

Hello saints,

 

As I was going over this forum, it occurred to me that there's another position that isn't listed -- the "Pre-Wrath" position which is closely associated with the Mid-Tribulation position with a few nuances.

 

If you are a post-tribulation / pre-wrath advocate, use this thread to defend your position.

 

Your brother in the Lord with much agape love,

 

George

 

 

Just saw your OP, George, but as the editor of a book on Pre-Wrath, I do not find it closely associated to mid-Trib. It's describing a late Rapture, close to the very end, before the "Ten Days of Awe" and Christ's millennial return.

[choir loft]

Rapture dogma continues to be discussed without a shred of attention being paid to the Bible. 

It's rather like gleaners who pour over the city dump looking for some discarded rubbish that might be of use to them.  Rapture talk is like that.  It's discarded trash that nobody except con artists, cowards and bigots want to possess.   It's American rubbish from start to finish.

Most churches in other countries have officially discarded the dogma as divisive and untenable with regard to pursuit of faith in Christ Jesus.  It was born in America and continues to persist here.  Some like to twist history and scripture and insist it began elsewhere, but the truth is that it didn't really surface like manure in a sewer until the mid 19th century in America.

The dogma is anti-semitic religious bigotry.  

According to the scheme only American Protestants will be lifted off the earthly plain when things get dicey.   Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians, which count as the bulk of Christendom, won't be invited.  Jews of course are totally and completely rejected from the trip.   It matters not that all the apostles as well as Jesus were Jews.  It matters not that the entire Bible from cover to cover, with the exception of the gospel of Luke and book of Acts, was written BY Jews and FOR Jewish believers.  Rapture lovers refuse to examine this conundrum and insist their position is faultless.  According to this aberration of doctrine Jesus won't return just once - He'll come back two or three times depending upon the convoluted nature of the scenario.   According to the Bible Jesus returns a second time - not a third or forth.   But let us not confuse the issue with facts.  Let's press the issue of Biblical truth for a bit.

"I pray NOT that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one." - Jesus as quoted by John 17:15 

Which part of NOT do Rapture fans NOT understand?  

It doesn't matter that such a notable person as Jesus denied the idea of early evacuation - the rapture.   Some fool will no doubt claim I misquoted Jesus, but that same person will be unable to address the fact that only about a half dozen verses taken out of context are used to justify the Rapture doctrine.   The ENTIRE rest of the Bible teaches that God's intent is to be with us in tribulation - to walk with us THROUGH troubled times.   The purpose of this act of God is for sanctification.   Look it up.   The doctrine of sanctification is contrary to the doctrine of Rapture.   Which is truth?  The reader can't have it both ways.  "A double minded man is unstable in all his ways." - James 1:8

Finally it should be understood that the Rapture is a doctrine of cowards.  

It encourages its followers to hope for something that will not happen - excusal from an unpleasant situation.   The reader cannot deny that the hope of an early evacuation is often repeated in Rapture churches.  Where is faith that stands strong regardless of the ways of the world?  Where is the courage that built the church in the first place?  ONWARD CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS is a hymn about marching forward with faith in Christ to conquer sin and win the world for Christ.   Instead of courage and determination we now have churches that sit in their pews and shiver and shake - hoping God will extract them from hard times instead of standing upon faith that hard times won't matter to those who conquer.  Rapture fans aren't concerned about conquering the world for Christ as much as they want to hide from unpleasantness.  They are yellow from head to tail.  God hates a coward.

You can't conquer sin and trouble and STAND UP FOR JESUS if you're promoting cowardice in the face of battle.  Yellow Christians want to run away.  

I stand for Jesus who has promised to never leave me whatever the world throws my way. He never has!   I challenge anyone to stand up for Jesus too.   Stop acting like spoiled fearful children and get some backbone.   Reject the rapture for what it is - demonic doctrine for cowards liars and religious bigots.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited March 22, 2019 by choir loft

[Diaste]

Great post.

Someone will complain. Prepare for deletion.

 

[OldCoot]

Well, I can't speak for others that hold to a pre-trib rapture, but It doesn't matter who anyone is or what denomination or lack thereof they belong to.  Doesn't matter if they believe or don't believe in a pre-trib position or if they don't really give a rip one way or the other.   If they are part of the redeemed in Yeshua, then they get brought along.    I don't buy that partial rapture nonsense.  And justification is dependent on Yeshua, not one's works or thoughts on eschatology.

Yeah, it does cause some of us to hope.  That is why Paul called it our blessed hope and we should comfort one another with such words.  

If some are on a guilt trip and feel they need to "prove" themselves by going thru the tribulation, I won't give them a hard time.  If they choose to look forward to doom and gloom, I am ok with that.  Boy, that sure makes one want to get out of bed in the morning knowing that an evangelical purgatory is in one's future.

 A pre-trib position could be an error, though I think otherwise.  But knowing the Lord could gather us at anytime is a great motivator to keep in fellowship with Him and tell others of the reconciliation to God and freedom from condemnation available free of charge thru Yeshua's death, burial, and resurrection.  

Any other position.... "ah to heck with it, when the trib starts I'll get my ducks in a row. Till then I will just mark time.  There will be time to get my act together after the trib starts.  I'll dust off my faith and get right with Jesus.  Not like those losers who believe in the pre-trib who waste their time keeping a close relationship with Yeshua under the misguided apprehension that He could come get them at any time.  What a bunch of idiots!"

Yeah buddy!  I am full blown 100% idiot!  Count me in!!   I was called worse names when I came back from Vietnam.   Ah, those were the days.... cute hippy girls throwing bags of dog feces on returning U.S. Soldiers and calling them baby killers.  And getting home just to be ostracized by those you went to school with and once were your friends.  No one here can intimidate me in changing my position.

Frankly, I am amazed that so many inside and even outside the church spend an inordinate amount of time attacking the pre-trib position.  Yes, even New Age / UFO folks who claim to channel entities from the "Ashtar Command", whatever that is.  Satan, thru such folks has spent a lot of time trying to dismiss or negate the pre-trib position, and little to no time attacking the other positions.  I have learned over the years that when something causes so many in the world to have such a fit, there must be some merit to it.   So rail on boys and girls!

Edited March 23, 2019 by OldCoot

[Diaste]

The one and only Gathering of the elect described in detail complete with timing:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." - Matt 24

"However, after the tribulation of those days, ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And He will send out the angels to gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven." - Mark 13

"There will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among the nations, bewildered by the roaring of the sea and the surging of the waves. Men will faint from fear and anxiety over what is coming upon the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.  At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to happen, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near." - Luke 21

 

This isn't quite the same but in the same context:

"On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half the mountain moving to the north and half to the south. You will flee by My mountain valley, for it will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with Him" - Zech 14

By the evidence of scripture we stand on the facts in the case. The one and only gathering occurs after the cosmic signs and the appearance of Jesus in the clouds with great glory. This is not based on special or emotional pleading, nor a groups desire for self abuse (a sickening accusation), nor carefully crafted rhetoric, it's fact contained in the Word, by the mouth of our Lord Jesus Christ. 

All Hail the King, for He is set to return, but first the beast.

Make ready, we have our heading.

[OldCoot]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

The one and only Gathering of the elect described in detail complete with timing:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." - Matt 24

"However, after the tribulation of those days, ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And He will send out the angels to gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven." - Mark 13

"There will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among the nations, bewildered by the roaring of the sea and the surging of the waves. Men will faint from fear and anxiety over what is coming upon the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.  At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to happen, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near." - Luke 21

 

This isn't quite the same but in the same context:

"On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half the mountain moving to the north and half to the south. You will flee by My mountain valley, for it will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with Him" - Zech 14

By the evidence of scripture we stand on the facts in the case. The one and only gathering occurs after the cosmic signs and the appearance of Jesus in the clouds with great glory. This is not based on special or emotional pleading, nor a groups desire for self abuse (a sickening accusation), nor carefully crafted rhetoric, it's fact contained in the Word, by the mouth of our Lord Jesus Christ. 

All Hail the King, for He is set to return, but first the beast.

Make ready, we have our heading.

Except the Olivet discourse target audience was established in Matthew 23:37-39.... the Hebrew People.  If you want the discourse directed at the redeemed that make up the church, that would be John 13 - John 17 at the Last Supper event a few days later. 

The Elect of the Olivet discourse is the Elect of Isaiah 45:4.... Jacob (Israel).   Election does not mean individual salvation, and that is were folks get messed up confusing the two.  The Jacob (Israel) being elect is a national election, not a individual election.

If you believe that the Olivet discourse was meaning the individually elect redeemed, then you also believe the redeemed got a down grade from bride to bridesmaids to conform to the parable of the virgins.  No thanks.  I am a businessman and that sounds like bad business.  I am not about to trade in being part of the Bride of Messiah to becoming a lowly bridesmaid.  

The gathering of the elect (Isaiah 45:4) by the angels is for that purpose. The Parable of the Virgins is a exposition on Ezekiel 20:33-38.   And the Sheep and Goat judgment of Matthew 25 is the nations being judged on how they treated Israel, an exposition on Joel 3, the Elect of Isaiah 45:4.

And even if the Olivet discourse did have the individual elect redeemed in view at some point, one of the operative verses is here....

Luke 21:28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

The birth pains throughout scripture are associated with the Tribulation period of the end time, in both NT and OT.  And there is ample evidence from the scripture that the redeemed are removed and hidden at the start of the birth pains.  Isaiah, Jeremiah, and even King David mention it.   And Paul puts the final nail in on that argument.....

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

Every English translation prior to the KJV, along with the Latin Vulgate, said it is a physical departure, not a doctrinal or spiritual departure (apostasy).  Dr. Kenneth Wuest, premier Greek scholar and head of NT Greed studies at Moody Bible Institute for many decades published extensively that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is talking about the rapture.   Dr. Andy Woods (doctorates in Law and Theology, President of Chafer Theological Seminary, and Pastor) in a publication from February 2018  affirmed and expounded upon Dr. Wuest's work regarding 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

I concur with Dr. Woods when he stated...  2 Thessalonians 2:3 is pre-trib removal of the redeemed.... game, set, match.

 

Edited March 23, 2019 by OldCoot

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Except the Olivet discourse target audience was established in Matthew 23:37-39.... the Hebrew People.  If you want the discourse directed at the redeemed that make up the church, that would be John 13 - John 17 at the Last Supper event a few days later. 

The Elect of the Olivet discourse is the Elect of Isaiah 45:4.... Jacob (Israel).   Election does not mean individual salvation, and that is were folks get messed up confusing the two.  The Jacob (Israel) being elect is a national election, not a individual election.

If you believe that the Olivet discourse was meaning the individually elect redeemed, then you also believe the redeemed got a down grade from bride to bridesmaids to conform to the parable of the virgins.  No thanks.  I am a businessman and that sounds like bad business.  I am not about to trade in being part of the Bride of Messiah to becoming a lowly bridesmaid.  

The gathering of the elect (Isaiah 45:4) by the angels is for that purpose. The Parable of the Virgins is a exposition on Ezekiel 20:33-38.   And the Sheep and Goat judgment of Matthew 25 is the nations being judged on how they treated Israel, an exposition on Joel 3, the Elect of Isaiah 45:4.

And even if the Olivet discourse did have the individual elect redeemed in view at some point, one of the operative verses is here....

Luke 21:28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

The birth pains throughout scripture are associated with the Tribulation period of the end time, in both NT and OT.  And there is ample evidence from the scripture that the redeemed are removed and hidden at the start of the birth pains.  Isaiah, Jeremiah, and even King David mention it.   And Paul puts the final nail in on that argument.....

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

Every English translation prior to the KJV, along with the Latin Vulgate, said it is a physical departure, not a doctrinal or spiritual departure (apostasy).  Dr. Kenneth Wuest, premier Greek scholar and head of NT Greed studies at Moody Bible Institute for many decades published extensively that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is talking about the rapture.   Dr. Andy Woods (doctorates in Law and Theology, President of Chafer Theological Seminary, and Pastor) in a publication from February 2018  affirmed and expounded upon Dr. Wuest's work regarding 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

I concur with Dr. Woods when he stated...  2 Thessalonians 2:3 is pre-trib removal of the redeemed.... game, set, match.

 

5 For many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.

9 Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. 

 13 But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world 

23 At that time, if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe it. 

24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. 

The Jews don't believe in Jesus, they tried to kill him three times and finally succeeded at Calgary. Matt 24 is for followers of Jesus of any origin.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise. - Gal 3

Hence, if you are not of Israel then you are not of Christ.

"To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints" - Romans 1

"Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may rest on grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17 As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.” He is our father in the presence of God, in whom he believed, the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being what does not yet exist"  Romans 4

Written to all in Rome called to be saints. Again, if Abraham is not our father, if we are not the seed of Abraham, we are not in Christ.

"I ask then, did they stumble so as to lose their share? Certainly not! " - Romans 1

"Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER." - Romans 11

"For God has consigned all men to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all." - Romans 11

"I will not presume to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obedience by word and deed, by the power of signs and wonders, and by the power of the Spirit of God. So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ." - Romans 15

" Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they descendants of Abraham? So am I. Are they servants of Christ? " - 2 Cor 11

A Jew, and Israeli, a descendant of Abraham, sent to the Gentiles? Clearly no division between Jew and Gentile in the mind of our Lord.

Cite 10,000 scholars if you wish. The appeal to authority is fallacious as an argument. The word that appears in 2 Thess 2:3 is 'apostasia' and it has been defined as rebellion or revolt since Paul used it 2000 years ago. All that matters here is the fact we find this word in that place, where it originally appeared. No group of scholars can ever change that no matter the specious reasoning applied.

Most telling is the abundant choices Paul had in the Koine Greek for physical departure: on foot, cargo, by ship, to another place and none were used here. Paul said 'apostasia' and it's not a mistake.

[OldCoot]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

The Jews don't believe in Jesus, they tried to kill him three times and finally succeeded at Calgary. Matt 24 is for followers of Jesus of any origin.

There is nothing in the passage that says anyone going thru it is a redeemed member of Yeshua.  Even those "taken" in the passage of Matthew 24:37-42 are taken for destruction, not taken for eternal life.   The context is talking about the days of Noah and refers to those were were taken (destroyed) in the flood.

And the Elect of the passage is the Elect of Isaiah 45:4...

Isaiah 45:4  For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.

to state that the elect of Matthew 24 is elect believers, then that would conflict with Matthew 25, the parable fo virgins.  It is all the same discourse.  It is disingenuous to go changing who the elect are in mid stream.  Those virgins are bridesmaids, whereas the redeemed elect that are part of Messiah are the bride of Yeshua.   Unless one is schizophrenic, Elect cannot alternate between groups in the same discourse.  

No way of getting around it.  The passage clearly is speaking of Jacob (Israel) which, as a national identity, is YHVH's Elect.  The church is not a nation.  And Paul makes that distinction.

Romans 10:19 But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says:
“I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation,
I will move you to anger by a foolish nation.”

Romans 11:26-29 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Edited March 24, 2019 by OldCoot

[WilliamL]

On 3/22/2019 at 7:12 AM, choir loft said:

"I pray NOT that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one." - Jesus as quoted by John 17:15 

 Which part of NOT do Rapture fans NOT understand?  

Context context context. Always check the context. The world is full of denominational doctrines derived from verses taken out of context. This is a prime example.

John 17:12 “While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You... 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world."

The first phrase in boldface shows us that Jesus was only speaking about his disciples that were with Him at that time. You have generalized verse 15 to make it seem to apply to the whole Church throughout history. You deceive yourself and others with such a false presumption, by taking the verse out of its context.

John 14:3 “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also."

Where was Jesus going, that He promises to later cause His people to come to also? Let's see, He was going to God in heaven, thus not "in the world." He promises to take His people there in the future, not in the world. Ergo, He will be taking them "from the world." Like, duh.

 

[choir loft]

42 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Context context context. Always check the context. The world is full of denominational doctrines derived from verses taken out of context. This is a prime example.

John 17:12 “While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You... 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world."

The first phrase in boldface shows us that Jesus was only speaking about his disciples that were with Him at that time. You have generalized verse 15 to make it seem to apply to the whole Church throughout history. You deceive yourself and others with such a false presumption, by taking the verse out of its context.

John 14:3 “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also."

Where was Jesus going, that He promises to later cause His people to come to also? Let's see, He was going to God in heaven, thus not "in the world." He promises to take His people there in the future, not in the world. Ergo, He will be taking them "from the world." Like, duh.

 

Again a pathetic effort to misquote scripture so as to justify an errant dogma.     You call to check context, but do not give examples of anywhere in scripture where God has vertically evacuated the faithful during troubled times.   HE does not, because THAT is not His intent.   When Moses led the Hebrews toward the Red Sea did they get an airlift out of trouble or did they WALK THROUGH TROUBLE?   Now THAT's context !!!

The issue here is clever manipulation of particular parts of a single line of scripture while claiming that this micro-management is contextual which it most certainly is not.

The rapture is an anti-semitic exclusionist dogma of American Protestants only!!!   Jews are not considered to be of value in the Protestant rapture ideology and neither are Roman Catholics or Orthodox religions which compose the majority of Christendom.  Only American Protestants are to be beamed out in this idiotic doctrine.  MOST churches throughout the world have rejected the dogma because of its divisive illogical suppositions taken entirely out of Biblical context.    

References to CONTEXT apply to a wide usage of concepts.   The Biblical CONTEXT of God's dealing with man  is to be with man throughout trouble, not to excuse him from it.   

The rapture is a doctrine of cowards.  

I've heard it over and over again mentioned in church.   Christians quiver and quake in their pews and seats hoping the rapture will come along and evacuate them from global tribulation.  WHERE IS FAITH in Christ in all this?   Does Jesus not promise to be with His sons and daughter throughout difficulty?  Does the Bible not point to divine providence throughout trouble?  Where is faith in all this?  It is nowhere because it doesn't exist in the rapture ethos.  Cowards fear the future and look for flying saucers or Captain Kirk to beam them out.   

I and my family stand with Jesus Christ.  

Our faith is in Him only.  To save us every way a man and his family can be saved.   To be with us in life or death should it come.   We are determined to be of good courage and to stand firm and resolute in the hope of Christ to keep us.   Rapture cowards cannot and do not do this because they look for an excuse to run like yellow dogs from trouble.   Where is the faith?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited March 26, 2019 by choir loft