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What is the difference in the rapture and the second coming?


missmuffet

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Some additional thoughts on these two......

 

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 tells us what must take place before the resurrection / rapture.  There is no such thing as the imminent return of Christ before that happens.

 

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.  Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,  2 Thess 2:1-3

 

According to this passage, the resurrection / rapture (our gathering together to Him) will not come until after the apostasy and the revealing of the son of destruction.  Some have tried to interpret the apostasy (departure) as the rapture which makes no sense.

 

 

A fine observation Daze, this needs to be considered carefully by pre-tribbers, for it is more than valid ..

 

 

 

The resurrection / rapture happens at the seventh trumpet and Christ returns at the seventh bowl within the same day.  Yes, they are separate events separated by little if any time.  Once those who are Christ's are raised immortal (resurrection / rapture) they are outside of time.  They are at the marriage supper.  Time is of no consequence to them.

 

Seventh trumpet (resurrection / rapture):

 

And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

 

Seventh bowl (return of Christ):

 

Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl upon the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, “It is done.”  And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty.....And huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, *came down from heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague *was extremely severe.

 

Coincidence?

 

 

Excellent .. notice how even "off subject" scriptures match the post trib narrative?

 

Good work Daze.

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I been away for a while ,   I do not have time to answer completely these important issues , But I recommend that the Book of Revelation be the prime book for these things  , there is a promise to those that read and keep it , and not to add or take away from it without severe consequences . 

 

There are  the Premil Rapture and doctrines that came with it , are not of the of historical teaching of the NT . They tickle the ears of the hearers and so where adopted in and became very popular in the 1830s  onward, a distorted view of the Jews and discounting teachings of the NT saying they only apply to Jews and not the gentile church , this view was rejected by early Christians . And should be . there is not a special faith for the Jews , the Church is of jews gentiles men women etc .  All in Christ . no other faith at  all from heaven . The old testament is  fading away on account of the NT . read The book of Hebrews on this important subject . 

 

Many Christians believe that there is no 1000 yr Reign of Christ on earth ,  after reading Revelation I do not know how they could deny it . But many read Revelation with a mystical view and it does not seem real to them , it is a hard book to understand , and requires prayerful study . As things unfold the book will become more easily understood . There are special instructions in it , to keep . Blessing to those that Keep the Prophecy of the Book ! The Apostle John was the last of the Apostles as far as I know , and had a more complete prophecy of end times "the Book of Revelation "  therefore there is more in it than found elsewhere , when reading Peter 2 it sounds like he had a incomplete understanding of end times or not full knowledge ,He said a day is a 1000 yrs etc , well he died much earlier than John thats the reason I believe . There was a need for the Book of Revelation , and so it was given .   

 

I do not have the time I need to really get into so many important issues due to my profession . The open Bible is needed and much time . I hope to change this some day . 

 

Edited by bob2
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The Rapture/Resurrection is when:  The dead in Christ will rise and the living in Christ will be caught up together in the clouds to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and will become one with Christ, given their rewards, (Rev 2212And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.) which is their work to do in the reigning kingdom and then they will come back to the earth in their resurrected body with Christ to establish the Kingdom of God on the earth for the 1,000 years, which is the Second Coming.

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If you read (an unadulterated version of) the Bible, you cannot help conclude that any text which supposedly supports the rapture can be talking about the return of Christ and the destruction of the world.

 

I have yet to hear how any text referring to the rap cannot be applied to the one final event. If that is the case then we have no reason to include the rap idea into Christian thinking.

 

What is more the rappers often think that the event is a silent and secretive one, but all the texts surrounding this theme are about destruction, fire, elements melting, loud noise, trumpet sounds, a tempest, mountains slipping into the sea, the whole earth reeling like a drunkard under a severe earthquake. Then there is the brightness that every eye shall see, the resurrection, lightning, storm, the atmosphere rolling back the sea boiling under heat, just to name a few. It does not sound like a secret event at all.

 

Nothing in there about a train full of passengers suddenly losing their 'righteous driver' and allowing them to plow into death.

It sounds more like a middle eastern religion.

 

Now to be ready for the end, Jesus compares it to being ready against a thief, the idea is to be prepared all the time. It has to do with mental attitude and not the manner of His return. Jesus will not sneak into a private location. In fact, He even warned us not to take notice of secret events in regards to the appearing of our Lord. They are false christs. 

 

So this rap theory, who made it up and why? One set of texts - "where two are grinding at the mill - the one is taken the other is left"

 

Well if we want to go there for a rap theory, we might as well only have 50% of mill grinders going to heaven, too bad for the other trades. But it is not talking about a rap, it is talking about the unknown selection of those saved based on God's knowing and not on appearances. Two people seemingly doing the same thing, but one has his or her heart stayed on God, the other not. That is the issue. It is not the premise for a weird doctrine at all.

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What about the idea of the thousand years of reign on earth, supposedly a time of peace on earth with Christ?

 

So after destroying the world in a most horrendous way, there is a millennium of peace on earth?

 

People take the text in Revelation 20:6, they "shall reign with Him (Christ) a thousand years."

 

You have to be able to establish where Christ is to be able to reign with Him.

They presume that Christ has come to set up an earthly kingdom - much like the Jews who are still waiting for the messiah to set his kingdom up on earth.

 

I Thessalonians 4:17. We will meet the Lord in the air, in the clouds when He returns, to destroy the earth.

Jesus mentioned mansions in heaven, so that we may be with Him.

 

There is no doubt where the resurrected saints are going, they're going to heaven to live with Christ.

 

Eventually the earth will be the final resting place of heaven, but not until the thousand years are over, there is a judgment and a termination of the wicked, and then the earth is renewed.

 

The earth will not be a fit place for us to live until it is renewed.

 

The Bible even describes the time when the oceans are boiled up. What kind of world does leave leave us?

 

The only person on earth during the thousand years is the devil and his angels. If you are planning to stay here, that's all you'll have, a broken and dark world, quivering with recent earthquakes and waiting for the judgement day.

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No difference at all, they are the same event

 

Agreed.  There isn't even anything called the rapture in scripture either.

 

The word rapture comes from the Latin translation of scirpture, using the word "raptura" which is translated "caught up," not rapture.   

 

 

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

 

After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

 

 

There is nothing in the scrupture about a rapture.    

 

There is nothing in scripture about a secret coming of Christ that no one sees or hears.   There is only Christ coming visibly, loudly, with fanfare - and the first thing that happens is the dead are resurrected, and after that the living are caught up.   

 

Rapture theology requires

 

a third coming of Christ

 

a rapture BEFORE the resurrection

 

The rapture doctrine has everything about the 2nd coming backwards.

 

 

As we see, scripture says otherwise.

Edited by thereselittleflower
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What about the idea of the thousand years of reign on earth, supposedly a time of peace on earth with Christ?

 

So after destroying the world in a most horrendous way, there is a millennium of peace on earth?

 

People take the text in Revelation 20:6, they "shall reign with Him (Christ) a thousand years."

 

You have to be able to establish where Christ is to be able to reign with Him.

They presume that Christ has come to set up an earthly kingdom - much like the Jews who are still waiting for the messiah to set his kingdom up on earth.

 

I Thessalonians 4:17. We will meet the Lord in the air, in the clouds when He returns, to destroy the earth.

Jesus mentioned mansions in heaven, so that we may be with Him.

 

There is no doubt where the resurrected saints are going, they're going to heaven to live with Christ.

 

Eventually the earth will be the final resting place of heaven, but not until the thousand years are over, there is a judgment and a termination of the wicked, and then the earth is renewed.

 

The earth will not be a fit place for us to live until it is renewed.

 

The Bible even describes the time when the oceans are boiled up. What kind of world does leave leave us?

 

The only person on earth during the thousand years is the devil and his angels. If you are planning to stay here, that's all you'll have, a broken and dark world, quivering with recent earthquakes and waiting for the judgement day.

 

 

   There is only one place that speaks of this and that is in the most highly symbolic book of the bible, and is a most highly symbolic number.  It is never used literally anwhere in the bible.  It's symbolic nature is illustrated by Peter when he says

 

2 Peter 3:8

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

 

 

There is no actual support in scripture for millenialism.  One has to wrest the scriptures to make them appear to say otherwise. but when one examines them closely, it all folds like a house of cards.   I used to believe in the millenial reign of Christ.  I examined its underpinnings and found nothing of substance to my shock and surprise.

 

After the resurrection comes the Great White Throne Judgement.  There is nothing else in-between.

Edited by thereselittleflower
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What about the idea of the thousand years of reign on earth, supposedly a time of peace on earth with Christ?

 

So after destroying the world in a most horrendous way, there is a millennium of peace on earth?

 

People take the text in Revelation 20:6, they "shall reign with Him (Christ) a thousand years."

 

You have to be able to establish where Christ is to be able to reign with Him.

They presume that Christ has come to set up an earthly kingdom - much like the Jews who are still waiting for the messiah to set his kingdom up on earth.

 

I Thessalonians 4:17. We will meet the Lord in the air, in the clouds when He returns, to destroy the earth.

Jesus mentioned mansions in heaven, so that we may be with Him.

 

There is no doubt where the resurrected saints are going, they're going to heaven to live with Christ.

 

Eventually the earth will be the final resting place of heaven, but not until the thousand years are over, there is a judgment and a termination of the wicked, and then the earth is renewed.

 

The earth will not be a fit place for us to live until it is renewed.

 

The Bible even describes the time when the oceans are boiled up. What kind of world does leave leave us?

 

The only person on earth during the thousand years is the devil and his angels. If you are planning to stay here, that's all you'll have, a broken and dark world, quivering with recent earthquakes and waiting for the judgement day.

 

 

   There is only one place that speaks of this and that is in the most highly symbolic book of the bible, and is a most highly symbolic number.  It is never used literally anwhere in the bible.  It's symbolic nature is illustrated by Peter when he says

 

2 Peter 3:8

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

 

 

There is no actual support in scripture for millenialism.  One has to wrest the scriptures to make them appear to say otherwise. but when one examines them closely, it all folds like a house of cards.   I used to believe in the millenial reign of Christ.  I examined its underpinnings and found nothing of substance to my shock and surprise.

 

After the resurrection comes the Great White Throne Judgement.  There is nothing else in-between.

 

 

Whatever time we want to appoint to the thousand years may differ - but I wanted to make the point about the sequence of events according to what is written.

 

What I read is, that after the thousand years are over, there is a resurrection of the dead wicked, who are shown their role and choices in the great battle between good and evil, and their rejection of light, then there is a destruction of them, then the earth is renewed.

 

Having said that, I don't mean that the entire book of Revelation should be read as a sequence of the written events, whether in symbol or not, but it in similar style to Genesis 1, 2 and 3. and Daniel for instance, where the events are described from different perspectives, with different aspects in focus, in the same way that a person tells of an experience, giving an overall picture first and filling in the details later. So sometimes it seems like separate stories, but is just talking about the same thing.

 

Revelation 20 talks about Satan being let loose and deceiving the nations, and yet after it talks about the resurrection of the dead, and the great white throne. One talking about the fate of Satan the other about the judgement event and the resurrection not necessarily in order.

 

But it is interesting what you have said about no time between death and the resurrection and judgement.

Paul said that after death is the judgement. As far as the dead are concerned they don't know how long they have been dead, because according to the Bible "the dead know not anything" they wake up with the resurrection, and the time period between falling unconscious in death and waking up is zero.

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There is no actual support in scripture for millenialism.

 

Since "a thousand years" (Gk chilia ete) is repeated six times in the space of seven verses (Rev 20:1-7), and a thousand years = one millennium, then those who claim that there is no support for the Millennium are engaged in one of the following mental gymnastics: (a) ignoring Scripture when it does not suit their preconceptions, (b) avoiding the plain statements of Scripture for the same reason, © allegorizing or spiritualizing or dismissing this passage because it is in serious conflict with their false theologies and/or (d) misapplying Scripture as Augustine did when he claimed he was already in the Millennium.

 

The Millennium corresponds to numerous OT prophecies which reveal that the Lord Jesus Christ will personally establish universal peace, prosperity, and righteousness, on this earth as has never ever been experienced.  No man or human goverments can ever accomplish this.

 

It is not only amazing, but disappointing and disheartening to see Christians strongly resisting the pre-tribulation Rapture and the glorious Millennium which follows all the severe judgments in Revelation.  It would appear that the wonderful works of God in the future are a threat to believers rather than an encouragement.

 

One could take each and every one of the statements which have been made  to oppose these events and show their errors, but ultimately people will choose to believe whatever they wish to believe, therefore there is no profit in disputing these misunderstandings.

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Revelation 20 talks about Satan being let loose and deceiving the nations, and yet after it talks about the resurrection of the dead, and the great white throne. One talking about the fate of Satan the other about the judgement event and the resurrection not necessarily in order.

 

Why "not necessarily in order"?  There is no compelling reason whatsoever to assume that the book of Revelation is a hodge-podge of events in no particular order.  Quite the opposite.  Revelation is by and large in chronological sequence, and where there are parenthetical events, they are exceptions.  Proof? Are the seven seals opened as 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 or are they opened as 5-2-7-1-6-4-3?  The same applies to all the judgments which follow.  God is a God of order.

 

Coming back to Revelation 20, what we see is perfectly chronological:

1. Satan is bound for 1,000 years so that he cannot sabotage the reign of Christ.

2. Thrones of judgment are set up and judgments occur (sheep vs goats).

3. The Tribulation Saints (who were beheaded) are resurrected.

4. The unrighteous dead remain in Hades until their final judgment.

5. All those who are a part of the first resurrection (including the Church) live and reign with Christ for 1,000 years.

6. Satan is once again loosed for a season and gathers all the enemies of God, Christ, and Israel to the battle of Gog and Magog.

7. All the enemies of Christ at this battle are destroyed supernaturally.

8. Satan is cast into the Lake of Fire, where the Beast (the Antichrist) and the False Prophet have already been consigned.

9. The Great White Throne Judgment commences and all the unrighteous dead are resurrected to stand before God and be judged out of the books recording their works.

10. Those not found in the book of life (meaning all of them) are cast into the Lake of Fire.

11. Hades is metaphorically cast into the Lake of Fire since all its occupants are now there, and Hades will not exist any longer.

12. Death is metaphorically cast into the Lake of Fire, since there will be no more sin on this earth, therefore no more death.  "The last enemy to be destroyed is Death".

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