JohnD Posted July 29, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 904 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,642 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,830 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2015 The usual focus of discussion is on the two witnesses of Revelation 11, but consider the two witnesses of Christ at various times... Including Moses and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration the two on crosses on either side of the Lord the two pillars at the door to the tabernacle (Jesus said "I AM the door...") And also what John the water Baptist said: I indeed baptize you with water, but one greater than I comes whose shoes I am unworthy to latch, he will baptize with the Holy Ghost (salvation / new covenant) and with fire (judgement / old covenant). The text in Revelation 11:4 lends itself to the prophetic idioms of "two olive trees" and "two candlesticks" to describe them their mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlelambseativy Posted July 29, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 230 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,941 Content Per Day: 0.95 Reputation: 2,003 Days Won: 14 Joined: 02/08/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2015 I believe that it will be Enoch and Elijah..neither died but we're taken from the earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bible2 Posted July 30, 2015 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 642 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 405 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/08/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted July 30, 2015 JohnD said in post 1: The usual focus of discussion is on the two witnesses of Revelation 11, but consider the two witnesses of Christ at various times... Including • Moses and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration . . . Note that these can be the same two. For in the never-fulfilled Revelation 11:3-12, the 2 witnesses could be literally Moses and Elijah. For the 2 men seen "standing before the God of the earth" (Revelation 11:4) at the transfiguration were Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3). And in Revelation 11:4, the 2 "olive trees" refer back to the 2 men who were already standing by the Lord by the time of the prophet Zechariah (Zechariah 4:11,14), which was subsequent to the times of Moses and Elijah. Moses and Elijah could come down from heaven in their mortal bodies at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, just as they came down at the transfiguration. Also, the plagues which the 2 witnesses will cause (Revelation 11:6,5) will match plagues which Moses and Elijah caused in Old Testament times (James 5:17, Exodus 7:20; 2 Kings 1:10-14). Elijah never died, but was taken physically into heaven (2 Kings 2:11b). And Michael the archangel retrieved Moses' dead body from Satan (Jude 1:9). Michael could have then taken Moses' recently-dead body into heaven, where it could have been resuscitated by God back to mortal life, like, for example, how Lazarus' recently-dead body was resuscitated by God back to mortal life (John 12:1). This would explain how both Moses and Elijah could appear alive at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3). The 2 witnesses will prophesy and bring plagues on the world during the future, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 11:2b,3,6) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 12:6,14), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. That is why the Antichrist's reign will legally end (Revelation 11:15) right after the time of the 2 witnesses on the earth will end (Revelation 11:12-15). The plagues which they will bring (Revelation 11:6) will be part of the tribulation's 2nd woe/6th trumpet (Revelation 11:14, Revelation 9:12-13). They will be taken up to heaven before the tribulation's 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:12,15). They may not be witnesses in the sense of evangelizing the world (Acts 1:8). For the original Greek word (martus: G3144) translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can also refer to those who witness against people and bring punishment against them (Acts 7:58). The reason that there will be 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3) who will bring plagues to torment the unrepentant world (Revelation 11:6,10b) would be because 2 witnesses are required to bring judgment against people (1 Timothy 5:19). At the same time, the 2 "witnesses" could be called that because both of them will be martyred (Revelation 11:7-9). For the same original Greek word translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can refer to "martyrs" (Revelation 17:6). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted July 30, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.13 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 30, 2015 JohnD said in post 1: The usual focus of discussion is on the two witnesses of Revelation 11, but consider the two witnesses of Christ at various times... Including • Moses and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration . . . Note that these can be the same two. For in the never-fulfilled Revelation 11:3-12, the 2 witnesses could be literally Moses and Elijah. For the 2 men seen "standing before the God of the earth" (Revelation 11:4) at the transfiguration were Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3). And in Revelation 11:4, the 2 "olive trees" refer back to the 2 men who were already standing by the Lord by the time of the prophet Zechariah (Zechariah 4:11,14), which was subsequent to the times of Moses and Elijah. Moses and Elijah could come down from heaven in their mortal bodies at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, just as they came down at the transfiguration. Also, the plagues which the 2 witnesses will cause (Revelation 11:6,5) will match plagues which Moses and Elijah caused in Old Testament times (James 5:17, Exodus 7:20; 2 Kings 1:10-14). Elijah never died, but was taken physically into heaven (2 Kings 2:11b). And Michael the archangel retrieved Moses' dead body from Satan (Jude 1:9). Michael could have then taken Moses' recently-dead body into heaven, where it could have been resuscitated by God back to mortal life, like, for example, how Lazarus' recently-dead body was resuscitated by God back to mortal life (John 12:1). This would explain how both Moses and Elijah could appear alive at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3). The 2 witnesses will prophesy and bring plagues on the world during the future, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 11:2b,3,6) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 12:6,14), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. That is why the Antichrist's reign will legally end (Revelation 11:15) right after the time of the 2 witnesses on the earth will end (Revelation 11:12-15). The plagues which they will bring (Revelation 11:6) will be part of the tribulation's 2nd woe/6th trumpet (Revelation 11:14, Revelation 9:12-13). They will be taken up to heaven before the tribulation's 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:12,15). They may not be witnesses in the sense of evangelizing the world (Acts 1:8). For the original Greek word (martus: G3144) translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can also refer to those who witness against people and bring punishment against them (Acts 7:58). The reason that there will be 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3) who will bring plagues to torment the unrepentant world (Revelation 11:6,10b) would be because 2 witnesses are required to bring judgment against people (1 Timothy 5:19). At the same time, the 2 "witnesses" could be called that because both of them will be martyred (Revelation 11:7-9). For the same original Greek word translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can refer to "martyrs" (Revelation 17:6). I'm inclined to agree with Moses and Elijah for the same reasons. They also represent the law and the prophets. Trying to argue that the two witnesses will be Elijah and Enoch because they never died doesn't hold water. God can raise people from the dead like he did the saints at Christ's resurrection. The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. Matthew 27:52-53 It's reasonable to assume that these saints were caught up into heaven as well at some point. Otherwise, what's the point of raising them from the dead? We know they weren't raised immortal because that happens at Christ's coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua-777 Posted July 30, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 410 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 3,102 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 522 Days Won: 6 Joined: 10/19/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/07/1984 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Two Witnesses Law and the Prophets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted July 30, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.36 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 30, 2015 I believe that it will be Enoch and Elijah..neither died but we're taken from the earth. It's hard to understand why Enoch would enter into the picture. But it is significant to note that Moses (representing the Law) and Elijah (representing the Prophets) appeared at the Mount of Transfiguration. For all we know, they may even have discussed the matter of appearing on the earth before the Day of The Lord (Mal 4:5,6). The case for Moses and Elijah is very strong, since not only are both these witnesses specifially called "prophets" (Rev 11:10) but their miracles (REv 11:6) reflect those of Moses and Elijah. Also Elijah did bring down fire from Heaven to destroy God's enemies, and that too will happen (Rev 11:5). POWER OVER WATERS TO TURN THEM TO BLOOD -- Moses POWER TO SMITE THE EARTH WITH ALL PLAGUES -- Moses POWER TO SHUT HEAVEN -- Elijah (and for 3 1/2 years) They are metaphorically called "olive trees" and "candlesticks" (lampstands or menorahs) because olive oil is symbolic of the Holy Spirit, and was used in the lampstands (representing the light of God's Word) of the Tabernacle and Temple. These men will be continuously filled with the Holy Spirit, and the evidence of this filling will be that they will proclaim God's truth boldly (Acts 4:13,31,33) while denouncing the lies of Satan and the Antichrist. As a result, they both will be killed, resurrected, and taken up to Heaven after their work on earth is done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watching for Jesus Posted July 30, 2015 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 155 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 133 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 30, 2015 I believe that it will be Enoch and Elijah..neither died but we're taken from the earth. I agree with you Littlelamb. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SINNERSAVED Posted July 31, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 6 Topic Count: 150 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 2,195 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 2,409 Days Won: 14 Joined: 07/30/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted July 31, 2015 This is a hard one for I have the same idea of the two on the mount of transfiguration, that was my thought , but is it really two physical men or a symbolic vision of the law of moses and the spirit of truth grace, for at once I followed everyone but we may be looking for something that is a medifore, I am open to help on this ,but I believe that it is not what we really all are made to believe? and needs more research.or has this already been carried out prior to our generation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retrobyter Posted July 31, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 9 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6,571 Content Per Day: 1.07 Reputation: 2,439 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/28/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/28/1957 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Shalom, Joshua-777. Two Witnesses Law and the Prophets What about the “Ketuviym?” The “Writings?” The reason why the Jews call the Old Testament the TANAKH is because it is an acronym for “Torah Navi`iym Ketuviym.” (Tav-Nun-Kaf or T-N-K, and the “Kaf” at the end of a word is always the Khaf-Sofit or Kh sound, like the hard, guttural Ch in German as in “reich.”) The “Torah” is what Christians have called the “Law” for generations; the “Navi’iym" are the “Prophets.” So where are the “Ketuviym?” Would they be a “witness,” too? No, these two witnesses are INDIVIDUALS, not sections of the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bible2 Posted July 31, 2015 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 642 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 405 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/08/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted July 31, 2015 Retrobyter said in post 9: No, these two witnesses are INDIVIDUALS, not sections of the Bible. That's right. For they are simply 2 individual prophets who will eventually be martyred, and their 2 dead bodies will lie unburied in a street in Jerusalem for 3.5 literal days (Revelation 11:8-12). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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