could man enter heaven before Christ atonement

[vic66]

1)Could men from old testament enter heaven before Christ atonement on the Cross?

 

2) what and where is Abraham bosom?

 

3)where is paradise ?

 

4)when does the Saved received their reward?

[Ezra]

1)Could men from old testament enter heaven before Christ atonement on the Cross?

No, they were in Abraham's bosom.

2) what and where is Abraham bosom?

It was in Sheol/Hades in "the lower parts of the earth" ("the heart of the earth") until the resurrection of Christ.  Christ was there for three days and three nights before His resurrection.

3)where is paradise ?

In the New Jerusalem in Heaven.

4)when does the Saved received their reward?

After the Rapture and at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

 

One could provide chapter and verse, but it would be more profitable for you to search the Scriptures for yourself.  Acquire some legitimate Bible study tools.

[missmuffet]

1)Could men from old testament enter heaven before Christ atonement on the Cross?

 

2) what and where is Abraham bosom?

 

3)where is paradise ?

 

4)when does the Saved received their reward?

1)The unbelievers who died from the OT and before Jesus died on the cross went to Paradise.After Jesus died on the cross he went to Paradise and took those believers to heaven with Him.

2)Abraham's bosom is another name for Paradise

3)Paradise was heaven and there was a large ravine that separated Paradise which is where the believers went after they died and Hades which was where the unbelievers are.Those in Hades could see those in Paradise and what a wonder existence they were in.

4)The believers receive reward or rewards are burned up depending on their judgment after the rapture of the church.This is called the Judgment Seat of Christ or the Bema Seat judgment.

[vic66]

My understanding of paradise =third heavens not Abraham bosom.

 

saved Christian wait in Abraham bosom a place where the righteous soul are held until the rapture /1st resurrection.

 

That men could not go to heaven before atonement because this would be in opposition to the type and shadow where only the high priest could enter into the most Holy place just once every year. Not with out blood which he shed for himself and his family, the children of Israel, the tabernacle and all the vessel therein.

 

So likewise Christ only could enter the antitype, the real most Holy Place, Heaven throne room with his own blood which he shed not for himself but for the sins of the world. If any unconsecrated person were their it would over turn the scriptures. Which teaches that with out the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins, and it was not possible that the blood of animals could wash away sin. 

 

As under the law they offered sacrifices of lambs, pigeon's, bullocks, turtle dove's  etc but none of these could make them perfect as pertaining to the conscience therefore  their sin's remained. This is what hindered them(old testament saints) from going into Gods immediate presences.Heb10, Heb 8

 

Christ because he was sinless could full fill the office of High priest, scape goat, sin offering, burnt offering, atonement, then sit down at the right hand of God to make intercession on behalf of repentant sinners and the church. He as made the final sacrifice for all man kind his own body which he gave for the world. Heb 9

 

Also Christ had to be the first man into heaven to full fill the scripture's concerning first fruit Lev 23:10,Ex 23:16,

 

1Cor 15:20-23 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruit of them that slept. For since by man came death by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive . But every man in his own order. Christ the First fruits, after ward they that are Christ's at his coming.(Jesus is the first manto rise from the dead never  to die again,first to have  immortal, incorruptible, imperishable body.)First man to enter into heaven or forerunner Heb6:20

 

If men try to get into heaven any other way but through Christ the head they were  and are thieves and robbers .

Edited July 7, 2015 by vic66

[Sister]

1)Could men from old testament enter heaven before Christ atonement on the Cross?

 

Hi vic66

 

No, Jesus is the Firstfruit, the first risen from the dead.  Others have not gone before him.

 

2) what and where is Abraham bosom?

 

 

Abraham's bosom is only a "parable".

Once the kingdom on earth is established (at the beginning of the millennium) it is determined who will be dwelling in the kingdom and who won't.

Not only will the saints will be in the kingdom with Christ, but the remnants chosen of Israel also.

All those who were not chosen for the kingdom, the city of truth (Zion) cannot switch places and come in.  All those who are accepted will never be removed.

 

Isaiah 33:20   Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken.

 

This is when there will be gnashing of the teeth.  There will be survivors who will be spared from death, and they be allowed  to witness that they have missed out.  This will refer to all those who took Zion for granted thinking they belonged, but Christ did not see it that way, and thrust them out.

 

Luke 13:28   There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

 

 Isaiah 33:14   The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

 

3)where is paradise ?

 

 

It's the kingdom I just mentioned in the 1000 year reign.  The kingdom on earth, Zion, the City of Truth.  It will be established in Israel, Jerusalem it's headquarters.  It will be cleaned up from all the war and ruins and turned into a paradise, spiritually and physically.  The land will be turned into good soil.

 

Isaiah 51:3   For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, (paradise) and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.

(Spiritually and physically speaking - she will be well watered with truth, all living there will be at peace - it will be a paradise)

 

 Isaiah 61:3   To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

 

Psalms 69:35   For God will save Zion, and will build the cities of Judah: that they may dwell there, and have it in possession.

 

 

4)when does the Saved received their reward?

 

At the 7th trump, the last trump.  This is when Christ comes with his reward.

 

Revelation 22:12   And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

 

Matthew 16:27   For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

[missmuffet]

 

1)Could men from old testament enter heaven before Christ atonement on the Cross?

 

Hi vic66

 

No, Jesus is the Firstfruit, the first risen from the dead.  Others have not gone before him.

 

2) what and where is Abraham bosom?

 

 

Abraham's bosom is only a "parable".

Once the kingdom on earth is established (at the beginning of the millennium) it is determined who will be dwelling in the kingdom and who won't.

Not only will the saints will be in the kingdom with Christ, but the remnants chosen of Israel also.

All those who were not chosen for the kingdom, the city of truth (Zion) cannot switch places and come in.  All those who are accepted will never be removed.

 

Isaiah 33:20   Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken.

 

This is when there will be gnashing of the teeth.  There will be survivors who will be spared from death, and they be allowed  to witness that they have missed out.  This will refer to all those who took Zion for granted thinking they belonged, but Christ did not see it that way, and thrust them out.

 

Luke 13:28   There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

 

 Isaiah 33:14   The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

 

3)where is paradise ?

 

 

It's the kingdom I just mentioned in the 1000 year reign.  The kingdom on earth, Zion, the City of Truth.  It will be established in Israel, Jerusalem it's headquarters.  It will be cleaned up from all the war and ruins and turned into a paradise, spiritually and physically.  The land will be turned into good soil.

 

Isaiah 51:3   For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, (paradise) and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.

(Spiritually and physically speaking - she will be well watered with truth, all living there will be at peace - it will be a paradise)

 

 Isaiah 61:3   To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

 

Psalms 69:35   For God will save Zion, and will build the cities of Judah: that they may dwell there, and have it in possession.

 

 

4)when does the Saved received their reward?

 

At the 7th trump, the last trump.  This is when Christ comes with his reward.

 

Revelation 22:12   And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

 

Matthew 16:27   For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

 

[missmuffet]

What do you mean by Abraham's bosom is "only a parable"?

[Sister]

What do you mean by Abraham's bosom is "only a parable"?

Hi bopeep

 

It's only a story.  An illustration to show us the moral of the story.  Read the story carefully boppeep, does it remind you of something?  Jesus used Abraham and Lazarus name only for the story, to illustrate.  Please read the story again and tell me what you think is the message.

 

Luke 16:19   There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

Luke 16:20   And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

Luke 16:21   And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

Luke 16:22   And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Luke 16:23   And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luke 16:24   And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luke 16:25   But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Luke 16:26   And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Luke 16:27   Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

Luke 16:28   For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Luke 16:29   Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Luke 16:30   And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Luke 16:31   And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[missmuffet]

 

What do you mean by Abraham's bosom is "only a parable"?

Hi bopeep

 

It's only a story.  An illustration to show us the moral of the story.  Read the story carefully boppeep, does it remind you of something?  Jesus used Abraham and Lazarus name only for the story, to illustrate.  Please read the story again and tell me what you think is the message.

 

Luke 16:19   There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

Luke 16:20   And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

Luke 16:21   And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

Luke 16:22   And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Luke 16:23   And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luke 16:24   And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luke 16:25   But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Luke 16:26   And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Luke 16:27   Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

Luke 16:28   For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Luke 16:29   Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Luke 16:30   And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Luke 16:31   And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

Jesus's Parables were stories that were cast alongside a truth in order to illustrate that truth.A story with a heavenly meaning.

[Ezra]

Abraham's bosom is only a "parable".

That's a common erroneous assumption just because there are parables preceding this narrative in chapter 15. 

 

But the Holy Spirit is careful to distinguish this narrative from parables.  The parables probably end at Luke 15:32, and the narrative of the unjust steward (Lk 16:1-8) appears to be a real life scenario with a very significant lesson.  It starts with "And he said also..." whereas Lk 15:3 says "And he spake this parable unto them, saying..."

 

But at Luke 16:14 we see an end to the parables and the response of the Pharisees to those "sayings" of Jesus.  Then we have Christ's teaching on divorce, followed abruptly by the story of the rich man and Lazarus.  None of the parables use specific names such as Lazarus and Abraham, but this narrative is very specific, therefore this is a revelation of the unseen world (Sheol) by Christ Himself.  It reveals two *compartments*separated by a wide chasm in Hades, one for the righteous dead, the other for the unrighteous.  We also have a dialogue between Abraham and Dives or Diverus (as the rich man is sometime called).

 

It is truly amazing how and why some Christians would like to dismiss this narrative as a parable, when there is no such indication, and there is no other teaching on the unseen world in the NT similar to this.

 

As to the comment above that this story is "illustrating" something, exactly what is it "illustrating"?  Parables use ordinary life illustrations for teaching a spiritual lesson, but this narrative is about something which men know nothing about.  No one has visited Hades and returned to earth.  Christ was in Hades and then went to Heaven.