Who or what is the two witnesses of god in the end times?

[mevosper]

Is it easy to believe these witnesses are 2 individuals because of the miracles they perform: turning water to blood (Moses), and withholding rain from heaven (Elijah)? From what I know of the OT, there was never an individual that spewed fire from his mouth like a fire-breathing dragon.

 

Neither are these two witnesses two individuals representing the law and the prophets. For the law and the prophets were until John. What makes it so difficult to believe these two witnesses are the law and the prophets? 

Edited August 13, 2015 by mevosper

[Last Daze]

Is it easy to believe these witnesses are 2 individuals because of the miracles they perform: turning water to blood (Moses), and withholding rain from heaven (Elijah)? From what I know of the OT, there was never an individual that spewed fire from his mouth like a fire-breathing dragon.

 

Neither are these two witnesses two individuals representing the law and the prophets. For the law and the prophets were until John. What makes it so difficult to believe these two witnesses are the law and the prophets? 

 

Because they die, and are raised from the dead, and ascend into heaven.  They have bodies, and so on, and so forth.

[mevosper]

Laws can die. Laws can also be raised from the dead. Congress can be considered a body. As well, an email message has a body. These are just examples of different word usages.

The descriptive text in Revelation describing the two witnesses can apply to more than human beings. Being personified does not automatically make them people. I've shown bible verses in which these descriptions are applicable to the law and the prophets.

   

[Last Daze]

Laws can die. Laws can also be raised from the dead. Congress can be considered a body. As well, an email message has a body. These are just examples of different word usages.

The descriptive text in Revelation describing the two witnesses can apply to more than human beings. Being personified does not automatically make them people. I've shown bible verses in which these descriptions are applicable to the law and the prophets.

   

I'll go with what the entirety of the description of the two witnesses indicates, that they are two physical people.  Your analogy may work to a point but it doesn't fit the whole, in my estimation.

[Serving]

Is it easy to believe these witnesses are 2 individuals because of the miracles they perform: turning water to blood (Moses), and withholding rain from heaven (Elijah)? From what I know of the OT, there was never an individual that spewed fire from his mouth like a fire-breathing dragon.

 

Neither are these two witnesses two individuals representing the law and the prophets. For the law and the prophets were until John. What makes it so difficult to believe these two witnesses are the law and the prophets?

Hi Mevosper,

The fire that comes from their mouths is actually metaphor for their word, or better said, that word which is within them .. like the sword that is in the Lords mouth .. that isn't a real sword, it is metaphor for the power of His word .. same concept for the two witnesses .. it is the word that is in them that is like fire of which when commanded by them, can and will kill indeed .. but don't think of the fire as actual flames bursting forth .. it s the word that is within them bursting forth.

Thanks bro. 

[mevosper]

Serving - exactly! Rereading my post I didn't make that clear. I've been taking some time in this area to understand better. Here are my thoughts currently as I grow. 

Who are the witnesses? Without stealing the thunder of the discussion, the lightning is that these two witnesses are not individual human beings. The witnesses are: “the law” and “the prophets”. I can hear the question now: “How in all of God’s creation, can you come to that conclusion?” Honestly, not without the spirit of God. But let him lead you in the direction that He lead me.

 

Let’s start with Revelation 11:1

 

Firstly, the law.

Rev 11:1 KJV

And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

 

What is being measured? The Temple

Who was the temple given to? The Jews

Who is being measured? Only those that can minister unto the temple.

 

Whenever there is a measuring of temple or people in the word of God, it needs to be understood that something is being measured, or judged, against a standard. When a carpenter measures a piece of wood, he takes out his ruler, his standard of measurement, and determines the exact length in which to cut. His rule, or his article of judgement or “law”, is used to determine the rightful length of the piece of wood. If the “law” determines the wood to be too long, the carpenter cuts off the extra. The wood did not meet the standard. If it is too short, he casts it aside for another piece of wood.  

 

The measuring of the temple of God, the altar (the place of sacrifices), and them that worship therein pertains to the Israelites. The articles of judgement, or law was given to them. The law enumerated the ministering of the temple and the ministering to God. In a sense, they were given the keys to the knowledge and wisdom of God. This same law was used to judge those that were required to follow the law, therefore they would be judged by the law. The idea of measuring something in the bible refers to the act of grading or judging against a known law or rule. God’s law, given to the Israelites and their ministering of the temple, is the reed. (Matt 7:2).

 

Romans 3:20-21:

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

 

Interesting note: the specificity of the measurements of Ezekiel’s temple highlights the perfectness of Christ. Specifically Ezekiel’s temple is representative of Christ (Ezekiel 40-48).  But this is something for another discussion.  

 

Rev 11:2 KJV

But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

 

Gentiles were not allowed in the temple. They, Gentiles, were not held to the standards of the law. The law was not given to the Gentiles and therefore they are not measured against that reed.

 

...And now to include the prophets.

Rev 11:3 KJV

And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

 

Rom 3:21 KJV - But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

 

The two witnesses are the law and the prophets which were until John the Baptist

Their prophecy shall last 1260 days (years). From the time of Moses until John?

 

1446 .B.C - http://www.bibleanswers.info/484

31 - 32 AD

Not sure what is meant by the 1260 days.

 

Rev 11:4 KJV

These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

 

Now here is an interesting paradox. Those not looking for the witnesses to be represented by the law and the prophets, will take the olive trees and candlesticks in verse 4 and try to relate them to people.  

 

Rev 11:5 KJV

And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

 

Many may think that these witnesses will be walking flamethrowers, spewing out fire from their mouths at anyone that would desire to hurt them. If, however, this verse is aligned with what Christ taught, it will become clear that this is not going to happen. Luke 9 gives an example of Christ rebuking his disciples for threatening fire from heaven and reminds them of his mission.

 

...and sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Eli´jah did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village. (Luke 9:52-56)

 

An argument can be made that Christ was only being rejected. Nothing worse. And the rejection certainly doesn’t seem worth the judgement of fire from heaven. The penalty does not fit the crime. However, Christ responded in a specific way. He does not mince words, and his sayings are not benign. “Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of”. The judgment the disciples were suggesting was a physical, carnal response. A response to being rejected. They seemed to be looking for retribution for being shunned.  But God’s grace is through Christ. The need/goal/desire of God is to save mankind, not spew fire from a human’s mouth at another.

 

Rev 11:6 KJV

These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

 

Here we have the very first inclination that it may be two distinct human individuals representing the witnesses. This verse seems to tie in the OT prophets of Elijah and Moses. God commanded Elijah to tell King Ahab that the heavens would not drop any rain (1 King 17). In Exodus 7, God commands that Aaron place his rod in the river to turn the water to blood (Ex 7:20).

 

Looking deeper, though, there are some treasures that can be uncovered in these verses. The curses found within Deu 28:15-68 are very descriptive and explicit concerning not following the law of God.

Shutting of the rain: One of the curses, found in verse 23, indicates that the heavens “over thy head shall be brass”, meaning that rain will not fall to water the plants. Compare this to Rev 11:6: “...that it rain not in the days of their prophecy…”. What is it that causes the heavens over their heads to withhold their rain? Verse 15 gives the answer: “...if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD…”.

Turn water to blood:

These commands were given before the days of prophets or laws, it seems. Agreed, but then isn’t Moses called a prophet?

Deu 34:10 KJV - [10] And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,

Was he not a vessel at the time of the Nile turning into blood?

 

 

[Sister]

Mevosper

Firstly, the law.

Rev 11:1 KJV

And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

 

What is being measured? The Temple

Who was the temple given to? The Jews

Who is being measured? Only those that can minister unto the temple.

There is no Temple.  It was destroyed in 70AD.

The temple of God is "the Kingdom of God."  Those who are measured at the altar are "the true worshipers" 

It's the true worshipers who are being measured, not the Jews, but those who follow the Lamb.  Christians.

 

Revelation 11:2   But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months

Whoever is in the court area, outside the temple are not the real worshipers of God.  This will be all the lip servers and lukewarmers,  ...these ones will be trodden on by the gentiles and will not be measured  ...AND...the holy city shall they tread underfoot 3 1/2 yrs.  The holy city is Jerusalem yes, but will be holy in the future, and the Christians who did not make it to the altar (did not sacrifice) will be trodden on also.  It's a dual prophecy. A hidden clue inside this verse. The holy city is Zion, the city of Truth spiritually speaking now.  The truth will be trodden on. Anyone who is left in the court will be trodden on, but if found standing at the altar the truth cannot be touched.  They will be spared, this special group measured.  It's only a minority.

Daniel 7:25   And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
 

The lip servers who claim they are of this city are not judged worthy to be at the altar, therefore have to go through tribulation.  They will be sifted out.  The ones measured will be put in the ark.

 

 

[mevosper]

Sister - John is seeing this in a vision. Any talk or idea of an actual physical temple that stood and/or may stand should be circumspect. John's vision is not about a physical building. What is being represented by the temple is the law that was given to the Jews through Moses. There is clarity here that those within the temple area are Jews. This, because in the very next verse we are told "Gentiles" are "without the temple" (meaning, outside the temple area).

"Measure it not" means they (Gentiles) are not "under" the law. Paul talks about this in Romans, Corinthians, and Galatians. 

This vision is also not about "the kingdom of God" and those saved under the work of Christ on the cross. It talks of those that are allowed in the temple area (Jews) and those that are not allowed in the temple area (Gentiles). This vision, in verses 1 & 2, creates a distinction between Jews under the law, and Gentiles without the law. 

My questions: "What is being measured?", "Who is the temple given to?", and "Who is being measured?" are to properly clarify the subjects of these 2 verses. 

 

It seems as if you are also trying to relate this to something other than a physical building - which says to me you see the symbolism. If there is going to be symbolism, we need to be sure that we see the exact symbolism that is being called for. 

• "measure the temple" - charge those that have been given the knowledge of God to uphold that duty with all due diligence. Check to be sure they are acting and responding accordingly. 
• "and the altar" - are they sacrificing properly? are they upholding the laws given to them by God? Are they spilling innocent blood, murdering, and being deceitful with these duties. 

[mevosper]

To hear that the witnesses are "the law and the prophets" does not sound as dramatic as some thoughts about the witnesses being 2 individuals. There is excitement in the idea that two people will be the judges of God turning water to blood,; holding back the rain; or spewing fire from their mouths. Some may think "Finally, someone who can show real judgment against sinners, murderers, and all those people who refused God. Put 'em up against a wall and let the power of God burn them to hell..." 

This is certainly not the Spirit of God. Christ taught his disciples a spirit of mercy and grace. 

However, in our spiritual growth, it is even more exciting when the Spirit of God reveals these hidden truths to us. For example: to learn that the witnesses are not 2 specific individual human beings, but that they are more, is exciting and awesome.  We learn through the growth of the Spirit within us what these nuggets of truth are. And the deepness, freshness, and life of these truths are what makes God AWESOME! 

Edited August 20, 2015 by mevosper

[Your closest friendnt]

Enoch and Elijah.God took them to heaven without dying.This would prepare them for a special purpose.

 

 

I am going to second the above. 

Will they come at the age they were taken, would they have documents of birth right to be allow to remain in that country, and not deported. Did I say deported where? Would they be able to prove their mother or father were citizens of the host country? What would their names be? The languish they speak, licence to drive, income, maybe the get a wife,