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Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position


George

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18 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Luke 21:26 “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape out of all these things [in context, the things of the Great Tribulation] that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.

Rev. 7:9 After these things [in context, of the Great Tribulation] I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb... 14 These are the ones who come out of the Great Tribulation...

Jesus told us that the time will come when escaping will be a good thing. But some folks would rather boast in their own noble courage. Have at it.

After all, don't the Jews yearly celebrate their Exodus-era escape from Egypt? Maybe they should have stayed and toughed it out.

 

YOU are once again claiming contextual support for an ideology that is neither suggested nor promoted by the Bible.

In your quote of Luke 21:26 you claim the context is the Great Tribulation.   The reader ought to note that the phrase "Great Tribulation" is itself taken out of context.  The phrase is used in Revelation and the gospel of Matthew to describe a time prior to the Second coming of Christ.   Luke's words DO NOT.   Luke's words are speaking to trouble in the world, which all men have encountered at all times and in all places.  Luke's gospel addresses confidence in Christ to deliver from trouble THROUGH trouble at any time and in any place.   WilliamL is deliberately skewing Luke's words to support rapture ideology by claiming contextual support which does not exist.  Instead it promotes the cowardly dogma of the rapture.   Christians are called to strive in confidence IN times of trouble, not to seek escape from the world.

In your quote from Revelation 7:9, the phrase refers to the context of JUDGMENT, not rapture escapism.    

THE ONLY WAY TO ESCAPE THE JUDGMENT OF THE SINNER is by way of the blood of Christ, not a vertical escape from the midst of trouble.  

The passage in Revelation is addressing the time of JUDGMENT and does not justify the false doctrine of the rapture.  The rapture isn't even mentioned in the quoted verse, yet WilliamL interprets it through the filter of his belief in the rapture as the cornerstone of Christian salvation and justification.  This is an example of demonic deception with regard to the doctrine of the rapture.  Those that believe this lie of satan continually feel the need to subvert the Word of God and the faith of those who follow Christ day by day.

The Christian is called to courage and stalwart resolution in the midst of daily strife and worry and possible loss.  None who are justified in Christ will be taken out of the world before trouble comes, during the half-time show or during sudden death OT.  Jesus will return at the appropriate time, NOT for Protestant American Christians only but for all the world to see.

 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. - Jesus as quoted by John 17:15

Jesus is calling the Christian to battle with the world and has promised NOT to take us out of it but to go on before us, with us, and to cover our backs.   The Christian experience is about walking through life CONFIDENT and in GOOD COURAGE in the ability and the expressed intention of God to save us NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS.

It is the cowards intent to escape from trouble, but that is not what God intends.

God hates a coward and those who accept the rapture dogma risk dwelling upon fear rather than confidence and conquest in the midst of trouble.

Bring on the tribulation.  

I know God is with me and I know that those who cower in the shadows will be stripped of the little they try to hide from it.   I stand upright in faith and hope in Christ.

Rapture believers are only concerned with promoting a theory with no backbone - with justifying empty buzz words and slogans NOT the Word of God NOT courage.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

PS  

References to cowards or the lack of courage demonstrated by cowardly ideology are not meant to imply an observation of any person's character.  All references refer to a religious philosophy or ideology. On the other hand, if a reader assumes the shoe fits in his or her circumstance, that is no fault of mine.   The warning is intended for all eyes and ears, not anyone in particular.

Edited by choir loft
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2 hours ago, choir loft said:

 

You continue to mix oranges with apples.  That's fine with fruit salad, but it doesn't work with the Word of God - with religious philosophy.  There are certain things that are immutable and certain things that are false.  Accepting both is an aberration of logic.   It's like trying to mix oil and water.  Accepting both is the condition St. Paul refers to as being double-minded.  

"A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways." - James 1:8

As you know the book of James is concerned with practical application of faith in real time - in real life - in real situations.   Today there's a separation between reality and religious philosophy that Christians wrongly embrace.  It should be one and the same, but in the post-modern church religious theory and religious practice are two different things, hence the label of double-mindedness.  Today's Christians generally accept sin and call morality a four letter word - so as to agree with the world.  The same is true for the philosophical aberration known as the rapture.  It is religious cowardice and God hates it.

I don't know why you brought up Vietnam.  That was a political situation that has been completely forgotten by the present generation on both sides of the Pacific.  I personally got more respect from Communist guerrillas back in the 70's than I got from Christians back home - then or now.  I discovered the truth of it when I shed my uniform and put on civvies.  Ideological differences are not understood by Americans and even less by professing Christians.  The only thing Christians understand is buzz words and slogans.  Trying to correct their thinking is like trying to raise the Titanic.  You only succeed in bits and pieces.

It takes a modicum of courage to recognize religious deception and to act accordingly against it.  For now at least one's life doesn't hang in the balance because of it - not in America anyway.  The logic of one's faith in the eyes of the world does matter!  It goes without saying that the veracity of the gospel is not what it once was for a variety of reasons.  The rapture is one of the illogical things the world as well as thinking Christians cannot and will not accept.

You said that you are confident in Christ in whom you've placed your trust.  Well said.  Unfortunately faith in Christ isn't the same thing as accepting an ideology like the rapture as truth.  In point of fact, the rapture does NOTHING positive with regard to faith in Christ.  Your own words seem to agree with this statement.  

Rapture believers act as though the dogma is the cornerstone of their stand for Jesus, but in fact it has nothing whatsoever to do with Bible based faith or prophecy.

The rapture DOES erode confidence in Christ's ability to deliver the believer from trouble.  

Instead of standing in confidence in the face of trouble, post-modern Christians are persuaded to believe a lie that they will be excused from life threatening troubles by means of evac into the clouds.  It doesn't work that way! Christians aren't called to serve in a cold LZ.  We are called to battle as Christ goes on before us, with us and even as He covers our six.    

During my military service I lived through several times when divine providence delivered me and the men I was with from death (sometimes at the hands of our own people, but that's another story).  Consequently I was politicized and have never believed the government about anything.  The same is true for religious leaders who promote cowardice in the face of conflict - by means of the rapture ideology (among other things).  

Jesus won't return before the time, during the half-time show, or during OT to evac Protestant Christians only.   He will return at the appropriate time for all the world to see.

Think about it brother.   It will cost you nothing to consider it and you will lose nothing by rejecting the rapture lie.

that's me hollering from the choir loft......

Wow.  You didn't make a dent, but it is interesting how those who disagree with the pre-trib will attribute it to all kinds of ills that befall mankind.  

Not sure how the pre-trib erodes confidence in Christ's ability to deliver the believer from trouble.  You stated that you felt divine providence delivered you in your military service.  Not sure how any rapture position affected that.  But to equate anecdotal experience and the GT period, I am not convinced you have a grasp on what the purpose of the GT period is.

And what of the brothers and sisters in N. Korea, Iraq, Iran, Sudan, etc that are going thru their trials?   Will not the Lord show that same deliverance for them that you are claiming?    Again, it all centers around what the purpose of the GT period is in comparison to the existence today in the world.

But if you choose to see Yeshua as not coming till later in the game, that is totally your call.  I don't accept that, but I don't mind that you do.  I think it all comes down to an understanding of what the GT period is all about.  I don't believe it is a protestant purgatory where we prove our metal.   Scripture seems to suggest the GT period has other motivations in mind.  And those motivations have nothing to do with those already redeemed when it starts.

And I really don't see Yeshua essentially following this pattern that the other positions seem to like....   "We will get betrothed.  One day I will come for you, but before I do, I will beat the living snot out of you for 7 years, then I will come and we will have dinner.  Comfort one another with those words."

Again, I really could care less if anyone thinks I am in error.  None of this has anything to do with justification, so no need that we call each other names or nasty stuff.  But it seems that many don't just disagree with the pre-trib, but despise it enough to cause their blood to boil.  How can something like that cause so much angst?   And why is it that secular writings also spend an inordinate amount of time explaining away the pre-trib model, but waste very little time on the other positions?   Satan seems to be just as vexed by the pre-trib concept as many in the church.  

When one steps back and looks at all this, it almost lends credence to the pre-trib model.  For me anyway, I am reminded of Billy Shakespeare... "me thinks ye doest protest too much".

I know I waste little effort explaining the errors of the other positions.  It is said when determining counterfeit money, the best way to learn how to see the counterfeit is to study the real money.  Likewise, I really am comfortable with the  pre-trib model and the scripture that supports it that I don't feel threatened by the others so I really don't try to take apart those positions.  C'est la vie.

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2 hours ago, choir loft said:

 The same is true for the philosophical aberration known as the rapture.  It is religious cowardice and God hates it.

I think you have that misplaced.  You perceive it as religious cowardice and you hate it.   The scripture says it is our blessed hope.  So who should I believe, you or the HS?  No brainer.  

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6 hours ago, OldCoot said:

And I really don't see Yeshua essentially following this pattern that the other positions seem to like....   "We will get betrothed.  One day I will come for you, but before I do, I will beat the living snot out of you for 7 years, then I will come and we will have dinner.  Comfort one another with those words."

Strawman. 

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5 hours ago, OldCoot said:

I think you have that misplaced.  You perceive it as religious cowardice and you hate it.   The scripture says it is our blessed hope.  So who should I believe, you or the HS?  No brainer.  

He means the popularized idea of the 'rapture', not the fact.

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13 minutes ago, Diaste said:

He means the popularized idea of the 'rapture', not the fact.

I guess that begs the question, which popularized idea?  Pre-trib is most definitely the minority opinion. I think anyone who does a casual study of the various positions over the centuries would have to admit that if they are honest.    Most of the formal church has tended to be amillenial or post-trib, with preterism hitting all time highs in some theological circles.  Mid-Trib seems to get less attention, but still has more adherents that pre-trib.    Yeah, pre-trib is definitely the black sheep of the flock of eschatological concepts.   It suffers an inordinate amount of abuse given the small percentage of formal adherents to the idea.  

Surprisingly, I have never felt intimidated being in that black sheep category.  And I have no angst against the other positions though I disagree on many points with them.  I have no problem stating what position I hold and why, but I waste little effort trying to tear apart the other concepts.  I guess  I just don't feel threatened by the other positions.

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On 3/29/2019 at 10:18 AM, OldCoot said:

I think you have that misplaced.  You perceive it as religious cowardice and you hate it.   The scripture says it is our blessed hope.  So who should I believe, you or the HS?  No brainer.  

Scripture does NOT describe the rapture as our blessed hope.  

The phrase "blessed hope" is employed as an interpretation of scripture linked to escapist rapture ideology.  

First: The word rapture never appears in scripture at all.   It is as fictitious as the popular dogma.

Second: The blessed hope mentioned in Titus DOES NOT refer to the event of the Second Coming of Christ.  Titus 2:13, like all scripture references about the rapture, is TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT.  That scripture actually refers to what Christians are expected to be doing "as we await" Jesus' appearance.  It does not refer directly to the EVENT of the Second Coming.  Rapture fans ignore this point and would have us believe it justifies their false dogma !!!!  

And what is it we are expected to be doing as we await Jesus' return?  Telling each other lies about the rapture or renouncing worldly passions and ungodliness?  Read it again and learn something.  Read it again and ACT upon its advice.   It is NOT about a false rapture.  It IS about living sensible upright and godly lives as we wait.  Christian living is what Titus is about.  It's called context, but rapture fans ignore that too.  Instead they justify sin and hope for Captain Kirk to beam them away from the consequences of their actions.   That's called spiritual irresponsibility and moral cowardice.  

I've heard congregations being encouraged to sin, "so that grace may abound" coupled with rapture slogans in church sermons.   Am I to suppose no one else has heard this?   I doubt it.   There is no such thing as a license to sin.  God will NOT excuse it or sweep it under the table. (1 Peter 4:17) If the reader supposes He will, then he or she is doing themselves a gross disservice.

This is the nut of the problem.   The rapture is about some future fiction, not about what Christians are to be doing NOW.   This is why its a doctrine of demons.  

Interpreters of the false doctrine of the rapture will use any method, any buzz word or any slogan to justify their false doctrine.  Proponents of the rapture dogma refuse to admit to this practice.  

Rapture doesn't have anything to do with the Second Coming of Christ.   There are at least three separate theories describing the rapture, each of which has Jesus returning two three or even four times.  The Bible says He returns a second time, not a third or forth or whatever.   Rapture fans can't even be counted on to agree which of the false advents of Christ are correct - pre, mid or post tribulation.  

Does this illogic bother any of them?  No.  

Doesn't this serve as cause for any of them to reexamine their doctrine for flaws?  Absolutely not.  

Fans of rapture demonic doctrine stick to their story no matter what facts and arguments and logic are presented otherwise.  This is a matter of dogmatic adherence to satan, not a search for truth or even a positive basis of faith.  It's a diversion of satan to take attention away from what a Christian ought to be doing NOW - replacing it with a false notion about a future that will never unfold as it has been interpreted in Christian supermarket tabloid trash.   

Rapture fans have made up their minds and cannot be persuaded by facts or logic to abandon their false position.   Their own doctrine is riddled with illogic and untruth, yet they refuse to see it for what it really is - a lie of satan.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

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On 3/29/2019 at 9:57 AM, OldCoot said:

....

And I really don't see Yeshua essentially following this pattern that the other positions seem to like....   "We will get betrothed.  One day I will come for you, but before I do, I will beat the living snot out of you for 7 years, then I will come and we will have dinner.  Comfort one another with those words."

......

 I like the quote, but disagree with its application.

Why would God "beat the living snot out of the world?"    You left that part out.

God is the Lord of history, while man is Lord of nature.  

The Lord of nature has botched the job.   The Lord of history has patiently waited for man to straighten out the mess he's made, but has observed that man is unwilling to do so.  Consequently the corrections that need to be applied will of necessity be painful and bloody.   History has shown over and over again that when man refuses to correct abuse blood is always required of him - always.   You know this as well as I do.  Christ will not return until the full measure of blood has been counted.  

Jesus likened the tribulation to a woman in childbirth.  

Shall God murder the expectant mother and deliver the child by methods other than those of natural process?  Shall God deliver His kingdom like a premature infant?  He will not, if Biblical prophecy is considered to be true.  Everything God has promised will happen at the appropriate time - including the Second Coming.

The argument is about the rapture, not the Second Coming.  That's another demonic twist rapture fans will refuse to admit.   

The rapture is about dinner in the sky prior to ... during... or following trouble on earth.   It has nothing to do with depending upon Christ in the midst of trouble - nothing to do with good courage in the saving grace of God promised to all who will accept it.  In point of fact, rapture fans REJECT God's offer of grace in trouble.  They won't admit to that either.   No liar likes to be called a liar and no coward likes to be be reminded of his lack of backbone.   Christianity is about courage and a resolute heart in hope of the future - not about escaping it. Rapture fans seek to run away from it - like cowards.  I welcome trouble because in it I shall discover Christ's strong arm to save.  Rapture fans seek no part of this discovery.

The Second Coming is about God putting His foot upon the earth so as to bring personal and political wickedness to a screeching halt.  All three major religions accept this in theory.  Their application, however, is somewhat different.   Rapture fans miss the point entirely because they think they'll be having TV dinner in the sky as they watch the mayhem on earth like a celestial version of the Evening News.  Christianity isn't a spectator sport !!!

Nothing could be further from the truth, from logic, or from prophecy itself than the rapture doctrine.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited by choir loft
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20 minutes ago, choir loft said:

 I like the quote, but disagree with its application.

Why would God "beat the living snot out of the world?"    You left that part out.

I would ask then, what is the purpose of the tribulation period?  What is its ultimate goal? Who is its major focus?

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34 minutes ago, choir loft said:

The Second Coming is about God putting His foot upon the earth so as to bring personal and political wickedness to a screeching halt.  All three major religions accept this in theory.

And those who hold to it really have a myopic understanding of the scripture.   Evil with still be in the kingdom.  Sin will still be a part of the kingdom.  And yes, even death will still be a part of the kingdom.   All 1000 years of it.  And it will culminate with one last major rebellion against the Lord when Satan is released and foments a worldwide rebellion.  Revelation 20 and Psalms 2.  

So if the second coming is to bring personal and political wickedness to a screeching halt, then the scripture sure paints another picture. The kingdom parables of Matthew 13 show a less that rosy picture as well as Ezekiel where those who will not go up to Jerusalem for the feast of Tabernacles will have rain withheld from their land.  Isaiah is pretty clear that death will still be in the kingdom.   And Psalms and Revelation show us that Yeshua will be ruling with a rod of iron.  Well if he had brought all wickedness to a screeching halt, what would be the purpose of ruling as a heavy handed dictator?   No, there will still be discontent and rebellion in the kingdom that will have to be dealt with.

Even when given ideal conditions, a virtual restoration of the the Garden of Eden existence, the sinful heart of man remains.  Those that survive the tribulation period and go into the kingdom will still be mortal.  They will repopulate the earth.  They will still have their sin nature intact.  And eventually, almost the entire kingdom will rebel.  The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Edited by OldCoot
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