Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[toknowthetruth]

Hope you don't mind my asking questions. Could you fill me in on your interpretation of when the rapture happens and when the wrath of God happens? I can't quite seem to get a clear picture from your posts up till now. Seems you were saying that the Wiki explanation of a mid-trib rapture was incorrect and that at the end of the GT will be the rapture a little before the end of the seventieth week of Daniel. And that the wrath starts at that point and continues till the end of the seventieth week. Is that a yea or a nay?

[Diaste]

Hope you don't mind my asking questions. Could you fill me in on your interpretation of when the rapture happens and when the wrath of God happens? I can't quite seem to get a clear picture from your posts up till now. Seems you were saying that the Wiki explanation of a mid-trib rapture was incorrect and that at the end of the GT will be the rapture a little before the end of the seventieth week of Daniel. And that the wrath starts at that point and continues till the end of the seventieth week. Is that a yea or a nay?

I think the Wiki definition was supposed to be for a pre wrath rapture. The editor of the posting seemed to confuse a mid trib gathering and a pre wrath, or post trib(great tribulation is actually cut short before the end of the week making a post trib gathering a pre end of the 70th week gathering). The editor of the Wiki posting said the pre wrath position supports a gathering after the beginning of sorrows and before the wrath of God. This idea skips 'great tribulation' which begins after,  "15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand"(Matt 24), which happen in the middle of the week, "In the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him." (Daniel 9:27) 

But this period of time between the A of D and the Coming of the Son of Man is NOT the Wrath of God. Many people like to equate this time period with the wrath of God. It's a terrible time to be sure. Never been a time like it and there never will be, but it's not Gods Wrath. There is ample biblical evidence to prove that 'great tribulation' and the Wrath of God are not the same and I can provide that if you like. But my thoughts on that are as follows. since I know the Wrath of God has to be the worst possible time ever, I mean, he destroyed the world with water in 40 days, and a single angel slew 185,000 in one night, it would not be possible for the wrath of God to last more than a short time. God is just too powerful and when his wrath is unleashed it's not mitigated to any great extent. In other words, from what the scripture says, the Wrath of God is the pronounced sentence against the evil of the world and God is now executing that sentence. Swiftly. Completely. Finally.

As far as the schedule of the 70th week, yes, the outline looks like you say, 7 years with three divisions, Beginning of Sorrows(first half), 'great tribulation'( starts at A of D) and the Wrath of God, both in the last half of the 70th week. However, it's only the end of 'great tribulation' for the people of God. 'Great tribulation' is the fire that refines the people of God. I imagine that the rest of the people on earth are doing all the normal things they always did, which scripture says explicitly. After 'great tribulation' ends the beast continues until his 42 months run their course. Once the trouble of God's people is over and the Lord gathers us up to Him, the Day of the Lord begins and the Wrath of God falls on the beast, his kingdom, and the rest of the rebels on the face of the planet.

 

 

[Diaste]

Odd, I always thought of the pre-wrath as a nuanced post-trib position, although I did have a book once that detailed it as a nuanced pre-trib position. Is the term pre-wrath copyrighted or is there an official Pre-Wrath Association which can define it? Hard to defend something if once doesn't even know the position's specifics.

According to the great theology site Wikipedia:

 

The Prewrath rapture is one of several premillennial views on the end-times events among evangelical Christians, and states that Christians will be raptured at the end of a time called the Beginning of Sorrows that occurs in the first half of the seventieth week of the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks, and before the day of the Lord's wrath (God's wrath). The prewrath position emphasizes the biblical distinction between tribulation (which Christians have been promised) and the wrath of God (which Christians have been promised deliverance/salvation from).

According to the Prewrath perspective, the great tribulation begins 3.5 years after the Antichrist "makes a covenant with the many" (Daniel 9:27), in the middle of "Daniel's 70th week." The 70th week is a reference to Daniel 9:24, where each day of the week corresponds to a year (for a total of seven years). After the first 3.5 years, the Antichrist will make himself known with the abomination that causes desolation, and he will reign for 3.5 years (42 months or 1260 days). The latter half of the 3.5 years is characterized by the Antichrist deceiving the world and persecuting the church.

Hi,

Love this discussion and I just have to chime in. The pre-wrath thing is something I have studied out over the decades since I first became acquainted with the return of Jesus and the gathering of the elect. At first I read every book I could find on the subject, all were pre-trib. That position always left me unsettled, as if I was somehow in the right crowd, in the know as it were, but still incomplete and searching. So much of the pre-trib position comes from the bias of certain ideas that have been rationalized into existence. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing pre-trib, though there is much there to bash, this is just an introduction by way of a little history. In any case I stumbled across a book by M. Rosenthal that helped me to search in a different way, and the eyes of my heart were opened! In all the study i did over the years the only 'rapture' that makes sense, from all the verses related to such an event, is the one we like to call pre-wrath. Some seem to think it's also a post trib event but I think the trib continues until the 70 weeks is complete, though the tribulation of the saints is over at the coming of Jesus, or pre Wrath of God, probably why this rapture is called post-trib by some.

The objection I have to the above Wiki quote has to do with this statement:  states that Christians will be raptured at the end of a time called the Beginning of Sorrows that occurs in the first half of the seventieth week of the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks, and before the day of the Lord's wrath

Pre-wrath actually states that believers are gathered at the end of 'great tribulation' and before the wrath of God falls, and this on the same day, likely moments before the Wrath of God begins at the Day of the Lord. "Great tribulation" begins at the middle of the 70th week when the beginning of sorrows ends. Believers endure 'great tribulation' for a period of less than 3.5 years until the Lord returns to gather us up and fight against the rebellious armies of the world.

Looking forward to a fruitful discussion!

Hmm. I'm a little confused? OK, so if I get you right pre-wrath is similar to post-trib, just that you consider the wrath as part of the 3.5 years and that the rapture happens just before the wrath a little before the end of the 3.5 years of the last week of Daniel?

Yep.

[toknowthetruth]

Odd, I always thought of the pre-wrath as a nuanced post-trib position, although I did have a book once that detailed it as a nuanced pre-trib position. Is the term pre-wrath copyrighted or is there an official Pre-Wrath Association which can define it? Hard to defend something if once doesn't even know the position's specifics.

According to the great theology site Wikipedia:

 

The Prewrath rapture is one of several premillennial views on the end-times events among evangelical Christians, and states that Christians will be raptured at the end of a time called the Beginning of Sorrows that occurs in the first half of the seventieth week of the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks, and before the day of the Lord's wrath (God's wrath). The prewrath position emphasizes the biblical distinction between tribulation (which Christians have been promised) and the wrath of God (which Christians have been promised deliverance/salvation from).

According to the Prewrath perspective, the great tribulation begins 3.5 years after the Antichrist "makes a covenant with the many" (Daniel 9:27), in the middle of "Daniel's 70th week." The 70th week is a reference to Daniel 9:24, where each day of the week corresponds to a year (for a total of seven years). After the first 3.5 years, the Antichrist will make himself known with the abomination that causes desolation, and he will reign for 3.5 years (42 months or 1260 days). The latter half of the 3.5 years is characterized by the Antichrist deceiving the world and persecuting the church.

Hi,

Love this discussion and I just have to chime in. The pre-wrath thing is something I have studied out over the decades since I first became acquainted with the return of Jesus and the gathering of the elect. At first I read every book I could find on the subject, all were pre-trib. That position always left me unsettled, as if I was somehow in the right crowd, in the know as it were, but still incomplete and searching. So much of the pre-trib position comes from the bias of certain ideas that have been rationalized into existence. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing pre-trib, though there is much there to bash, this is just an introduction by way of a little history. In any case I stumbled across a book by M. Rosenthal that helped me to search in a different way, and the eyes of my heart were opened! In all the study i did over the years the only 'rapture' that makes sense, from all the verses related to such an event, is the one we like to call pre-wrath. Some seem to think it's also a post trib event but I think the trib continues until the 70 weeks is complete, though the tribulation of the saints is over at the coming of Jesus, or pre Wrath of God, probably why this rapture is called post-trib by some.

The objection I have to the above Wiki quote has to do with this statement:  states that Christians will be raptured at the end of a time called the Beginning of Sorrows that occurs in the first half of the seventieth week of the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks, and before the day of the Lord's wrath

Pre-wrath actually states that believers are gathered at the end of 'great tribulation' and before the wrath of God falls, and this on the same day, likely moments before the Wrath of God begins at the Day of the Lord. "Great tribulation" begins at the middle of the 70th week when the beginning of sorrows ends. Believers endure 'great tribulation' for a period of less than 3.5 years until the Lord returns to gather us up and fight against the rebellious armies of the world.

Looking forward to a fruitful discussion!

Hmm. I'm a little confused? OK, so if I get you right pre-wrath is similar to post-trib, just that you consider the wrath as part of the 3.5 years and that the rapture happens just before the wrath a little before the end of the 3.5 years of the last week of Daniel?

Yep.

OK. I guess we're possibly on the same page till we get to the--end of the trib beginning of the wrath--part. So what is it that leads you to interpret the wrath as part of the trib, which I assume means part of the 1260 days of GT that would be connected with the last half of the 70th week?

[Diaste]

Odd, I always thought of the pre-wrath as a nuanced post-trib position, although I did have a book once that detailed it as a nuanced pre-trib position. Is the term pre-wrath copyrighted or is there an official Pre-Wrath Association which can define it? Hard to defend something if once doesn't even know the position's specifics.

According to the great theology site Wikipedia:

 

The Prewrath rapture is one of several premillennial views on the end-times events among evangelical Christians, and states that Christians will be raptured at the end of a time called the Beginning of Sorrows that occurs in the first half of the seventieth week of the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks, and before the day of the Lord's wrath (God's wrath). The prewrath position emphasizes the biblical distinction between tribulation (which Christians have been promised) and the wrath of God (which Christians have been promised deliverance/salvation from).

According to the Prewrath perspective, the great tribulation begins 3.5 years after the Antichrist "makes a covenant with the many" (Daniel 9:27), in the middle of "Daniel's 70th week." The 70th week is a reference to Daniel 9:24, where each day of the week corresponds to a year (for a total of seven years). After the first 3.5 years, the Antichrist will make himself known with the abomination that causes desolation, and he will reign for 3.5 years (42 months or 1260 days). The latter half of the 3.5 years is characterized by the Antichrist deceiving the world and persecuting the church.

Hi,

Love this discussion and I just have to chime in. The pre-wrath thing is something I have studied out over the decades since I first became acquainted with the return of Jesus and the gathering of the elect. At first I read every book I could find on the subject, all were pre-trib. That position always left me unsettled, as if I was somehow in the right crowd, in the know as it were, but still incomplete and searching. So much of the pre-trib position comes from the bias of certain ideas that have been rationalized into existence. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing pre-trib, though there is much there to bash, this is just an introduction by way of a little history. In any case I stumbled across a book by M. Rosenthal that helped me to search in a different way, and the eyes of my heart were opened! In all the study i did over the years the only 'rapture' that makes sense, from all the verses related to such an event, is the one we like to call pre-wrath. Some seem to think it's also a post trib event but I think the trib continues until the 70 weeks is complete, though the tribulation of the saints is over at the coming of Jesus, or pre Wrath of God, probably why this rapture is called post-trib by some.

The objection I have to the above Wiki quote has to do with this statement:  states that Christians will be raptured at the end of a time called the Beginning of Sorrows that occurs in the first half of the seventieth week of the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks, and before the day of the Lord's wrath

Pre-wrath actually states that believers are gathered at the end of 'great tribulation' and before the wrath of God falls, and this on the same day, likely moments before the Wrath of God begins at the Day of the Lord. "Great tribulation" begins at the middle of the 70th week when the beginning of sorrows ends. Believers endure 'great tribulation' for a period of less than 3.5 years until the Lord returns to gather us up and fight against the rebellious armies of the world.

Looking forward to a fruitful discussion!

Hmm. I'm a little confused? OK, so if I get you right pre-wrath is similar to post-trib, just that you consider the wrath as part of the 3.5 years and that the rapture happens just before the wrath a little before the end of the 3.5 years of the last week of Daniel?

Yep.

OK. I guess we're possibly on the same page till we get to the--end of the trib beginning of the wrath--part. So what is it that leads you to interpret the wrath as part of the trib, which I assume means part of the 1260 days of GT that would be connected with the last half of the 70th week?

If i understand what you are saying, correct me if i'm wrong, you are wondering why I think the Wrath of God and 'great tribulation' seem to coincide. Well, I don't. I don't see that sort of thing anywhere in scripture. What scripture shows us is a week of years with two halves. The week begins with the beast confirming a covenant. The first half of the week runs till the A of D when the beast is finally revealed for who he is, and the second half commences. The 2nd half of the week is 42 months, or 1260 days. Layered into this, on top of, or woven into, we might say, the 2nd half of the week, are two events of some undetermined duration: 'great tribulation' and the Wrath of God. Scripture does not record that 'great tribulation' has a specified end point except for " those days were shortened or no flesh would be saved." Scripture shows us the beginning of 'great tribulation', but the duration is not specified. The Wrath of God doesn't have a specified beginning either. We assume that the end of the Wrath of God is at the end of the 2nd half of the week and that seems reasonable to me, but scripture does not provide a beginning that is clearly defined("no man knows the day or the hour, but we can know the year and the month, yes?). Logically we know that believers are not appointed to wrath. We also know that 'great tribulation' is the refining fire God promised would come. If the refining fire is for the people of God, to make them pure and holy, then 'great tribulation' ceases when He comes to redeem us and gather us to Him. After he has gathered us the Wrath of God falls on the rebels. We know this from passages in Rev where the Lord gathers the believers from the 4 winds and then the Day of the Lord begins, likely on the same day and the same hour, and the wrath of God is poured out on the rebels It would look like this:

                                                                                                                                 70th Week

                                                                                          l____       _First Half__     ______l___                Second half                         l

                                                                                          l         Beginning of Sorrows_  _   l             'great tribulation'      l Wrath of God l

So the second half of the week only is 1260 days. 'Great tribulation' is in the 2nd half of the week and is part of the 1260 days, and is likely the greater part of the 2nd half. 2.5, 3 years, perhaps. I don't know for sure but scripture seems to say the Wrath of God lasts for around 5 to 6 months.

[toknowthetruth]

Odd, I always thought of the pre-wrath as a nuanced post-trib position, although I did have a book once that detailed it as a nuanced pre-trib position. Is the term pre-wrath copyrighted or is there an official Pre-Wrath Association which can define it? Hard to defend something if once doesn't even know the position's specifics.

According to the great theology site Wikipedia:

 

The Prewrath rapture is one of several premillennial views on the end-times events among evangelical Christians, and states that Christians will be raptured at the end of a time called the Beginning of Sorrows that occurs in the first half of the seventieth week of the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks, and before the day of the Lord's wrath (God's wrath). The prewrath position emphasizes the biblical distinction between tribulation (which Christians have been promised) and the wrath of God (which Christians have been promised deliverance/salvation from).

According to the Prewrath perspective, the great tribulation begins 3.5 years after the Antichrist "makes a covenant with the many" (Daniel 9:27), in the middle of "Daniel's 70th week." The 70th week is a reference to Daniel 9:24, where each day of the week corresponds to a year (for a total of seven years). After the first 3.5 years, the Antichrist will make himself known with the abomination that causes desolation, and he will reign for 3.5 years (42 months or 1260 days). The latter half of the 3.5 years is characterized by the Antichrist deceiving the world and persecuting the church.

Hi,

Love this discussion and I just have to chime in. The pre-wrath thing is something I have studied out over the decades since I first became acquainted with the return of Jesus and the gathering of the elect. At first I read every book I could find on the subject, all were pre-trib. That position always left me unsettled, as if I was somehow in the right crowd, in the know as it were, but still incomplete and searching. So much of the pre-trib position comes from the bias of certain ideas that have been rationalized into existence. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing pre-trib, though there is much there to bash, this is just an introduction by way of a little history. In any case I stumbled across a book by M. Rosenthal that helped me to search in a different way, and the eyes of my heart were opened! In all the study i did over the years the only 'rapture' that makes sense, from all the verses related to such an event, is the one we like to call pre-wrath. Some seem to think it's also a post trib event but I think the trib continues until the 70 weeks is complete, though the tribulation of the saints is over at the coming of Jesus, or pre Wrath of God, probably why this rapture is called post-trib by some.

The objection I have to the above Wiki quote has to do with this statement:  states that Christians will be raptured at the end of a time called the Beginning of Sorrows that occurs in the first half of the seventieth week of the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks, and before the day of the Lord's wrath

Pre-wrath actually states that believers are gathered at the end of 'great tribulation' and before the wrath of God falls, and this on the same day, likely moments before the Wrath of God begins at the Day of the Lord. "Great tribulation" begins at the middle of the 70th week when the beginning of sorrows ends. Believers endure 'great tribulation' for a period of less than 3.5 years until the Lord returns to gather us up and fight against the rebellious armies of the world.

Looking forward to a fruitful discussion!

Hmm. I'm a little confused? OK, so if I get you right pre-wrath is similar to post-trib, just that you consider the wrath as part of the 3.5 years and that the rapture happens just before the wrath a little before the end of the 3.5 years of the last week of Daniel?

Yep.

OK. I guess we're possibly on the same page till we get to the--end of the trib beginning of the wrath--part. So what is it that leads you to interpret the wrath as part of the trib, which I assume means part of the 1260 days of GT that would be connected with the last half of the 70th week?

If i understand what you are saying, correct me if i'm wrong, you are wondering why I think the Wrath of God and 'great tribulation' seem to coincide. Well, I don't. I don't see that sort of thing anywhere in scripture. What scripture shows us is a week of years with two halves. The week begins with the beast confirming a covenant. The first half of the week runs till the A of D when the beast is finally revealed for who he is, and the second half commences. The 2nd half of the week is 42 months, or 1260 days. Layered into this, on top of, or woven into, we might say, the 2nd half of the week, are two events of some undetermined duration: 'great tribulation' and the Wrath of God. Scripture does not record that 'great tribulation' has a specified end point except for " those days were shortened or no flesh would be saved." Scripture shows us the beginning of 'great tribulation', but the duration is not specified. The Wrath of God doesn't have a specified beginning either. We assume that the end of the Wrath of God is at the end of the 2nd half of the week and that seems reasonable to me, but scripture does not provide a beginning that is clearly defined("no man knows the day or the hour, but we can know the year and the month, yes?). Logically we know that believers are not appointed to wrath. We also know that 'great tribulation' is the refining fire God promised would come. If the refining fire is for the people of God, to make them pure and holy, then 'great tribulation' ceases when He comes to redeem us and gather us to Him. After he has gathered us the Wrath of God falls on the rebels. We know this from passages in Rev where the Lord gathers the believers from the 4 winds and then the Day of the Lord begins, likely on the same day and the same hour, and the wrath of God is poured out on the rebels It would look like this:

                                                                                                                                 70th Week

                                                                                          l____       _First Half__     ______l___                Second half                         l

                                                                                          l         Beginning of Sorrows_  _   l             'great tribulation'      l Wrath of God l

So the second half of the week only is 1260 days. 'Great tribulation' is in the 2nd half of the week and is part of the 1260 days, and is likely the greater part of the 2nd half. 2.5, 3 years, perhaps. I don't know for sure but scripture seems to say the Wrath of God lasts for around 5 to 6 months.

OK. I guess you must have a different interpretation of Dan 7:25, Rev 11:3, and Rev 12:6 and 14 than me. To me these would point to the Church passing through the GT for 1260 days before the rapture. I'm interested to know how you interpret those passages. Not trying to challenge your view, just would like to understand it.

Edited September 7, 2015 by toknowthetruth

[Diaste]

Odd, I always thought of the pre-wrath as a nuanced post-trib position, although I did have a book once that detailed it as a nuanced pre-trib position. Is the term pre-wrath copyrighted or is there an official Pre-Wrath Association which can define it? Hard to defend something if once doesn't even know the position's specifics.

According to the great theology site Wikipedia:

 

The Prewrath rapture is one of several premillennial views on the end-times events among evangelical Christians, and states that Christians will be raptured at the end of a time called the Beginning of Sorrows that occurs in the first half of the seventieth week of the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks, and before the day of the Lord's wrath (God's wrath). The prewrath position emphasizes the biblical distinction between tribulation (which Christians have been promised) and the wrath of God (which Christians have been promised deliverance/salvation from).

According to the Prewrath perspective, the great tribulation begins 3.5 years after the Antichrist "makes a covenant with the many" (Daniel 9:27), in the middle of "Daniel's 70th week." The 70th week is a reference to Daniel 9:24, where each day of the week corresponds to a year (for a total of seven years). After the first 3.5 years, the Antichrist will make himself known with the abomination that causes desolation, and he will reign for 3.5 years (42 months or 1260 days). The latter half of the 3.5 years is characterized by the Antichrist deceiving the world and persecuting the church.

Hi,

Love this discussion and I just have to chime in. The pre-wrath thing is something I have studied out over the decades since I first became acquainted with the return of Jesus and the gathering of the elect. At first I read every book I could find on the subject, all were pre-trib. That position always left me unsettled, as if I was somehow in the right crowd, in the know as it were, but still incomplete and searching. So much of the pre-trib position comes from the bias of certain ideas that have been rationalized into existence. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing pre-trib, though there is much there to bash, this is just an introduction by way of a little history. In any case I stumbled across a book by M. Rosenthal that helped me to search in a different way, and the eyes of my heart were opened! In all the study i did over the years the only 'rapture' that makes sense, from all the verses related to such an event, is the one we like to call pre-wrath. Some seem to think it's also a post trib event but I think the trib continues until the 70 weeks is complete, though the tribulation of the saints is over at the coming of Jesus, or pre Wrath of God, probably why this rapture is called post-trib by some.

The objection I have to the above Wiki quote has to do with this statement:  states that Christians will be raptured at the end of a time called the Beginning of Sorrows that occurs in the first half of the seventieth week of the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks, and before the day of the Lord's wrath

Pre-wrath actually states that believers are gathered at the end of 'great tribulation' and before the wrath of God falls, and this on the same day, likely moments before the Wrath of God begins at the Day of the Lord. "Great tribulation" begins at the middle of the 70th week when the beginning of sorrows ends. Believers endure 'great tribulation' for a period of less than 3.5 years until the Lord returns to gather us up and fight against the rebellious armies of the world.

Looking forward to a fruitful discussion!

Hmm. I'm a little confused? OK, so if I get you right pre-wrath is similar to post-trib, just that you consider the wrath as part of the 3.5 years and that the rapture happens just before the wrath a little before the end of the 3.5 years of the last week of Daniel?

Yep.

OK. I guess we're possibly on the same page till we get to the--end of the trib beginning of the wrath--part. So what is it that leads you to interpret the wrath as part of the trib, which I assume means part of the 1260 days of GT that would be connected with the last half of the 70th week?

If i understand what you are saying, correct me if i'm wrong, you are wondering why I think the Wrath of God and 'great tribulation' seem to coincide. Well, I don't. I don't see that sort of thing anywhere in scripture. What scripture shows us is a week of years with two halves. The week begins with the beast confirming a covenant. The first half of the week runs till the A of D when the beast is finally revealed for who he is, and the second half commences. The 2nd half of the week is 42 months, or 1260 days. Layered into this, on top of, or woven into, we might say, the 2nd half of the week, are two events of some undetermined duration: 'great tribulation' and the Wrath of God. Scripture does not record that 'great tribulation' has a specified end point except for " those days were shortened or no flesh would be saved." Scripture shows us the beginning of 'great tribulation', but the duration is not specified. The Wrath of God doesn't have a specified beginning either. We assume that the end of the Wrath of God is at the end of the 2nd half of the week and that seems reasonable to me, but scripture does not provide a beginning that is clearly defined("no man knows the day or the hour, but we can know the year and the month, yes?). Logically we know that believers are not appointed to wrath. We also know that 'great tribulation' is the refining fire God promised would come. If the refining fire is for the people of God, to make them pure and holy, then 'great tribulation' ceases when He comes to redeem us and gather us to Him. After he has gathered us the Wrath of God falls on the rebels. We know this from passages in Rev where the Lord gathers the believers from the 4 winds and then the Day of the Lord begins, likely on the same day and the same hour, and the wrath of God is poured out on the rebels It would look like this:

                                                                                                                                 70th Week

                                                                                          l____       _First Half__     ______l___                Second half                         l

                                                                                          l         Beginning of Sorrows_  _   l             'great tribulation'      l Wrath of God l

So the second half of the week only is 1260 days. 'Great tribulation' is in the 2nd half of the week and is part of the 1260 days, and is likely the greater part of the 2nd half. 2.5, 3 years, perhaps. I don't know for sure but scripture seems to say the Wrath of God lasts for around 5 to 6 months.

OK. I guess you must have a different interpretation of Dan 7:25, Rev 11:3, and Rev 12:6 and 14 than me. To me these would point to the Church passing through the GT for 1260 days before the rapture. I'm interested to know how you interpret those passages. Not trying to challenge your view, just would like to understand it.

Just a quick look at the references you supplied tells me we have a similar understanding. And feel free to challenge me. I could be wrong and I need to know that. As far as 'my view' goes I try to keep my personal bias out of it if I can. I learned long ago that hoping for a certain conclusion never led me to the truth and did nothing to help me mature. But, I am a creature and a sinful one, so I know that I can be incorrect. That being said, scripture is always correct IF we can understand what the Lord is telling us. Not so easy as it sounds. I see what you are saying concerning the above scriptures, and it makes sense. With your permission I'll look at them all.

Dan 7 "25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."

This verse clearly says the saints are under the power of the stout little horn for 3.5 years. If the second half of the week is also 1260 days, then the saints are in 'great tribulation' for the whole of the 2nd week. But scripture also says this: Matt 24

"15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16-20 These five verses are the warning to flee and the hardships the Jews will endure during their flight.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." 

I wanted to look at the beginning and the end of 'great tribulation'. The beginning of 'great tribulation' is the A of D as Jesus is telling us here. Jesus is also telling us that it's going to be a time like no other. Most associate the dread of this fearful time with the cruel persecution of the saints of God, and I concur. But there are also many powerful, supernatural events occurring as well making this, 'a time like no other'. But that's another story. Verse 22 says the days are going to be shortened or no flesh would be saved. I understand this 'flesh' to be living saints. The last phrase of verse 22 tells us the days of 'great tribulation' are shortened for the sake of the elect(saints), so I understand this to mean some of the flesh(living saints) of the elect(all believers) must be saved alive(to fulfill another prophecy) so the days are shortened. But by how much are the days shortened? Not a lot. Maybe just a few months from what I read in the scriptures.

"3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth." 

I have heard several contend the two witnesses are the church and the bible, the church and their testimony, the Jews and the church or, the OT and NT. I wish some scripture would explicitly identify these two. However, scripture definitively identifies them as two individuals, likely men, and there are logical(deductive)arguments that can place these two in the first half of the week.

Rev 11:5-12 attributes several characteristics of individuals to the two witnesses: they have feet, a mouth, they speak, they prophesy, they have individual wills, they can be killed, they have bodies.

Clearly these are individuals and not the church. There are a couple other things as well. These two are resurrected under different circumstances than the elect. The elect are gathered from the four winds after undergoing persecution during 'great tribulation'. These two laid in the street for three days and then heard a voice saying, "Come up here." The elect will hear a trumpet and see the sign of the coming of the Son of Man. Also, the elect are undergoing persecution by everyone in the world. These two are doing the persecution!! They are burning people to death, causing drought, smiting people with plagues as often as they will. These two are agents of the Most High prophesying for the Lord and smiting the earth; they cannot be the church, the Jews, the OT and NT, etc.

 The two witnesses certainly will not be able to fulfill 1260 days of prophecy in the second half of the week. If the witnesses were to fulfill their ministry in the second half of the week the reign of the beast would continue past the 42 months, or 1260 days. Let me explain: If the witnesses prophecy 1260 days and then are killed, and the world parties for 3.5 days and gives gifts to one another after the death of these two prophets, then the beasts time runs 3.5 days longer than it should. Since the two witnesses must prophecy for 1260 days it seem logical, though not imperative, their prophecy must fit within one of two time periods we know to be the same length of their prophecy. Namely, either the first or second halves of the week. Since we know they cannot fulfill the prophecy in the second half, then they must appear in the first half, before the beast is empowered and kills them. This seem logical to me. The two witnesses arrive on the scene at the beginning of the 70th week and prophesy against the covenant made with the Jews. The two torment the earth and kill their enemies for 1260 days. The beast ascends from the bottomless pit, is empowered by the dragon, kills the two prophets, the world parties, the beast places the A of D, and 'great tribulation' commences. Now it's true the 1260 days of their prophecy could be any 1260 day period. It could begin one year into the first half and run 2.5 years into the second half, or any other combination. But their days of prophecy cannot be fully contained within the 2nd half of the 70th week or the beast's reign runs past the allotted 42 months. The reason I'm convinced the time of the two prophets is fully contained within the first half is the same as I stated earlier. God will warn the Jews about their impending doom, relying on this little horn that promises peace and plans destruction. This prophesying will begin the moment the treaty for peace is confirmed and fulfill the 1260 days in the first half of the week.

Rev 12.

If I understand correctly you are equating the woman in Rev 12 with the church, elect. Since the scripture clearly says the woman flees to the wilderness on the wings of a great eagle, and is nourished there for 1260 days, the church, elect, must be in 'great tribulation' for 1260 days, therefore, a post trib rapture. I think scripture says exactly what you suggest. The woman in the wilderness, in the place prepared for her, is on earth for the entire 1260 days. But the group in question is the remnant of her seed.

"17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" Now this group is different from the woman. But I guess we should let scripture identify the woman first.

"5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." Clearly the man-child who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron that was caught up to God's throne, is Jesus Christ. The woman then must be Israel(at one point Jesus likened all the Jews to his 'mothers and brothers') as it certainly cannot be Jesus birth mother Mary. So the remnant of the seed of the woman can only be the elect as they, "keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ". So the woman is here for the whole of the 1260 days in a special place whereas the other group that, "keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" are under siege by the dragon. This is the elect for," except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened". So while the woman is on earth for 1260 days, 'great tribulation' for the elect is cut short, the elect is gathered and the Wrath of God begins, and ends at the culmination of the 70th week.

In reality I understand pretty much the same as you do, except maybe the two witnesses. I just added some scripture to give us more to think about.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2015 by Diaste

[toknowthetruth]

Odd, I always thought of the pre-wrath as a nuanced post-trib position, although I did have a book once that detailed it as a nuanced pre-trib position. Is the term pre-wrath copyrighted or is there an official Pre-Wrath Association which can define it? Hard to defend something if once doesn't even know the position's specifics.

According to the great theology site Wikipedia:

 

The Prewrath rapture is one of several premillennial views on the end-times events among evangelical Christians, and states that Christians will be raptured at the end of a time called the Beginning of Sorrows that occurs in the first half of the seventieth week of the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks, and before the day of the Lord's wrath (God's wrath). The prewrath position emphasizes the biblical distinction between tribulation (which Christians have been promised) and the wrath of God (which Christians have been promised deliverance/salvation from).

According to the Prewrath perspective, the great tribulation begins 3.5 years after the Antichrist "makes a covenant with the many" (Daniel 9:27), in the middle of "Daniel's 70th week." The 70th week is a reference to Daniel 9:24, where each day of the week corresponds to a year (for a total of seven years). After the first 3.5 years, the Antichrist will make himself known with the abomination that causes desolation, and he will reign for 3.5 years (42 months or 1260 days). The latter half of the 3.5 years is characterized by the Antichrist deceiving the world and persecuting the church.

Hi,

Love this discussion and I just have to chime in. The pre-wrath thing is something I have studied out over the decades since I first became acquainted with the return of Jesus and the gathering of the elect. At first I read every book I could find on the subject, all were pre-trib. That position always left me unsettled, as if I was somehow in the right crowd, in the know as it were, but still incomplete and searching. So much of the pre-trib position comes from the bias of certain ideas that have been rationalized into existence. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing pre-trib, though there is much there to bash, this is just an introduction by way of a little history. In any case I stumbled across a book by M. Rosenthal that helped me to search in a different way, and the eyes of my heart were opened! In all the study i did over the years the only 'rapture' that makes sense, from all the verses related to such an event, is the one we like to call pre-wrath. Some seem to think it's also a post trib event but I think the trib continues until the 70 weeks is complete, though the tribulation of the saints is over at the coming of Jesus, or pre Wrath of God, probably why this rapture is called post-trib by some.

The objection I have to the above Wiki quote has to do with this statement:  states that Christians will be raptured at the end of a time called the Beginning of Sorrows that occurs in the first half of the seventieth week of the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks, and before the day of the Lord's wrath

Pre-wrath actually states that believers are gathered at the end of 'great tribulation' and before the wrath of God falls, and this on the same day, likely moments before the Wrath of God begins at the Day of the Lord. "Great tribulation" begins at the middle of the 70th week when the beginning of sorrows ends. Believers endure 'great tribulation' for a period of less than 3.5 years until the Lord returns to gather us up and fight against the rebellious armies of the world.

Looking forward to a fruitful discussion!

Hmm. I'm a little confused? OK, so if I get you right pre-wrath is similar to post-trib, just that you consider the wrath as part of the 3.5 years and that the rapture happens just before the wrath a little before the end of the 3.5 years of the last week of Daniel?

Yep.

OK. I guess we're possibly on the same page till we get to the--end of the trib beginning of the wrath--part. So what is it that leads you to interpret the wrath as part of the trib, which I assume means part of the 1260 days of GT that would be connected with the last half of the 70th week?

If i understand what you are saying, correct me if i'm wrong, you are wondering why I think the Wrath of God and 'great tribulation' seem to coincide. Well, I don't. I don't see that sort of thing anywhere in scripture. What scripture shows us is a week of years with two halves. The week begins with the beast confirming a covenant. The first half of the week runs till the A of D when the beast is finally revealed for who he is, and the second half commences. The 2nd half of the week is 42 months, or 1260 days. Layered into this, on top of, or woven into, we might say, the 2nd half of the week, are two events of some undetermined duration: 'great tribulation' and the Wrath of God. Scripture does not record that 'great tribulation' has a specified end point except for " those days were shortened or no flesh would be saved." Scripture shows us the beginning of 'great tribulation', but the duration is not specified. The Wrath of God doesn't have a specified beginning either. We assume that the end of the Wrath of God is at the end of the 2nd half of the week and that seems reasonable to me, but scripture does not provide a beginning that is clearly defined("no man knows the day or the hour, but we can know the year and the month, yes?). Logically we know that believers are not appointed to wrath. We also know that 'great tribulation' is the refining fire God promised would come. If the refining fire is for the people of God, to make them pure and holy, then 'great tribulation' ceases when He comes to redeem us and gather us to Him. After he has gathered us the Wrath of God falls on the rebels. We know this from passages in Rev where the Lord gathers the believers from the 4 winds and then the Day of the Lord begins, likely on the same day and the same hour, and the wrath of God is poured out on the rebels It would look like this:

                                                                                                                                 70th Week

                                                                                          l____       _First Half__     ______l___                Second half                         l

                                                                                          l         Beginning of Sorrows_  _   l             'great tribulation'      l Wrath of God l

So the second half of the week only is 1260 days. 'Great tribulation' is in the 2nd half of the week and is part of the 1260 days, and is likely the greater part of the 2nd half. 2.5, 3 years, perhaps. I don't know for sure but scripture seems to say the Wrath of God lasts for around 5 to 6 months.

OK. I guess you must have a different interpretation of Dan 7:25, Rev 11:3, and Rev 12:6 and 14 than me. To me these would point to the Church passing through the GT for 1260 days before the rapture. I'm interested to know how you interpret those passages. Not trying to challenge your view, just would like to understand it.

Just a quick look at the references you supplied tells me we have a similar understanding. And feel free to challenge me. I could be wrong and I need to know that. As far as 'my view' goes I try to keep my personal bias out of it if I can. I learned long ago that hoping for a certain conclusion never led me to the truth and did nothing to help me mature. But, I am a creature and a sinful one, so I know that I can be incorrect. That being said, scripture is always correct IF we can understand what the Lord is telling us. Not so easy as it sounds. I see what you are saying concerning the above scriptures, and it makes sense. With your permission I'll look at them all.

Dan 7 "25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."

This verse clearly says the saints are under the power of the stout little horn for 3.5 years. If the second half of the week is also 1260 days, then the saints are in 'great tribulation' for the whole of the 2nd week. But scripture also says this: Matt 24

"15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16-20 These five verses are the warning to flee and the hardships the Jews will endure during their flight.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." 

I wanted to look at the beginning and the end of 'great tribulation'. The beginning of 'great tribulation' is the A of D as Jesus is telling us here. Jesus is also telling us that it's going to be a time like no other. Most associate the dread of this fearful time with the cruel persecution of the saints of God, and I concur. But there are also many powerful, supernatural events occurring as well making this, 'a time like no other'. But that's another story. Verse 22 says the days are going to be shortened or no flesh would be saved. I understand this 'flesh' to be living saints. The last phrase of verse 22 tells us the days of 'great tribulation' are shortened for the sake of the elect(saints), so I understand this to mean some of the flesh(living saints) of the elect(all believers) must be saved alive(to fulfill another prophecy) so the days are shortened. But by how much are the days shortened? Not a lot. Maybe just a few months from what I read in the scriptures.

"3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth." 

I have heard several contend the two witnesses are the church and the bible, the church and their testimony, the Jews and the church or, the OT and NT. I wish some scripture would explicitly identify these two. However, scripture definitively identifies them as two individuals, likely men, and there are logical(deductive)arguments that can place these two in the first half of the week.

Rev 11:5-12 attributes several characteristics of individuals to the two witnesses: they have feet, a mouth, they speak, they prophesy, they have individual wills, they can be killed, they have bodies.

Clearly these are individuals and not the church. There are a couple other things as well. These two are resurrected under different circumstances than the elect. The elect are gathered from the four winds after undergoing persecution during 'great tribulation'. These two laid in the street for three days and then heard a voice saying, "Come up here." The elect will hear a trumpet and see the sign of the coming of the Son of Man. Also, the elect are undergoing persecution by everyone in the world. These two are doing the persecution!! They are burning people to death, causing drought, smiting people with plagues as often as they will. These two are agents of the Most High prophesying for the Lord and smiting the earth; they cannot be the church, the Jews, the OT and NT, etc.

 The two witnesses certainly will not be able to fulfill 1260 days of prophecy in the second half of the week. If the witnesses were to fulfill their ministry in the second half of the week the reign of the beast would continue past the 42 months, or 1260 days. Let me explain: If the witnesses prophecy 1260 days and then are killed, and the world parties for 3.5 days and gives gifts to one another after the death of these two prophets, then the beasts time runs 3.5 days longer than it should. Since the two witnesses must prophecy for 1260 days it seem logical, though not imperative, their prophecy must fit within one of two time periods we know to be the same length of their prophecy. Namely, either the first or second halves of the week. Since we know they cannot fulfill the prophecy in the second half, then they must appear in the first half, before the beast is empowered and kills them. This seem logical to me. The two witnesses arrive on the scene at the beginning of the 70th week and prophesy against the covenant made with the Jews. The two torment the earth and kill their enemies for 1260 days. The beast ascends from the bottomless pit, is empowered by the dragon, kills the two prophets, the world parties, the beast places the A of D, and 'great tribulation' commences. Now it's true the 1260 days of their prophecy could be any 1260 day period. It could begin one year into the first half and run 2.5 years into the second half, or any other combination. But their days of prophecy cannot be fully contained within the 2nd half of the 70th week or the beast's reign runs past the allotted 42 months. The reason I'm convinced the time of the two prophets is fully contained within the first half is the same as I stated earlier. God will warn the Jews about their impending doom, relying on this little horn that promises peace and plans destruction. This prophesying will begin the moment the treaty for peace is confirmed and fulfill the 1260 days in the first half of the week.

Rev 12.

If I understand correctly you are equating the woman in Rev 12 with the church, elect. Since the scripture clearly says the woman flees to the wilderness on the wings of a great eagle, and is nourished there for 1260 days, the church, elect, must be in 'great tribulation' for 1260 days, therefore, a post trib rapture. I think scripture says exactly what you suggest. The woman in the wilderness, in the place prepared for her, is on earth for the entire 1260 days. But the group in question is the remnant of her seed.

"17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" Now this group is different from the woman. But I guess we should let scripture identify the woman first.

"5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." Clearly the man-child who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron that was caught up to God's throne, is Jesus Christ. The woman then must be Israel(at one point Jesus likened all the Jews to his 'mothers and brothers') as it certainly cannot be Jesus birth mother Mary. So the remnant of the seed of the woman can only be the elect as they, "keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ". So the woman is here for the whole of the 1260 days in a special place whereas the other group that, "keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" are under siege by the dragon. This is the elect for," except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened". So while the woman is on earth for 1260 days, 'great tribulation' for the elect is cut short, the elect is gathered and the Wrath of God begins, and ends at the culmination of the 70th week.

In reality I understand pretty much the same as you do, except maybe the two witnesses. I just added some scripture to give us more to think about.

 

 

Hi Diaste,

 

You gave me a lot of homework there. I'll try to get back to you shortly. :)

[toknowthetruth]

Odd, I always thought of the pre-wrath as a nuanced post-trib position, although I did have a book once that detailed it as a nuanced pre-trib position. Is the term pre-wrath copyrighted or is there an official Pre-Wrath Association which can define it? Hard to defend something if once doesn't even know the position's specifics.

According to the great theology site Wikipedia:

 

The Prewrath rapture is one of several premillennial views on the end-times events among evangelical Christians, and states that Christians will be raptured at the end of a time called the Beginning of Sorrows that occurs in the first half of the seventieth week of the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks, and before the day of the Lord's wrath (God's wrath). The prewrath position emphasizes the biblical distinction between tribulation (which Christians have been promised) and the wrath of God (which Christians have been promised deliverance/salvation from).

According to the Prewrath perspective, the great tribulation begins 3.5 years after the Antichrist "makes a covenant with the many" (Daniel 9:27), in the middle of "Daniel's 70th week." The 70th week is a reference to Daniel 9:24, where each day of the week corresponds to a year (for a total of seven years). After the first 3.5 years, the Antichrist will make himself known with the abomination that causes desolation, and he will reign for 3.5 years (42 months or 1260 days). The latter half of the 3.5 years is characterized by the Antichrist deceiving the world and persecuting the church.

Hi,

Love this discussion and I just have to chime in. The pre-wrath thing is something I have studied out over the decades since I first became acquainted with the return of Jesus and the gathering of the elect. At first I read every book I could find on the subject, all were pre-trib. That position always left me unsettled, as if I was somehow in the right crowd, in the know as it were, but still incomplete and searching. So much of the pre-trib position comes from the bias of certain ideas that have been rationalized into existence. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing pre-trib, though there is much there to bash, this is just an introduction by way of a little history. In any case I stumbled across a book by M. Rosenthal that helped me to search in a different way, and the eyes of my heart were opened! In all the study i did over the years the only 'rapture' that makes sense, from all the verses related to such an event, is the one we like to call pre-wrath. Some seem to think it's also a post trib event but I think the trib continues until the 70 weeks is complete, though the tribulation of the saints is over at the coming of Jesus, or pre Wrath of God, probably why this rapture is called post-trib by some.

The objection I have to the above Wiki quote has to do with this statement:  states that Christians will be raptured at the end of a time called the Beginning of Sorrows that occurs in the first half of the seventieth week of the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks, and before the day of the Lord's wrath

Pre-wrath actually states that believers are gathered at the end of 'great tribulation' and before the wrath of God falls, and this on the same day, likely moments before the Wrath of God begins at the Day of the Lord. "Great tribulation" begins at the middle of the 70th week when the beginning of sorrows ends. Believers endure 'great tribulation' for a period of less than 3.5 years until the Lord returns to gather us up and fight against the rebellious armies of the world.

Looking forward to a fruitful discussion!

Hmm. I'm a little confused? OK, so if I get you right pre-wrath is similar to post-trib, just that you consider the wrath as part of the 3.5 years and that the rapture happens just before the wrath a little before the end of the 3.5 years of the last week of Daniel?

Yep.

OK. I guess we're possibly on the same page till we get to the--end of the trib beginning of the wrath--part. So what is it that leads you to interpret the wrath as part of the trib, which I assume means part of the 1260 days of GT that would be connected with the last half of the 70th week?

If i understand what you are saying, correct me if i'm wrong, you are wondering why I think the Wrath of God and 'great tribulation' seem to coincide. Well, I don't. I don't see that sort of thing anywhere in scripture. What scripture shows us is a week of years with two halves. The week begins with the beast confirming a covenant. The first half of the week runs till the A of D when the beast is finally revealed for who he is, and the second half commences. The 2nd half of the week is 42 months, or 1260 days. Layered into this, on top of, or woven into, we might say, the 2nd half of the week, are two events of some undetermined duration: 'great tribulation' and the Wrath of God. Scripture does not record that 'great tribulation' has a specified end point except for " those days were shortened or no flesh would be saved." Scripture shows us the beginning of 'great tribulation', but the duration is not specified. The Wrath of God doesn't have a specified beginning either. We assume that the end of the Wrath of God is at the end of the 2nd half of the week and that seems reasonable to me, but scripture does not provide a beginning that is clearly defined("no man knows the day or the hour, but we can know the year and the month, yes?). Logically we know that believers are not appointed to wrath. We also know that 'great tribulation' is the refining fire God promised would come. If the refining fire is for the people of God, to make them pure and holy, then 'great tribulation' ceases when He comes to redeem us and gather us to Him. After he has gathered us the Wrath of God falls on the rebels. We know this from passages in Rev where the Lord gathers the believers from the 4 winds and then the Day of the Lord begins, likely on the same day and the same hour, and the wrath of God is poured out on the rebels It would look like this:

                                                                                                                                 70th Week

                                                                                          l____       _First Half__     ______l___                Second half                         l

                                                                                          l         Beginning of Sorrows_  _   l             'great tribulation'      l Wrath of God l

So the second half of the week only is 1260 days. 'Great tribulation' is in the 2nd half of the week and is part of the 1260 days, and is likely the greater part of the 2nd half. 2.5, 3 years, perhaps. I don't know for sure but scripture seems to say the Wrath of God lasts for around 5 to 6 months.

OK. I guess you must have a different interpretation of Dan 7:25, Rev 11:3, and Rev 12:6 and 14 than me. To me these would point to the Church passing through the GT for 1260 days before the rapture. I'm interested to know how you interpret those passages. Not trying to challenge your view, just would like to understand it.

Just a quick look at the references you supplied tells me we have a similar understanding. And feel free to challenge me. I could be wrong and I need to know that. As far as 'my view' goes I try to keep my personal bias out of it if I can. I learned long ago that hoping for a certain conclusion never led me to the truth and did nothing to help me mature. But, I am a creature and a sinful one, so I know that I can be incorrect. That being said, scripture is always correct IF we can understand what the Lord is telling us. Not so easy as it sounds. I see what you are saying concerning the above scriptures, and it makes sense. With your permission I'll look at them all.

Dan 7 "25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."

This verse clearly says the saints are under the power of the stout little horn for 3.5 years. If the second half of the week is also 1260 days, then the saints are in 'great tribulation' for the whole of the 2nd week. But scripture also says this: Matt 24

"15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16-20 These five verses are the warning to flee and the hardships the Jews will endure during their flight.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." 

I wanted to look at the beginning and the end of 'great tribulation'. The beginning of 'great tribulation' is the A of D as Jesus is telling us here. Jesus is also telling us that it's going to be a time like no other. Most associate the dread of this fearful time with the cruel persecution of the saints of God, and I concur. But there are also many powerful, supernatural events occurring as well making this, 'a time like no other'. But that's another story. Verse 22 says the days are going to be shortened or no flesh would be saved. I understand this 'flesh' to be living saints. The last phrase of verse 22 tells us the days of 'great tribulation' are shortened for the sake of the elect(saints), so I understand this to mean some of the flesh(living saints) of the elect(all believers) must be saved alive(to fulfill another prophecy) so the days are shortened. But by how much are the days shortened? Not a lot. Maybe just a few months from what I read in the scriptures.

That’s a possible interpretation for sure. However, it seems a little unlikely to me that something of this significance would only be mentioned once and in a manner that seems quite ambiguous if it were indeed about a shortening of the GT. To me it reads as a shortening of the days of man’s reign on earth. Surely man would eventually wipe himself out if he were allowed to reign over the earth for too long a time. 

"3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth." 

I have heard several contend the two witnesses are the church and the bible, the church and their testimony, the Jews and the church or, the OT and NT. I wish some scripture would explicitly identify these two. However, scripture definitively identifies them as two individuals, likely men, and there are logical(deductive)arguments that can place these two in the first half of the week.

Rev 11:5-12 attributes several characteristics of individuals to the two witnesses: they have feet, a mouth, they speak, they prophesy, they have individual wills, they can be killed, they have bodies.

Clearly these are individuals and not the church. There are a couple other things as well. These two are resurrected under different circumstances than the elect. The elect are gathered from the four winds after undergoing persecution during 'great tribulation'. These two laid in the street for three days and then heard a voice saying, "Come up here." The elect will hear a trumpet and see the sign of the coming of the Son of Man. Also, the elect are undergoing persecution by everyone in the world. These two are doing the persecution!! They are burning people to death, causing drought, smiting people with plagues as often as they will. These two are agents of the Most High prophesying for the Lord and smiting the earth; they cannot be the church, the Jews, the OT and NT, etc.

I agree.

 The two witnesses certainly will not be able to fulfill 1260 days of prophecy in the second half of the week. If the witnesses were to fulfill their ministry in the second half of the week the reign of the beast would continue past the 42 months, or 1260 days. Let me explain: If the witnesses prophecy 1260 days and then are killed, and the world parties for 3.5 days and gives gifts to one another after the death of these two prophets, then the beasts time runs 3.5 days longer than it should. Since the two witnesses must prophecy for 1260 days it seem logical, though not imperative, their prophecy must fit within one of two time periods we know to be the same length of their prophecy. Namely, either the first or second halves of the week. Since we know they cannot fulfill the prophecy in the second half, then they must appear in the first half, before the beast is empowered and kills them. This seem logical to me. The two witnesses arrive on the scene at the beginning of the 70th week and prophesy against the covenant made with the Jews. The two torment the earth and kill their enemies for 1260 days. The beast ascends from the bottomless pit, is empowered by the dragon, kills the two prophets, the world parties, the beast places the A of D, and 'great tribulation' commences. Now it's true the 1260 days of their prophecy could be any 1260 day period. It could begin one year into the first half and run 2.5 years into the second half, or any other combination. But their days of prophecy cannot be fully contained within the 2nd half of the 70th week or the beast's reign runs past the allotted 42 months. The reason I'm convinced the time of the two prophets is fully contained within the first half is the same as I stated earlier. God will warn the Jews about their impending doom, relying on this little horn that promises peace and plans destruction. This prophesying will begin the moment the treaty for peace is confirmed and fulfill the 1260 days in the first half of the week.

I’ve never noticed that before. Thanks for pointing that out and for the information regarding the two witnesses falling into the first half of the 70^th week. These kind of details I’m particularly interested in. I want to know what the other possible scenarios are regarding this time period so that, in case the interpretation I hold to is wrong, I'll be aware of these other options, and hopefully I won’t be groping in the dark wondering why things are happening as they are. So now I know if when the covenant is confirmed by the AC and it happens that the two witnesses are plowing ahead full steam that the only thing that's wrong is that I had the wrong interpretation. That’s definitely a good thing to be aware of.

I don’t personally think that it will happen that way though. When you put that one verse that seems to be saying that the 1260 days is while they are alive against the backdrop of the surrounding passages it doesn’t seem like that’s what it’s saying. For instance you’ve got verse 2 talking about the holy city being trodden under foot by the gentiles 42 months. To me that’s an obvious reference to the second half of the 70^th week. Then in verse 15 you’ve got the sounding of the 7^th trumpet which, as far as I understand, is the end of the GT. Also the fact that it’s in a place in Revelation which I consider to be specifically about the GT (Chp 8-14) persuades me that the verse in question is only talking about the length of the 2 witnesses ministry on earth including the 3.5 days, not how long they would be alive. It also seems to me having their ministry in the first half of the week is out of place since the Jews will be sacrificing in their temple during that period, which to me sounds like that first 3.5 years will be a somewhat peaceful time which is what one would expect after a peace deal has been signed. 

Rev 12.

If I understand correctly you are equating the woman in Rev 12 with the church, elect. Since the scripture clearly says the woman flees to the wilderness on the wings of a great eagle, and is nourished there for 1260 days, the church, elect, must be in 'great tribulation' for 1260 days, therefore, a post trib rapture. I think scripture says exactly what you suggest. The woman in the wilderness, in the place prepared for her, is on earth for the entire 1260 days. But the group in question is the remnant of her seed.

"17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" Now this group is different from the woman. But I guess we should let scripture identify the woman first.

"5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." Clearly the man-child who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron that was caught up to God's throne, is Jesus Christ. The woman then must be Israel(at one point Jesus likened all the Jews to his 'mothers and brothers') as it certainly cannot be Jesus birth mother Mary. So the remnant of the seed of the woman can only be the elect as they, "keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ". So the woman is here for the whole of the 1260 days in a special place whereas the other group that, "keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" are under siege by the dragon. This is the elect for," except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened". So while the woman is on earth for 1260 days, 'great tribulation' for the elect is cut short, the elect is gathered and the Wrath of God begins, and ends at the culmination of the 70th week.

In reality I understand pretty much the same as you do, except maybe the two witnesses. I just added some scripture to give us more to think about.

That's an interesting take on that passage in Rev 12. Personally I try to take the simplest explanation, especially when it comes to these types of passages. To me the woman is simply the church throughout the ages, Old and New Testament. But I will definitely keep that interpretation in mind. (More comments above in between your last post in case you missed them.)

Edited September 8, 2015 by toknowthetruth

[WilliamL]

OK. I guess you must have a different interpretation of Dan 7:25, Rev 11:3, and Rev 12:6 and 14 than me. To me these would point to the Church passing through the GT for 1260 days before the rapture. I'm interested to know how you interpret those passages. Not trying to challenge your view, just would like to understand it.

Too many quotes of quotes of quotes, time to simplify.

In an earlier post, you told how you were enlightened as it were by Marvin Rosenthal's book on Pre-wrath, after he came out of his belief in Pre-trib. Trouble was, he dragged into his new understanding the old Pre-trib false teaching of a 7-times period for the End Times, divided into two 1260-day halves. The 7 times/70th week teaching is totally based upon Daniel 9:24-27: no other Scripture mentions such a 7-year period for the End Times. Anyone who bases a critical doctrine on one witness alone has already violated the Scriptures.

Truth is, everything prophesied in Dan. 9:26-27 was completely and perfectly fulfilled by the coming of Jesus the Messiah, and then subsequent destruction of the Temple and demise of the Aaronic priesthood in the 7-year Jewish War of 66-73 AD. A detailed analysis of why this is so can be found here: http://www.ourchurch.com/member/d/dummies/index.php?p=1_10_Daniel-s-70-Weeks

So, this leaves us with those prophecies yet unfulfilled of 3-1/2 times = 1260 days = 42 months; as referenced in your post above, and with the addition of Dan. 12:7. Daniel knew and was told nothing about the Church: the Book of Daniel refers always to "thy/my people Israel:" 9:20, 24, etc. The OT is full of prophecies about "the remnant of Israel/Jacob" undergoing fiery trials and purification on earth during the End Times; not about being raptured into heaven. Now, consider these key prophecies:

Rev. 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Zech. 12:10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn."

Matt. 26:64 Jesus said to him [Caiaphas], “It is as you said. Nevertheless I say to you, hereafter you [plural] will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

So, right after the great heavenly and earthly shakings of the 6th Seal, when the Lord comes for the elect of his Church, the unbelieving remnant of Israel will see him sitting at the right hand of God, and then coming on the clouds of heaven -- and they will come to believe in him, and mourn for their blindness. However, their faith will come too late to qualify them to ascend with the elect of the Church, so they will experience the period of the Wrath on earth -- but be preserved through it.

Therefore, the Church will not have to go through the 1260 day-period; with the significant exception of the non-elect, i.e. those many foolish virgins who will not be prepared for the Lord's Coming.

Hope this will help to clear up some things in your understanding.