Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[WilliamL]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Look, you can't just pick three verses out of the many and think you have a big enough sampling by which to make a judgment, especially one about the grammar of a language you know nothing about!

First of all, the variant vowel pointing of the word in question are more than just the three I chose to cite out of the first chapter of Genesis. There are many more in later chapters of Genesis. Which book, by the way, also uses two different feminine endings of the word. But you can choose to ignore all these things, because you have made up your mind, and refuse to consider anything to the contrary. So be it.

As far as knowing nothing about the grammar of Hebrew: it is you that have demonstrated that you don't even know the difference between a noun construct and a noun absolute, so you are hardly sometime to set themselves us as the expert on the language.

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

And, Hebrew has NEVER been a "dying language."

It is generally accepted, although some argue otherwise, that the vowel points were added by the Masoretes in order to preserve the proper pronunciation of the biblical text, which was being lost. Today's standard Israeli pronunciation of Hebrew is significantly different than the ancient pronunciation of Hebrew, a fact which no one familiar with the topic disputes. Different Jewish lineages, such as northern European Ashkenazies, southern European Sephardics, and the Yemenites all have different pronunciations of Hebrew in both vowel and consonant. That is prima facie evidence of a language having lost its original nature, i.e. dying as to its original pronunciation and form.

So if the Masoretes used different vowel points and endings in Genesis for the word shmym, I must presume that they had a purpose for doing so, and were not just being sloppy. You are welcome to presume otherwise.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

First of all, brother, you want to speak for God?  You go right ahead.
But if you don't want any correction, don't try to slap me back with saying that I am somehow that when I say your thinking is your own, that I am blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
You just aint't special buddy.
 

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

in all of Genesis 1 and 2, there is absolutely NO MENTION of a "Heaven (as God's Abode) before there was a sky!" There's only ONE "shaamayim,"

God is NOT limited to any such "God's Abode!" He exists throughout His creation!

1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven,

Now you can say that John is looking up to the sky, and I would agree.  This is your "heaven".

2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne.

This is not your "heaven".
This is a place that is not in the sky.
It is the abode of God.

Since God existed before creating any of the sky in which the DOOR appeared, then your contention that all "heavens" in the Bible is air or space - really falls short of what Scripture reveals about the third Heaven of the very Presence of the Father.

And to get TO the third Heaven of the Presence of the Father, John had to go through a door in the sky; those two "heavens" are not one and the same.

Saying they are one and the same is YOUR thinking - buddy-ro.

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

First of all, brother, you want to speak for God?  You go right ahead.
But if you don't want any correction, don't try to slap me back with saying that I am somehow that when I say your thinking is your own, that I am blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
You just aint't special buddy.
 

1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven,

Now you can say that John is looking up to the sky, and I would agree.  This is your "heaven".

2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne.

This is not your "heaven".
This is a place that is not in the sky.
It is the abode of God.

Since God existed before creating any of the sky in which the DOOR appeared, then your contention that all "heavens" in the Bible is air or space - really falls short of what Scripture reveals about the third Heaven of the very Presence of the Father.

And to get TO the third Heaven of the Presence of the Father, John had to go through a door in the sky; those two "heavens" are not one and the same.

Saying they are one and the same is YOUR thinking - buddy-ro.

Shalom, Marcus.

First, all I'm saying is that I KNOW that it was God through His Spirit who has done a work in my life. Only He could make it all work together as He has done. For you to belittle what has been done is tantamount to belittling the One who did the work, especially when YOU WEREN'T THERE! That's all.

Secondly, a "door" and a "throne?" That's all you've got to make you think there's a "God's abode" different than the shaamayim/ouranos God created? Need I remind you that the New Jerusalem has TWELVE such gates with doors? Or that the Scriptures SPECIFICALLY say that the throne of God and of the Lamb are within the New Jerusalem?

Believe what you want to believe, buddy and brother; I've said what I needed to say, and I'm done.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

50 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

For you to belittle what has been done is tantamount to belittling the One who did the work, especially when YOU WEREN'T THERE! That's all.

You're done?

Finally.  And don't tell me that if I criticize your take that some random thought that pops into head is from the Holy Spirit and that by doing so I'm blaspheming the Holy Spirit.  That's delusional thinking there brother.

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

First of all, the variant vowel pointing of the word in question are more than just the three I chose to cite out of the first chapter of Genesis. There are many more in later chapters of Genesis. Which book, by the way, also uses two different feminine endings of the word. But you can choose to ignore all these things, because you have made up your mind, and refuse to consider anything to the contrary. So be it.

As far as knowing nothing about the grammar of Hebrew: it is you that have demonstrated that you don't even know the difference between a noun construct and a noun absolute, so you are hardly sometime to set themselves us as the expert on the language.

It is generally accepted, although some argue otherwise, that the vowel points were added by the Masoretes in order to preserve the proper pronunciation of the biblical text, which was being lost. Today's standard Israeli pronunciation of Hebrew is significantly different than the ancient pronunciation of Hebrew, a fact which no one familiar with the topic disputes. Different Jewish lineages, such as northern European Ashkenazies, southern European Sephardics, and the Yemenites all have different pronunciations of Hebrew in both vowel and consonant. That is prima facie evidence of a language having lost its original nature, i.e. dying as to its original pronunciation and form.

So if the Masoretes used different vowel points and endings in Genesis for the word shmym, I must presume that they had a purpose for doing so, and were not just being sloppy. You are welcome to presume otherwise.

Shalom, WilliamL.

Look, all I'm saying is that the various spellings (which are NOT technically different "spellings" since the Hebrew letters are ALL consonants) of "shmym" do NOT make different meanings of the concept! When one uses the vowel pointing to suggest that two (or more) different words with different meanings are involved, even within the context of Genesis 1 and 2 (the Creation account), one is making a HUGE Hebrew-grammatical mistake!

Yes, there are two occurrences that use a feminine form, "hashaamaymaah/hashaamaaymaah," Genesis 15:5 (where God tells Avraham to "gaze with pleasure at her" and count the stars, if he can) and Genesis 28:12 (where Ya`aqoV dreams about a ladder whose top "touches her" as a man touches his wife), and I believe this is feminine because the word for night, "laylaah," is also feminine, further suggesting that God is talking about the "NIGHT sky." However, they are BOTH still talking about the "SKY!"

Is that so difficult to understand or believe?

[Marcus O'Reillius]

So since when did the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath thread become hijacked into the all sky all the time thread?

[WilliamL]

18 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

So since when did the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath thread become hijacked into the all sky all the time thread?

What else is new, but that the author of confusion will continually try to obfuscate anything promoting the way of truth? Confusion and falsity can only increase the closer we approach the end of this age.

[Retrobyter]

On 10/10/2016 at 10:18 AM, WilliamL said:

What else is new, but that the author of confusion will continually try to obfuscate anything promoting the way of truth? Confusion and falsity can only increase the closer we approach the end of this age.

Shalom, WilliamL.

Yeah, that's it. NOT!

Has it ever occurred to you that the "author of confusion" has already struck with the "heaven by and by" lie?

God is the Creator of all. Period. So, why would He have a "heaven" that is isolated from that Creation when He PERSONALLY PERMEATES ALL OF CREATION?! In fact, there isn't a NUTRINO IN ALL THE GALAXIES OF THE UNIVERSE that He doesn't know INTIMATELY! However, He also PERSONALLY created the earth, including its atmosphere, for mankind and He created mankind for the earth!

Biblically, a renovated earth and its atmosphere are the ULTIMATE DESTINATION for God's people. With the addition of a LITERAL, CONCRETELY SOLID CITY, the New Jerusalem, we'll have a home that is just as real as anything we know now - better, of course. God's HOUSE will be our home, and the New Earth will be our BACK YARD!

Regarding the future, the Jehovah's Witnesses have the right idea, except that they don't know the importance of the children of Israel in God's Plan for the future, AND they do NOT know about the Great Exchange (2 Corinthians 5:17-21). They believe that they have to be good in their own power to be accepted by God. They DO, however, have GREAT art work! (That imagination and art work are purely the result of their commitment to their beliefs.)

[Sister]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2016 by Sister
moved to the correct section

[Marcus O'Reillius]

I would opine, that the time period covered in Daniel 7:25 and Rev 13:7  - is the first half of the one 'seven'.
And that the Great Tribulation follows the midpoint abomination of Rev 13:14-15.
And that the Great Tribulation is so terrible for the Elect because of its two laws: Rev 13:15-17.

After this begins, the Elect will die wholesale, by outright execution, and by dehydration/starvation/exposure. 
This is why Jesus told us in the Olivet Discourse, that the Great Tribulation will be cut short, abruptly, and to a "nub".
And in Revelation, the events of the Day of the Lord, which ends the Great Tribulation follow in chapter 14.