U.S.A. Gun Capitol of the World! Murder Capitol? Not Even Close&#3

[The_Patriot21]

Maybe good points but poorly thought out, and ignoring anything else. If you only compare gun violence, yes the US has a higher gun violence. But, that's a very very narrow and biased view, and one can only have that view if you were to ignore all other factors.

Such as, england and Australia are surrounded by water. Which makes it difficult to smuggle guns in. America has two landlocked countries one with a third world, crime ridden country, that we refuse to secure the border of. Until we do, the bad guys will always get guns. Period. End of story.

The next factor is you have to compare all violent crime or your flat out ignoring the big picture. Such as violent crime without guns skyrocketed after guns were banned in the UK and Australia. The problem is the heart-people have been killing each other since Cain and able. Even if by some miracle you COULD get all the guns out of America, mass killers would just resort to other methods, such as bombs, which can be made from stuff anyone could buy from your local hardware store.

Is the guy in the video playing loose with the statistics? Absolutely not. He's looking at the big picture, which most of liberal America is incapable of.

[AnythingIsPossible]

Maybe good points but poorly thought out

How so ?

 

If you only compare gun violence, yes the US has a higher gun violence.

But, that's a very very narrow and biased view, and one can only have that view if you were to ignore all other factors.

Biased in what way ?, it's simple statistics not a philosophical viewpoint ??

 

Such as, england and Australia are surrounded by water. Which makes it difficult to smuggle guns in. America has two landlocked countries one with a third world, crime ridden country,

that we refuse to secure the border of. Until we do, the bad guys will always get guns. Period. End of story.

Yes, but failing to see what the point is, how the guns get there is of no value to the points being made how does that matter ?

 

The next factor is you have to compare all violent crime or your flat out ignoring the big picture.

Yes I agree but again no one is arguing that point, it was already pointed out that the U.S.A. is not at the top of the list for violent crime.

 

Such as violent crime without guns skyrocketed after guns were banned in the UK and Australia.

I cannot speak for Australia I will look this up, but crime in the U.K. as whole is significantly down

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/apr/24/crime-rate-england-wales-falls-lowest-level-33-years

 

The problem is the heart-people have been killing each other since Cain and able. Even if by some miracle you COULD get all the guns out of America, mass killers would just resort to other methods, such as bombs,

which can be made from stuff anyone could buy from your local hardware store.

Well yes, but again that's irrelevant to gun crime, no one is arguing that having a gun makes you kill anyone as of itself. But the U.K. too has had people who intend harm to others, but do not have the number of mass killings you have because the tools generally are not available.

There are of course exceptions like 9/11 and 7/7 but exceptions they are not the norm when people decide to kill others.

 

Is the guy in the video playing loose with the statistics? Absolutely not. He's looking at the big picture, which most of liberal America is incapable of

Okay this is a simple one he's loosing all your big cities that have high homicide rates, removing them from the statistics, and then comparing them with whole countries without doing the same, do you really think that provides an accurate picture ?

It is a golden rule in statistical analyses, it's a bit like me saying ''well if I disregard all my credit card debts and loans, then I owe nothing to anyone and that person over there who owed half as much as me is more in debt than me'' it makes for nonsense results.

Andy

Edited July 2, 2015 by AnythingIsPossible

[other one]

Andy when they do decide to do so there they blow up busses and cut people's heads off.  In China last week a small group of gangsters went into a crowded place with knives and killed 39 and injured over 100 others.

 

It really is something to watch someone with a sword who has practiced taking people out.   I know people who if they were of a mind could go to the maul and kill people all day and you could not stop them without a gun, or a really big brick.

 

I have read of people who can kill you with a sling much like David did Goliath at 50 yards and almost never miss.

 

Guns are easier to shoot, but a hand gun isn't very accurate unless you practice a lot.  it would be easier to build a pressure cooker bomb and take out a bunch....

 

Besides that, knives really hurt and a gun shot puts you into shock for a while and if you are lucky you can either get to the hospital or die before real pain starts.....    so if you are going to do me, do it with a gun please.

[The_Patriot21]

I explained how so....this is exactly what I mean by critical thinking.

 

I also explained how so. The argument, is that taking away guns will make the US safer. When, it won't.

 

How the guns get there make a big difference. On an island, where its difficult to smuggle weapons in, gun control rules actually work at keeping guns out of the hands of the bad guys-because they can't be smuggled in. Or if they can, nowhere near the numbers a landlocked nation can get them in. Illegal guns are literally pouring over the US border-probably as fast as illegals and drugs. All gun control laws would do in the US, is take the guns out of the hands of the good, honest citizen who wouldn't use them to kill a lot of people anyway. Any criminal who had no regard for the law would still have ample access to guns. So where they get there-or the ability to get there, does matter, because of the availibility of said weapons, can effect the gun violence rate.

 

The US is not at the top of the list of violent crime. We do agree on that, and this video did indeed prove that, along with point out that many countries with far stricter gun control laws are higher then it is, as well as pointing out factual statistics inside country of crime rates and gun ownership in the US and how the statistics work. You say UK doesn't have mass shootings? how about the Cumbria shootings in 2010? (12 people killed 11 injured) interesting, goes to show even on a island where its difficult to smuggle in guns, someone was able to obtain one, and shoot people. How about the london bombings in 2005? appears someone couldn't get ahold of a gun so they resorted to bombs.

 

Yes, america likely has "more mass killings then the UK" but its also a far larger country with a far higher population.  Hes not "loosing all the big cities with high homicide rates" in fact he lists the highest ones, perhaps you need to go back and rewatch it, only paying attention this time. He breaks down the crime rates between the big cities and the small ones like plano to prove a point. which he did a very good job of, I mean lets compare the homicide rate between chicago and plano...

 

Like ive said and what other said, one does not need a firearm to kill lots of people very quickly. To suggest taking away firearms will limit mass killings, is to A: ignore humankinds vast imagination when it comes to finding ways to KILL people, and B: to ignore the big picture.

[AnythingIsPossible]

I explained how so....this is exactly what I mean by critical thinking.

I also explained how so. The argument, is that taking away guns will make the US safer. When, it won't.

 

Actually it does I've already provided a link for the falling crime in the U.K. We have had no parallel increase in homicides by other means

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/apr/24/crime-rate-england-wales-falls-lowest-level-33-years

 

And in Australia its had a good effect.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/08/02/did-gun-control-work-in-australia/

 

I Quote

So what have the Australian laws actually done for homicide and suicide rates? Howard cites a study (pdf) by Andrew Leigh of Australian National University and Christine Neill of Wilfrid Laurier University finding that the firearm homicide rate fell by 59 percent, and the firearm suicide rate fell by 65 percent, in the decade after the law was introduced, without a parallel increase in non-firearm homicides and suicides. That provides strong circumstantial evidence for the law's effectiveness.

The paper also estimated that buying back 3,500 guns per 100,000 people results in a 35 to 50 percent decline in the homicide rate

 

Now as for the higher gun crime rate cities in the who have banned guns and have very strict licensing laws did so because gun crime was already out of control, way way above the national average to use them as an example of how gun laws don't affect the crime rate is statistical stupidity in itself.  Follow you own advice and think Critically and you wont fall for such simple tricks.

 

Now lets get to the city comparison here is what he says .. pay attention..

 

If ALL of America had the same murder per capita rate of Plano Texas (the lowest per capita murder rate in the U.S.) (0.4)

then America would not be 111 but 211 on the list.

 

He THEN compares the figure with other country's statistics (high crime rate cities included) and says ..look hey we would be better than them, Pat seriously.. you really cannot see that its an absolutely meaningless and deceptive comparison. ? 

 

I feel much safer here in the U.K. I am far less likely to be a victim of crime than in the U.S. yes the population of the U.S. is bigger, but the country also is much bigger, we are far more densely populated than the U.S. and that's where most crime takes place, really we should have higher per capita crime rate than you.

 

Andy

 

Added after main post: what is of interest is that Detroit s homocide rate dropped by 14% 2012 ~2013

 

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Detroit

In 2013, Detroit's number of criminal homicides was 333, a reduction of 14% compared to 2012. However, taken in context by population, Detroit remains as a city with one of the highest rates per capita for homicide in the United States.

 

Edited July 2, 2015 by AnythingIsPossible

[The_Patriot21]

yes he said that-the keyword there was IF. It was a comparison, a "IF all of America had that crime rate, then they would be number 211. that is indeed a true statement. He didn't say that it IS, just that IF. I mean, I have a hard time understanding how you could misunderstand that, unless you are doing so intentionally, in which case, I have no further use debating you, as you have absolutely no interest in the facts. If its not the case, then you really need to watch it again, and actually pay attention.

 

anyway, if its the latter you may find this a little more interesting.

 

http://www.gunfacts.info/gun-control-myths/guns-in-other-countries/

[Omegaman 3.0]

Adding fuel:

 

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/?Article_ID=17847  effect of gun laws and violent crimes in Australia - correlation or not? and does correlation equal cause?

 

and I know there have been a lot of articles on the reliability of U.K. crime stats, such as http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10511503/Fall-in-crime-overstated-says-expert.html

[AnythingIsPossible]

yes he said that-the keyword there was IF. It was a comparison, a "IF all of America had that crime rate, then they would be number 211. that is indeed a true statement. He didn't say that it IS, just that IF. I mean, I have a hard time understanding how you could misunderstand that, unless you are doing so intentionally, in which case, I have no further use debating you, as you have absolutely no interest in the facts. If its not the case, then you really need to watch it again, and actually pay attention.

 

anyway, if its the latter you may find this a little more interesting.

 

http://www.gunfacts.info/gun-control-myths/guns-in-other-countries/

 

Really.. really I'm just dumbfounded you fall for such silly sleights of hand..

Yes of course IF all America had the same rate as Plato then it would be ranked... etc  but all America certainly does not have that rate.

.

that's what I actually said, but it's a meaningless and dishonest way to view things.

 

Let me try and explain in a simple way... again

If I were to present a video about crime statistics as a whole in the U.S.A. and I said on the video that there was a small town that had no recorded crime, then I went on to say that IF all America was like this then it would be flat bottom of the crime statistics in the world, and then to add to that tomfoolery I compared it with country's that I was taking the whole country's crime rate into account , and then went on to say that country was worse than my very best example and that it was a crime ridden nation when compared to the U.S.A..

 

I would sincerely hope you would shake your head, see through my ruse and say to yourself that guy's nuts!!

 

It is not a fact, not should it be presented as one it is purely a mental exercise a bad one at that, but bears no resemblance whatsoever to reality.

 

 

http://www.gunfacts.info/gun-control-myths/guns-in-other-countries/

 

Hmm let me see a URL with the word 'guns' and 'facts' in it must be true hey, though I do like the massive metallic  'GUN' and plea for donations, and the the flashing support us banners.. oh and the pop ups... must be a unbiased professional trustworthy site

 

Andy

 

Edited for kindess

Edited July 2, 2015 by AnythingIsPossible

[AnythingIsPossible]

Adding fuel:

 

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/?Article_ID=17847  effect of gun laws and violent crimes in Australia - correlation or not? and does correlation equal cause?

 

and I know there have been a lot of articles on the reliability of U.K. crime stats, such as http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10511503/Fall-in-crime-overstated-says-expert.htyou forts link has statistics from

 

No fuel added at all..

 

Your first link has very old statistics (2002 and 2006/7) there is much more modern data available, the article itself was written in 2009 (6 years old) , I did try and dig out the information it quoted for those years it covered though but couldn't find any that correlated with that report in the archives from its quoted source, I will try later when I have more time.

 

EDIT: I have found out why there is no findable correlation between it's report and the source, it was in fact sourcing from freerepublic.com and not from the Australian Bureau of crime statistics.

 

As for the second link, Yes of course statistics are often challenged, that in my opinion is a good thing, but they do not doubt that crime is on it's way down.

 

 

Andy

Edited July 2, 2015 by AnythingIsPossible

[Guest Teditis]

Andy is right, this isn't a philosophical thing... numbers are numbers

and statistics are easily read. Mixing the two leads to confusion.

Guns are very handy things for violent death and where ever there is

a higher concentration of guns, gun-deaths are going to be higher,

that's simple critical thinking in a quintessential nut-shell.

 

The mixing of data from deaths and gun-related deaths is pure nonsense

when trying to establish the reason for murder... people will kill with whatever

is handy... but lazy killers might be dissuaded from violence if easy-to-use tools

are less available.

 

That being said... I like guns and think that the USA should keep our rights

to Keep and Bear arms intact.