Ezra Posted July 29, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2015 Can we assume these elders have been resurrected with their new bodies, given white raiment, and have received their crowns in judgment, as we see and read them described?....... I believe so. That is correct. And they can be elders from any period in Church history until the Rapture. There is no viable reason to claim that they are "representative of the Church" or Israel, or anything else. If they are called "elders" then that is precisely who they are. Many have a tendency to complicate things unnecessarily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted July 29, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2015 Note: There is a duplicate thread of the same title which needs to be deleted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted July 29, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.04 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2015 My next question: Can we assume these elders have been resurrected with their new bodies, given white raiment, and have received their crowns in judgment, as we see and read them described?....... I believe so. Hi Rev2015 Yes, well explained. I agree we can assume that these elders are men, and have been resurrected already, but only them. Do you think this could be another little clue? James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. A different (special) kind of firstfruits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev2015 Posted August 1, 2015 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 60 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 71 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/14/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 1, 2015 Hi Rev2015 Yes, well explained. I agree we can assume that these elders are men, and have been resurrected already, but only them. Do you think this could be another little clue? James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. A different (special) kind of firstfruits. Hey Sister, I believe the 24 elders were resurrected at the last trump along with the rest of those who have died in Messiah/Christ as described by Paul. John is witnessing this event as a vision of future events and sees his own resurrection along with those of us who are saved at the rapture. This I believe, is what John is describing in Revelation chapter 4. I am not sure if James 1:18 fits the context here. In reading through the chapter it is referring to the consequences of conceding to temptations, and being a kind of firstfruits is not necessarily being a firstfruits, and I get no indication of this being in reference to a resurrection or rapture, but I am not dogmatic, being a kind of firstfruits could very well imply, we should always be inspired to be Christlike in all things. I also believe it is possible for the meaning of a kind of firstfruits, could be the first to be rewarded in a judgment, such as the Bema Judgement. They may receive there crowns first. Another question I see that can be asked, and if one can accept the obvious answer, then the timing of the event known as the resurrection and rapture in the tribulation timeline can be clearly known and understood. The answer to this one question will give you the answer to when the resurrection and rapture will take place. If we accept the 24 elders are redeemed men of Christ/Messiah, and as described in scripture they have been given their glorified bodies dressed in white raiment, they have also been judged at the Bema, and have been given their crowns of glory. It then can be assumed they have heard the last trump and have been resurrected. So here's the question. Are the 24 elders present in the throne room of God, as described by the verses we’ve read, before the 1st seal is open??? ..........This is an absolute, yes. If so, this should answer the question for us, of when the resurrection and rapture happens. If it is before the 1st seal is open, we can only come to one conclusion. If the 1st seal releases the antichrist to rise to power followed by the covenant with many which will begin the tribulation. Then the resurrection and rapture must happen before the tribulation as scripture indicates. This should for many of us, remove any speculation of when the resurrection and rapture as described by Paul will happen. I believe the answer has been with the 24 elders all along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bible2 Posted August 2, 2015 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 642 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 405 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/08/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted August 2, 2015 bopeep1909 said in post 14: Nowhere in Scripture do angels ever rule or sit on thrones. Note that if even the devil can sit on a throne (Revelation 2:13, Revelation 13:2b), then some angels can sit on thrones (Revelation 4:4). bopeep1909 said in post 14: The word elder would be inappropriate to refer to angels, who do not age. The 24 elders can be a special group of elder angels simply in the sense of them having been created sometime before other angels. bopeep1909 said in post 14: In addition, the Greek word translated here as “elders” is never used to refer to angels . . . Note that that argument is like the argument of full preterism, which claims that the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can't be physical because all the other verses in the Bible where the original Greek word "stoicheion" (G4747) is used, refer to non-physical elements. The truth is that the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can be the only place in the Bible where "stoicheion" is used to refer to physical elements, just as, for example, Revelation 6:6 can be (and in fact is) the only place in the Bible where the Greek word "choinix" (G5518) is used at all. Similarly, Revelation can be the only place where "elders" refers to angels. bopeep1909 said in post 14: They wear the crowns of victory . . . Note that in Revelation 4:4, the original Greek word (stephanos: G4735) translated as crowns doesn't have to always refer to a crown of victory, but can sometimes refer to a crown signifying "honor generally" (Strong's Greek Dictionary). Also, angels can win victories (Revelation 12:7-9), and so can wear crowns of victory. bopeep1909 said in post 14: They wear the crowns of victory and have gone to the place prepared for them by their Redeemer (John 14:1-4). Note that there is no pre-tribulation idea in John 14:1-4, just as there is no "take you back" (somewhere). Instead, there is only a coming again of Jesus (i.e. his 2nd coming), and then a receiving of the church unto himself. John 14:2 means that one of the reasons Jesus left was to prepare a place for the church in the literal city of New Jerusalem, God the Father's house in heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). John 14:3 means Jesus' leaving to prepare a place for the church means he is not done with the church, but will come back to it. John 14:3 means the church will be received to Jesus where he will be first at his 2nd coming, which will be in the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17), before he lands on the earth at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3-21), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). The church will live in its place in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:24 to 22:5) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3) sometime after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15). For during the millennium, the physically resurrected church will be ruling on the present earth with the returned Jesus (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21). Also, the church has already come to God the Father's house, New Jerusalem, which is currently in heaven, in the spiritual sense of coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26, Matthew 26:28). Also, the souls of obedient people in the church go to God the Father's house when they die, for their still-conscious souls go into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And they go into paradise (Luke 23:43), which is in heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b,4), in the city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 22:2). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bible2 Posted August 2, 2015 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 642 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 405 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/08/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted August 2, 2015 Rev2015 said in post 15: They are described performing physical acts . . . Note that angels can perform physical acts, like how the 2 angels who rescued Lot and his family grabbed their hands to hasten them out of the city (Genesis 19:1,16). -- Rev2015 said in post 19: I believe the 24 elders were resurrected at the last trump along with the rest of those who have died in Messiah/Christ as described by Paul. John is witnessing this event as a vision of future events and sees his own resurrection along with those of us who are saved at the rapture. This I believe, is what John is describing in Revelation chapter 4. Do you mean the rapture will take believers into the 3rd heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b)? If so, note that no scripture requires believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the church will come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) to reign on the earth with him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the church will live on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted August 2, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 2, 2015 An elder is not referring to age, but a certain position of responsibility within the church of God. Elders in the early church were the real shepherds of the flock, while the apostles would teach and preach and move from one region to another, the elders remained with the people, organizing charity and meetings, praying and visiting the sick, teaching scripture etc. These elders in heaven are there to witness and support Christ in His ministry for the church on earth. They are human beings who have had the relevant character developed in their lives for the job. They are not angels. Revelation 5:9 shows that they have been redeemed from among men and made kings and priests. That did not happen to God's angels. They are representatives from every tribe, people and nation. This does not mean there are only 24 elders, but that there are 24 thrones upon which the elders sit when required. When Jesus was raised, He also took with Him a whole lot of people raised from the dead, from all ages and eras. These were not every saint that had lived by any means, but samples needed in heaven. These were the first fruits that Jesus took with Him to heaven to begin His ministry as High Priest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted August 2, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.69 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 2, 2015 There are only Two sets of twelve in Biblical history...12 leaders of 12 tribes of Israel and 12 apostles. To me it is reasonable that these are the 24 elders i agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted August 2, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 2, 2015 Regarding Rev 5:9 Scofield says: "Most early N.T. manuscripts omit 'us' in verse nine, and read 'them' and 'they' instead of 'us' and 'we' in verse 10." (footnote #3, p.1357) Infact NIV has the correct rendering Both Scofield, Westcott & Hort and their cohorts, as well as the NIV were utterly deceived about these "early NT manuscripts". Even the word "most" is misleading since there were only two corrupt Greek manuscripts upon which they relied to pervert the true readings of Scripture. One of the saddest spectacles in Christianity is how good and godly men (like Scofield) were thoroughly deceived by Westcott & Hort and their Revised Version of 1881 (which was followed by all the other modern versions). Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus were two of THE MOST CORRUPT MANUSCRIPTS in existence. They were elevated to the status of idols by Westcott & Hort, and almost everyone swallowed the lie. Westcott & Hort's theory about these manuscripts has been thoroughly debunked, but the truth has not caught up with most Christians. The NIV is one the the least reliable translations in existence, so "us" and "kings and priests" is the true reading. Getting back to the 24 elders, they are neither apostles, nor OT priests, nor angels. Why can't we simply believe what we read? Elders are elders, distinct from the Church, the angels, the cherubim and seraphim, the apostles, and all other entities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted August 3, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.69 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 3, 2015 Ezra, do you believe one translation can convey everything in the original text? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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