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Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position


George

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Yeah that is one thing i always forget about with the time zones and this is obviously pointing to a one time worldwide event. But as far as the "two" i believe it's referring to people either in a personal or working relationship, maybe even believers. But one of them has something the other doesn't that justifies them and allows them to be delivered at that time. But i will not get into my own opinions on the rapture since it is already discussed way too much and you are not going to change anyone's mind about it anyway, but only studying the scriptures for yourself can do that.

And also an understanding of certain word meanings from the original manuscripts could change your whole viewpoint on some end time events, such as what you can learn from a Strong's concordance. I have been using Biblehub.com myself but there are other online resources as well.

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On 8/16/2022 at 11:04 PM, JoeCanada said:

Hey choir loft,

If this is what you believe, then could you please explain this .....

John 14:2-3:“In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.

“If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also."

Let me be clear about this - I AM NOT ARGUING AGAINST THE 2ND COMING OF JESUS CHRIST.

I am opposed to the undeniable origins and present acceptance of RCC eschatology by the post-modern neo-gnostic protestant church.  

EVEN the protestant fathers of the Reformation REJECTED RCC doctrines about the End Times.  

The church of the 21st century has betrayed not only the gospel of Jesus Christ but faith in His ability to save.  It does so by promoting doctrines of demons - cowardice and faithlessness.

I am specifically opposed to present acceptance of antiSemitic dogma of the RCC which is accepted by the Protestant church.  If Jews haven't responded to two thousand years of persecution by the church they certainly won't respond to it during what Protestants hope will be a SECOND HOLOCAUST.   Isn't one enough?  Apparently it isn't if one is a rabid believer of non-Biblical tribulation interpretations. (*) 

I am specifically opposed to the altogether confused, clumsy, contradictory and mutually exclusive interpretations of the 2nd coming referred to as rapture.  Even those who pretend to have a handle on it aren't in agreement with each other.  Consider that even this site hosts those who cannot agree with one another.  Is this indicative of certain reliable Biblical interpretation or demonic obfuscation?  

I am specifically opposed to the COWARDLY dogma of rapture that claims the church will be evacuated out of worldly trouble.   Nowhere in the Bible has God EVER demonstrated the possibility of evacuation from trouble.  

God demonstrates in scripture and in testimony that His purpose is to see His people THROUGH trouble.  God holds faith in Him during such times to be highly expressive of righteousness and love of Him.   To hope for evacuation from trouble is not only cowardly but borders on SIN itself because it flies in the face of faith.  It denies the God who promises to deliver us through it - to make us conquerors of it.

Exactly WHAT do you find attractive about the current churchy dogmas of tribulation and rapture?  It's neither Biblically oriented nor indicative of a living faith in Christ Jesus, the King of the Jews.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Jeremiah 30:7 speaks to a "time of Jacob's trouble/distress/tribulation".  THAT TIME happened during the German persecution of Jews from 1933 - 1945.   It is called the Holocaust when six million Jews were murdered for no crime other than of being born Jewish.  Those days are returning and the church is embracing their arrival with its inhuman doctrine of the tribulation.  The church has long looked forward to a 2nd Holocaust by means of its claims that scripture indicates a 2nd holocaust.   May God judge all those who profit preach and embrace such disgusting inhuman ideology.  May HE who is the King of the Jews bring to repentance all who have previously accepted the idea as normal.

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On 8/16/2022 at 6:43 PM, WilliamL said:

Luke 17:34 “I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.” 37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?” So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

You testify falsely: there is not a single word about demons here. Nor death. Purely your speculation.

However, we find a hint of the matter here:

Rev. 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. ... 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

and here:

Exodus 19:4 "You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to Myself."

 

Apparently the lack of coherent interpretation has little credence with some.....

Beginning from your last reference we look to Exodus 19:4. References to verse 4 are commonly accepted as being to the Griffin-Vulture, a native bird of Palestine at the time.

Vultures, as well as eagles, are an unclean animal (see Leviticus) - seldom used as symbolic of a good scenario.  

Exodus 19:4 is a reference to SLAVERY from which Hebrews were delivered by God's own hand.  The interpretation of the verse as well as the meaning of the descriptive term 'vulture' must be perverted in order to justify demonic doctrines of which rapture is a part.

Additionally, there is no record whatsoever either in Jewish literature, historical records or common sense to suppose that God transported several hundred thousand people out of Egypt on the backs of birds.  Hebrews walked out of Egypt.  They did not fly.  To assume such a thing is ludicrous.  To expect others to accept it as fact is intellectually insulting.

Exodus 19:4 is meant to convey divine deliverance from horrible circumstances of slavery, not airplane tickets on Vulture Airlines piloted by Old Nick.

Luke 17:30-37 is quite clear despite deliberate attempts to confuse the nature and purpose of vultures.  Jesus' disciples asked Him where the missing people were to be taken.  Jesus' response is very clear when He says "where there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather."  

In the English language the word "carcass" refers to a dead body.  The word "vulture" refers to a bird that eats carrion - dead meat.  Therefore the correct spiritual interpretation of the passage implies that demons, not angels, are involved in some sort of feeding process upon those who are 'taken' - meaning the dead.

Spiritually dead folks do not inherit the Kingdom of God.  The passage here implies that they are consumed somehow by spiritual entities that devour physical flesh.  Is not this what happens when a person walks in SIN?  Paul writes in Romans 6:23 that "the wagers of SIN is death".  

Why are you defending the ways of satan?  

Why are you trying to make SIN attractive when it isn't?

It's not a pretty picture at all.  

I'm not surprised that those who cherish a childish fantasy with RCC eschatology will be disheartened when they endeavor to undertake a clear and unprejudiced reading of the Bible.  The truth is usually like that - a bit hard to swallow when one is used to eating food without substance.

You have demonstrated that you've chosen to believe a lie forced upon the faithful by the RCC.  Please try to understand what I'm writing here.   Please read the Bible with a clear unprejudiced attitude.   I can help you understand if you wish me to assist you.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

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On 8/17/2022 at 12:10 AM, CaptWalker said:

I always wondered why it said "two MEN in one bed", i mean what's up with that?? Was it just a bad translation?

Hi,

'Men' was added. It's just 'two in one bed'.

On 8/17/2022 at 12:10 AM, CaptWalker said:

Either way i'm thinking it is basically saying there will be those believers and non-believers working and living together when this all suddenly happens.

Yes. It's idiomatic. Jesus is saying something like 'near each other'. The word for 'in' or 'on' is 'appropriate contact', 'apt contact'.

I take it to mean 'close proximity'. 

On 8/17/2022 at 12:10 AM, CaptWalker said:

And i have heard at least one preacher/teacher saying how those "taken" are the ones who are deceived by anti-Christ, but that would make these verses an even worse translation. So what's up with these KJV translators anyway, and how come no one ever points this out?? Unless of course this is an accurate translation and we should take it literally as an actual rapture event...even though i still don't believe in a pre-trib rapture.

I have pondered the same as well. Seriously, what is going on with some of the translations? I'm convinced God has done this so as to distinguish the true seeker. He subtly hides the whole truth, holds it in reserve, as it were. It's right there, hiding behind the all the obvious words, the one gem that gives us understanding, if we are willing to keep digging. Some are, some aren't. You appear to be a true miner of the gems.

But yeah. Definitely not a pretrib rapture.

I think it is the rapture event, or at the very least how the gathering will play out in part. It comes from Luke 17 and the verses 22-30 appear in the Olivet discourse, albeit with some differences.

On 8/17/2022 at 12:10 AM, CaptWalker said:

I just don't like how these verses seem to be either dismissed or ignored by so many who simply can't explain what it really means, and i used to be one of them, but lately i have just been looking for a more accurate translation other than what the KJV is saying...unless of course that was what the orginal manuscripts  literally meant, as in saying one person will suddenly be gone while the other is left?? But I just have to believe there is something more to this with the TWO people scenario, because it just doesn't make sense if a multitude of people are raptured at one time then not all of them would be with or near someone who is left behind, right?

I don't really know just what it means either, or maybe it's I don't fully understand how it will all work out; who does? I'm sure it's not general though; just one scenario that will occur along with other appropriate instances.

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On 8/16/2022 at 9:21 PM, JoeCanada said:

So what scripture is saying is...."Wherever the body is ( the church, the believers, the saints, etc) there the angels  gather..... or gather them together"

I think this is a much better interpretation and fit.

Not at all. You just spelled out what I intimated. Both at the Exodus and at the Parousia, angels gather God's elect.

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On 8/18/2022 at 11:31 AM, choir loft said:

Luke 17:30-37 is quite clear despite deliberate attempts to confuse the nature and purpose of vultures.  Jesus' disciples asked Him where the missing people were to be taken.  Jesus' response is very clear when He says "where there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather."  

Hi choir loft,

There are only a few bible translations that use the word "carcass". The vast majority use either 'body' or 'corpse'..... and the vast majority use 'eagles', not 'vultures'.

Jesus does not imply that those 'taken' are taken by 'demons'. I don't see anywhere in the passage that refers to 'demons'. 

 Eagles are sometimes symbolic of angels..... see Rev 8:13

The key wording here is talking about the gathering. Read all of Luke 17 and you will see. 

So what scripture is saying is...."Wherever the body is ( the church, the believers, the saints, etc) there the angels  gather..... or gather them together"

We can't just cherry pick one or two lines from a passage and try and justify an obscure meaning. We have to look at the whole passage.... all of Luke 17. And when we do that, it clearly tells of the ' gathering'.

On 8/18/2022 at 11:31 AM, choir loft said:

In the English language the word "carcass" refers to a dead body.  The word "vulture" refers to a bird that eats carrion - dead meat.  Therefore the correct spiritual interpretation of the passage implies that demons, not angels, are involved in some sort of feeding process upon those who are 'taken' - meaning the dead.

Spiritually dead folks do not inherit the Kingdom of God.  The passage here implies that they are consumed somehow by spiritual entities that devour physical flesh.  Is not this what happens when a person walks in SIN?  Paul writes in Romans 6:23 that "the wagers of SIN is death".  

Nope.... can't agree here. See my reply above.

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13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi choir loft,

There are only a few bible translations that use the word "carcass". The vast majority use either 'body' or 'corpse'..... and the vast majority use 'eagles', not 'vultures'.

Jesus does not imply that those 'taken' are taken by 'demons'. I don't see anywhere in the passage that refers to 'demons'. 

 Eagles are sometimes symbolic of angels..... see Rev 8:13

The key wording here is talking about the gathering. Read all of Luke 17 and you will see. 

So what scripture is saying is...."Wherever the body is ( the church, the believers, the saints, etc) there the angels  gather..... or gather them together"

We can't just cherry pick one or two lines from a passage and try and justify an obscure meaning. We have to look at the whole passage.... all of Luke 17. And when we do that, it clearly tells of the ' gathering'.

Nope.... can't agree here. See my reply above.

Shalom, @JoeCanada and @choir loft.

It's simpler than that. This is a saying like, "You can't get blood out of a turnip."

Look at the context!

Luke 17:22-37 (KJV)

22 And he said unto the disciples,

"The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. 23 And they (the HUNTERS) shall say to you (the ESCAPEES),

"'See here (is the Messiah)!';

or,

"'see there (He is)!':

"go not after them, nor follow them! 24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven (under the sky), shineth unto the other part under heaven (under the sky); so shall also the Son of man be in his day. 25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation

26 "And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all

28 "Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 

31 "In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

37 And they answered and said unto him,

"Where, Lord?"

And he said unto them,

"Wheresoever the body (carcass or carcase) is, thither will the eagles (vultures) be gathered together!"

Some of these comparisons were used in the Olivet Discourse, as well; so, many think this is part of the Olivet Discourse, but ... it's not. The Olivet Discourse in Luke is found in chapter 21.

The ESCAPEES were the "carcass" and the HUNTERS were the "vultures!" The HUNTERS would try to TRICK the ESCAPEES to capture them and sell them, enslave them, or kill them, whichever they find to be more profitable to them.

The time in history when this made the best sense was in the Diaspora after Rome's destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. and in the Bar Kokhba revolt in 135 A.D. Both the Jews and the Christians (who were still mostly Jews at the time) were hiding in the catacombs and tunnels, attempting to survive the all-out assault on anyone who might be a Jew on the Roman hate list. Yeshua` warned His followers not to be deceived by these obvious ploys, telling them that His Coming would be FAR MORE FLAMBOYANT than a secretive arrival in some storage room or out in the desert.

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On 8/18/2022 at 12:31 PM, choir loft said:

Luke 17:30-37 is quite clear despite deliberate attempts to confuse the nature and purpose of vultures.  Jesus' disciples asked Him where the missing people were to be taken.  Jesus' response is very clear when He says "where there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather."  

Your post was long on opinion but short on facts. However, your above translation is simply false. Ptoma is the term for corpse; soma, used here by Luke, is a term for a live body throughout the New Testament. Including -- most notably with respect to this passage-- for the whole Church:

Rom. 12:4 For as we have many members in one body/soma, and all members have not the same office. 5 So we, being many, are one body /soma in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Col. 1:18 And He is the head of the body/soma the church. ... 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body /soma is of Christ.

No, the corpse is not of Christ! Rather, the live body of the Church is.

 

 

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On 6/9/2015 at 3:34 AM, George said:

Hello saints,

 

As I was going over this forum, it occurred to me that there's another position that isn't listed -- the "Pre-Wrath" position which is closely associated with the Mid-Tribulation position with a few nuances.

 

If you are a post-tribulation / pre-wrath advocate, use this thread to defend your position.

 

Your brother in the Lord with much agape love,

 

George

 

 

I have a question with all this pre post stuff. 

Shouldn't we be the vessels of the Lord, for Him to choose when to use us. 

Also, i thought scripture tells us to go out to the world. To be the children of God to all. To become a beacon for all to see. 

Isnt worrying about when we are going 'a lot' 'self' gratifying.

Shouldnt we be about our Father's business, instead of our own?

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I sometimes think the whole issue on the rapture is like smoke and mirrors to Christians. To keep them preoccupied and out of the picture. For Satan to go about his work, unhindered by Christians. While the Christians are predominantly fixated on the rapture

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