The Third Temple

[Kan]

You only need a third temple if you have misapplied the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation into the future somehow. I have not found support for either a third temple or a future application of the prophecies.

Namely because all of the anchor points in prophetic time agree with actual history, including the time of the death of Christ. Which the scripture agrees on.

But futurism has no reference points available from scripture, so people are left to guess when those times are supposed to begin and end. And we have hundreds of examples from Christendom which prove those applications to be false. 

Unless the prophecies are all determinable and interlocking from both history and scripture, there is no reason to believe in the myriads of interpretations of the future.

The temple in Ezekiel, was a vision of what Israel could have made. It was not just a temple, but a whole city with suburbs and vast amounts of surrounding land. It was to replicate the heavenly set up, where there is such a metropolis which connects to the main temple by a great street mentioned in Rev 22. And so on.

But this dream was not fulfilled, because Israel had other ideas - to become accustomed to the ways of the surrounding heathen nations. Israel could have been the world center for the gospel, but it failed. And as the prophecies foretold, the temple they had would be destroyed with Jerusalem.

The end of that theocracy has still not been accepted, as God said it would. People insist that the Messiah will yet come and that the temple will yet be rebuilt. Where does it say that the temple will be rebuilt in our day?

[mevosper]

It could have been their's, but they rejected the cornerstone.

[WilliamL]

You only need a third temple if you have misapplied the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation into the future somehow. I have not found support for either a third temple or a future application of the prophecies.

Namely because all of the anchor points in prophetic time agree with actual history, including the time of the death of Christ. Which the scripture agrees on.

But futurism has no reference points available from scripture, so people are left to guess when those times are supposed to begin and end. And we have hundreds of examples from Christendom which prove those applications to be false. 

Unless the prophecies are all determinable and interlocking from both history and scripture, there is no reason to believe in the myriads of interpretations of the future. ...

The end of that theocracy has still not been accepted, as God said it would. People insist that the Messiah will yet come and that the temple will yet be rebuilt. Where does it say that the temple will be rebuilt in our day?

Agree that a 3rd temple is not needed before Christ returns, but disagree with your view that "futurism has no reference points available from scripture." Christ told us very specific things to expect in his Matt. 24 discourse about his Second Coming, and those events have clearly not yet been fulfilled, so are yet future.

Here is a copy of something I just posted in the eschatology section on this subject:

Matthew 24:15-21 doesn't mention a temple at all, only "the holy place," a Hebraism for the place of the sanctuary of the Temple. In Daniel 9:17, Daniel prayed to God to "cause thy face to shine upon thy miqdash/holy place, which is desolate" -- the place was still holy even after the Babylonians had utterly destroyed the Temple and its sanctuary.

There is no scripture that speaks of the authorizing and/or building of a 3rd Temple before the Messiah comes. Who would be authorized to build it? For the previous two temples, as well as the Mosaic Tabernacle, God called and authorized specific men to manage the project. Anyone not so called and authorized by God to do so in our day would not be constructing anything holy.

Dan. 11:45 And he [the King of the North] shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas at the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. 12:1 At that time...there shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation...

The 12:1 passage is a near identical prophecy to what Jesus said would take place right after the Abomination of Desolation, so it is a no-brainer to see that Dan. 11:45 must be the AD. Any ruler setting up his camp upon the Temple Mount would in essence be "standing in the holy place" -- no Temple mentioned or needed to fulfill the prophecy.

A less likely but possible alternative is that the ruler will invite the Pope, the one who sets himself up as God in the spiritual temple of God, to the Temple Mount. Either way, Jesus made it clear the AD will take place in Jerusalem on the Temple Mount.

[Kan]

I have read your post, and I will study what you have put forward, because it rings true.

I don't know too much about how the AD is applied, because it is mentioned in conjunction with the apostasy of Israel in the days prior to the Babylonian captivity, and then Jesus picks up on it in Matthew - saying that the disciples would see a manifestation of it.

I used to think that the AD had something to do with the Roman army, but that does not seem to be the case, because it seems to be related to apostasy, which is a religious thing, not primarily civil or military. So could it be that when the leaders of Israel had totally rejected the ministry of the disciples that, they were the AD standing in the holy place? And that this condition removed the protection of God from Israel against Rome?

In regards to the temple or holy place, does that differ from the holy mountain? Which we read of in Daniel 11:45.

[BlindSeeker]

  Here are some noteworthy excerpts from the historian Josephus who was an eyewitness to the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem. He not only mentions "abominations" in the temple, he thoroughly addresses them and assigns guilt to those whereby they were committed as the very reason why God allowed them to be utterly destroyed.

Josephus - Wars Book 5 - Chap.1 - para. 3

3. But now the tyrant Simon, the son of Gioras, whom the people had invited in, out of the hopes they had of his assistance in the great distresses they were in, having in his power the upper city, and a great part of the lower, did now make more vehement assaults upon John and his party, because they were fought against from above also; yet was he beneath their situation when he attacked them, as they were beneath the attacks of the others above them. Whereby it came to pass that John did both receive and inflict great damage, and that easily, as he was fought against on both sides; and the same advantage that Eleazar and his party had over him, since he was beneath them, the same advantage had he, by his higher situation, over Simon. On which account he easily repelled the attacks that were made from beneath, by the weapons thrown from their hands only; but was obliged to repel those that threw their darts from the temple above him, by his engines of war; for he had such engines as threw darts, and javelins, and stones, and that in no small number, by which he did not only defend himself from such as fought against him, slew moreover many of the priests, as they were about their sacred ministrations. For notwithstanding these men were mad with all sorts of impiety, yet did they still admit those that desired to offer their sacrifices, although they took care to search the people of their own country beforehand, and both suspected and watched them; while they were not so much afraid of strangers, who, although they had gotten leave of them, how cruel soever they were, to come into that court, were yet often destroyed by this sedition; for those darts that were thrown by the engines came with that force, that they went over all the buildings, and reached as far as the altar, and the temple itself, and fell upon the priests, and those that were about the sacred offices; insomuch that many persons who came thither with great zeal from the ends of the earth, to offer sacrifices at this celebrated place, which was esteemed holy by all mankind, fell down before their own sacrifices themselves, and sprinkled that altar which was venerable among all men, both Greeks and Barbarians, with their own blood; till the dead bodies of strangers were mingled together with those of their own country, and those of profane persons with those of the priests, and the blood of all sorts of dead carcasses stood in lakes in the holy courts themselves. And now, "O must wretched city, what misery so great as this didst thou suffer from the Romans, when they came to purify thee from thy intestine hatred! ‘For thou couldst be no longer a place fit for God, nor couldst thou long continue in being, after thou hadst been a sepulcher for the bodies of thy own people, and hadst made the holy house itself a burying-place in this civil war of thine. Yet mayst thou again grow better, if perchance thou wilt hereafter appease the anger of that God who is the author of thy destruction."

Josephus - Wars Book 5 -Chap.1 - para. 5

5. They agreed in nothing but this, to kill those that were innocent. The noise also of those that were fighting was incessant, both by day and by night; but the lamentations of those that mourned exceeded the other; nor was there ever any occasion for them to leave off their lamentations, because their calamities came perpetually one upon another, although the deep consternation they were in prevented their outward wailing; but being constrained by their fear to conceal their inward passions, they were inwardly tormented, without daring to open their lips in groans. Nor was any regard paid to those that were still alive, by their relations; nor was there any care taken of burial for those that were dead; the occasion of both which was this, that every one despaired of himself; for those that were not among the seditious had no great desires of any thing, as expecting for certain that they should very soon be destroyed; but for the seditious themselves, they fought against each other, while they trod upon the dead bodies as they lay heaped one upon another, and taking up a mad rage from those dead bodies that were under their feet, became the fiercer thereupon. They, moreover, were still inventing somewhat or other that was pernicious against themselves; and when they had resolved upon any thing, they executed it without mercy, and omitted no method of torment or of barbarity.

It is hard to believe those who God had called by His name had fallen into such horrid conditions and madness; engaging in constant fighting, but not against the Romans, but against their own countrymen. All this while a flood of abominations were being committed within the polluted Temple; this is the historic setting against which all Christians in America should prayerfully consider Josephus’ following words as he desperately pleads with his countrymen.

Josephus - Wars Book 6 -Chap.2 - para. 1

HOW TITUS PERSUADED JOSEPHUS TO EXHORT THE JEWS AGAIN [TO A SURRENDER]

“…I dare venture to promise that the Romans shall still forgive thee. And take notice that I, who make this exhortation to thee, am one of thine own nation; I, who am a Jew, do make this promise to thee. And it will become thee to consider who I am that give thee this counsel, and whence I am derived; for while I am alive I shall never be in such slavery, as to forego my own kindred, or forget the laws of our forefathers. Thou hast indignation at me again, and makest a clamor at me, and reproachest me; indeed I cannot deny but I am worthy of worse treatment than all this amounts to, because, in opposition to fate, I make this kind invitation to thee, and endeavor to force deliverance upon those whom God hath condemned. And who is there that does not know what the writings of the ancient prophets contain in them, - and particularly that oracle which is just now going to be fulfilled upon this miserable city? For they foretold that this city should be then taken when somebody shall begin the slaughter of his own countrymen. And are not both the city and the entire temple now full of the dead bodies of your countrymen? It is God, therefore, it is God himself who is bringing on this fire, to purge that city and temple by means of the Romans, and is going to pluck up this city, which is full of your pollutions."

Here we see the depths of sin into which a once godly nation, even the nation of Israel can fall when its people persistently frustrate God’s grace. For those once noble men were reduced to brute beasts, behaving like savages towards their own countrymen. And yet, all that actually pales away in comparison to what else Josephus recorded. But first, be reminded of what Jesus said to these rebellious and stiff-necked Jews.

Matthew 24:19 - And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Josephus - Wars Book 6 - Chap.3 - para. 3 & 4

ANOTHER DESCRIPTION OF THE TERRIBLE FAMINE THAT WAS IN THE CITY

3. Now of those that perished by famine in the city, the number was prodigious, and the miseries they underwent were unspeakable; for if so much as the shadow of any kind of food did any where appear, a war was commenced presently, and the dearest friends fell a fighting one with another about it, snatching from each other the most miserable supports of life. Nor would men believe that those who were dying had no food, but the robbers would search them when they were expiring, lest any one should have concealed food in their bosoms, and counterfeited dying; nay, these robbers gaped for want, and ran about stumbling and staggering along like mad dogs, and reeling against the doors of the houses like drunken men; they would also, in the great distress they were in, rush into the very same houses two or three times in one and the same day. Moreover, their hunger was so intolerable, that it obliged them to chew every thing, while they gathered such things as the most sordid animals would not touch, and endured to eat them; nor did they at length abstain from girdles and shoes; and the very leather which belonged to their shields they pulled off and gnawed: the very wisps of old hay became food to some; and some gathered up fibres, and sold a very small weight of them for four Attic [drachmae]. But why do I describe the shameless impudence that the famine brought on men in their eating inanimate things, while I am going to relate a matter of fact, the like to which no history relates, either among the Greeks or Barbarians . . .

4. There was a certain woman that dwelt beyond Jordan, her name was Mary; her father was Eleazar, of the village Bethezob, which signifies the house of Hyssop. She was eminent for her family and her wealth, and had fled away to Jerusalem with the rest of the multitude, and was with them besieged therein at this time. The other effects of this woman had been already seized upon, such I mean as she had brought with her out of Perea, and removed to the city. What she had treasured up besides, as also what food she had contrived to save, had been also carried off by the rapacious guards, who came every day running into her house for that purpose. This put the poor woman into a very great passion, and by the frequent reproaches and imprecations she east at these rapacious villains, she had provoked them to anger against her; but none of them, either out of the indignation she had raised against herself, or out of commiseration of her case, would take away her life; and if she found any food, she perceived her labors were for others, and not for herself; and it was now become impossible for her any way to find any more food, while the famine pierced through her very bowels and marrow, when also her passion was fired to a degree beyond the famine itself; nor did she consult with anything but with her passion and the necessity she was in. She then attempted a most unnatural thing; and snatching up her son, who was a child sucking at her breast, she said, "O thou miserable infant! for whom shall I preserve thee in this war, this famine, and this sedition? As to the war with the Romans, if they preserve our lives, we must be slaves. This famine also will destroy us, even before that slavery comes upon us. Yet are these seditious rogues more terrible than both the other. Come on; be thou my food, and be thou a fury to these seditious varlets, and a by-word to the world, which is all that is now wanting to complete the calamities of us Jews." As soon as she had said this, she slew her son, and then roasted him, and eat the one half of him, and kept the other half by her concealed. Upon this the seditious came in presently, and smelling the horrid scent of this food, they threatened her that they would cut her throat immediately if she did not show them what food she had gotten ready. She replied that she had saved a very fine portion of it for them, and withal uncovered what was left of her son. Hereupon they were seized with a horror and amazement of mind, and stood astonished at the sight, when she said to them, "This is mine own son, and what hath been done was mine own doing! Come, eat of this food; for I have eaten of it myself! Do not you pretend to be either more tender than a woman, or more compassionate than a mother; but if you be so scrupulous, and do abominate this my sacrifice, as I have eaten the one half, let the rest be reserved for me also." After which those men went out trembling, being never so much aftrighted at any thing as they were at this, and with some difficulty they left the rest of that meat to the mother. Upon which the whole city was full of this horrid action immediately; and while every body laid this miserable case before their own eyes, they trembled, as if this unheard of action had been done by themselves. So those that were thus distressed by the famine were very desirous to die, and those already dead were esteemed happy, because they had not lived long enough either to hear or to see such miseries.

Even before the Jews entered the Promise Land, God had warned them of these horrors into which sin would take them, but they would not listen.

Deuteronomy 28:53 - And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee: 54 So that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave: 55 So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates. 56 The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter, 57 And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates.

All this happened because they refused to listen to God whose only desire was to do wondrous things for His people. Instead, history records how these abominations that brought the Temple to its full and utter end. These things were foretold by the Angel Gabriel and bear witness to the sure word of prophecy. American and their leaders would do well to heed today that strong admonition that was written in the New Testament before these things came to past and so accurately delivered in judgment against the Jews of those very days.

Hebrews 2:1 - Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. 2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him.

 

[Sonseeahray]

Is the third temple the one that the antichrist will take over. Is that going to start. How long do you think it will take to build.

First of all show us from scripture where John says that their will be a single entity called the "Antichristos."  There is none. Antichristos is a word that is both singular and plural like deer and sheep in English. It's up to the translator how it is used. You cannot do it because it is simply not there. There is no 21st+ century boogeyman known as "Antichrist." Start at the beginning will you - and don't just parrot what others say.

Second, the temple of Ezekiel is a symbolic picture of the New Covenant Church couched in symbols that could be understood by the people to whom it was directly written to - the first century Christians. It already has been built by the suffering of Jesus.

[BlindSeeker]

First of all show us from scripture where John says that their will be a single entity called the "Antichristos."  There is none. Antichristos is a word that is both singular and plural like deer and sheep in English. It's up to the translator how it is used. You cannot do it because it is simply not there. There is no 21st+ century boogeyman known as "Antichrist." Start at the beginning will you - and don't just parrot what others say.

Agreed.

People need to provide a sound biblical reason for why the Apostle John who coined and gave us the biblical word  "Antichristos" under the unction of the Holy Spirit in his 1st and 2nd epistles failed to use it in the Book of Revelation. 

[Sonseeahray]

Ezekiel 43:8 suggests only a wall will separate the holy from the unholy, that the Temple may be built up on Temple Mount beside at least one mosque there. Tuvia Sagiv suggests to the south of the Dome of the Rock and Asher Kaufman to the north of the Dome. I lean towards Kaufman since as can clearly be seen the Temple would line up with the Eastern Gate. I am very rusty on this but I believe it was Josephus who wrote that one could see from the Mount of Olives through the Eastern Gate into the Temple itself when the doors were open. 

 

What they are calling "The Temple Mount" today is in reality the Ancient Fortress Antonia. The most hated place in Jerusalem in Jesus' day.The real temple mount was located south of the Fortress Antonia with a 600 foot courtyard in between. According to Josephus the two structures were connected by a double wide two story roadway (four lanes). The real temple Mount was a tower some 450 feet high on the South East corner which was called "the pinnacle." The Temple and tower it sat upon were so totally destroyed that there was no trace of where it was located after 70AD. This brought to pass the words of Jesus who said that there would not remain one stone upon another. There was nothing left after the Romans in pursuit of the hundreds of tons of gold that had melted during the fire and flowed between the cracks of the stones all the way to the bottom of the tower upon which it sat. If the Jews hadn't advanced and propagandized the Fortress Antonia as the "Temple Mount" for political reasons, they could start building the new Temple tomorrow as there is little in the way to prevent it when you measure 600-1200 feet to the south of the Antonia as it is today. This is just the forth time in history where God has frustrated the Jews efforts to rebuild the Temple. GOD IS NOT GOING TO LEAD THE JEWS BACK TO THE OBSOLETE OLD COVENANT but rather he is leading them to the foot of the cross.

[JohnD]

Ezekiel 43:8 suggests only a wall will separate the holy from the unholy, that the Temple may be built up on Temple Mount beside at least one mosque there. Tuvia Sagiv suggests to the south of the Dome of the Rock and Asher Kaufman to the north of the Dome. I lean towards Kaufman since as can clearly be seen the Temple would line up with the Eastern Gate. I am very rusty on this but I believe it was Josephus who wrote that one could see from the Mount of Olives through the Eastern Gate into the Temple itself when the doors were open. 

 

What they are calling "The Temple Mount" today is in reality the Ancient Fortress Antonia. The most hated place in Jerusalem in Jesus' day.The real temple mount was located south of the Fortress Antonia with a 600 foot courtyard in between. According to Josephus the two structures were connected by a double wide two story roadway (four lanes). The real temple Mount was a tower some 450 feet high on the South East corner which was called "the pinnacle." The Temple and tower it sat upon were so totally destroyed that there was no trace of where it was located after 70AD. This brought to pass the words of Jesus who said that there would not remain one stone upon another. There was nothing left after the Romans in pursuit of the hundreds of tons of gold that had melted during the fire and flowed between the cracks of the stones all the way to the bottom of the tower upon which it sat. If the Jews hadn't advanced and propagandized the Fortress Antonia as the "Temple Mount" for political reasons, they could start building the new Temple tomorrow as there is little in the way to prevent it when you measure 600-1200 feet to the south of the Antonia as it is today. This is just the forth time in history where God has frustrated the Jews efforts to rebuild the Temple. GOD IS NOT GOING TO LEAD THE JEWS BACK TO THE OBSOLETE OLD COVENANT but rather he is leading them to the foot of the cross.

 

[JohnD]

Doesn't fit the foundation structures, the topography, the placement of the gates... this is what you interpret from Josephus:

 

This goes well south of the threshing floor of Araunah / Ornan the Jebusite and into the city of David / Ophel hill.