Who or what is the two witnesses of god in the end times?

[Sister]

 

Sister - John is seeing this in a vision. Any talk or idea of an actual physical temple that stood and/or may stand should be circumspect. John's vision is not about a physical building.

Exactly!  There is no physical temple being measured which is what I stated.

 

What is being represented by the temple is the law that was given to the Jews through Moses.

Mevosper, that is how you are seeing it but it doesn't mean it is so, please just think on this for a moment;

The law was done away with at the resurrection.  To be "spiritually" standing at the altar in the temple (of God) is to be in the "highest" place of worship.  The "altar" symbolises where the "sacrifices" are made to God.  Sacrifices concerning "the Law" is no longer required, nor accepted, because God provided a different way now,

 Hebrews 10:4   For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins

 Hebrews 10:8   Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

 Hebrews 10:11   And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
 

.... a different type of sacrifice is required now

 1 Peter 2:5   Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

, and that is our sacrifices of sin (abstaining from sin).  This can only be accomplished through the Lamb of God.  To be standing at the altar, means true worship.  Without the Lamb, and without repentance there is no true worship.  There is no other way to God now, so this cannot represent the Jews as the holiest of hollies, simply because they did not accept Christ. 

We are speaking of the last days here, and those standing at the altar in the temple are measured just before the three and a half years begin.  Measured just before the two prophets start their witnessing in Israel.

...and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

 

There is clarity here that those within the temple area are Jews. This, because in the very next verse we are told "Gentiles" are "without the temple" (meaning, outside the temple area).

It clearly does not say they are Jews, but you are picturing Jews because of the word "Gentiles" used;

Revelation 11:2   But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months

Like I said, it's a dual prophecy.  We know that Jerusalem (even the whole of Israel) will be occupied by the Gentiles for 3 1/2 years.  When the False prophet and his beast (10 kings) come in and rule from there.  This is the obvious thing we see in this verse from knowing the scriptures, but there is a little message in there also;

The "court" is part of the temple grounds.  When we walk through "the gates" we are entering the courts, it's now holy ground. It's where they all congregate, just outside the temple.

Eg;

 Psalms 100:4   Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name.

Psalms 65:4   Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

So to be in the courts represents being associated with God, congregating, ....however, Jesus said;

Acts 20:29   For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

The courts have been polluted.  All worshipers must be sifted.  Those in the the court(s) have not offered their sacrifices (of sin) at the altar, but just stayed in the gates (my font is changing?)

Matthew 8:12   But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 Matthew 13:41   The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

 Matthew 13:43   Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

So I am doing my best to show you here, that when taken into account what Christ said he will do, ..will be fulfilled, ...therefore we have those at the altar measured (true worshipers) and those outside the temple (within the gates/court) not measured and given over into the hands of the gentiles (those in power) to do whatever they want with them, and this is the persecutions to come because their sacrifices were not made/or accepted.  Now they have to prove themselves and be purified with fire, and go through the full storm.

To say the Jews are the ones at the Altar being measured not being given into the hands of the gentiles goes against scripture, because we know that even the remnants of Israel chosen will go through war and oppression and suffer loss at the hands of the gentiles. Christ when he returns will "rescue" them from the oppressor, and they will come to him with tears and supplications because of what they have been through.  They will come to him broken, and he will heal them.

I could go further into this as to who these at the altar specifically are,  but this is enough for now, I await your answer.

[Sister]

Mevosper

It's really hard to format my post because it's not doing what I want it to do.  I've lost your quote at the top somewhere, sorry. 

[Serving]

Hi Mevosper,

Firstly, the law.

Rev 11:1 KJV

And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

 

What is being measured? The Temple

Who was the temple given to? The Jews

Who is being measured? Only those that can minister unto the temple.

 

Whenever there is a measuring of temple or people in the word of God, it needs to be understood that something is being measured, or judged, against a standard. When a carpenter measures a piece of wood, he takes out his ruler, his standard of measurement, and determines the exact length in which to cut. His rule, or his article of judgement or “law”, is used to determine the rightful length of the piece of wood. If the “law” determines the wood to be too long, the carpenter cuts off the extra. The wood did not meet the standard. If it is too short, he casts it aside for another piece of wood.

 

The measuring of the temple of God, the altar (the place of sacrifices), and them that worship therein pertains to the Israelites. The articles of judgement, or law was given to them. The law enumerated the ministering of the temple and the ministering to God. In a sense, they were given the keys to the knowledge and wisdom of God. This same law was used to judge those that were required to follow the law, therefore they would be judged by the law. The idea of measuring something in the bible refers to the act of grading or judging against a known law or rule. God’s law, given to the Israelites and their ministering of the temple, is the reed. (Matt 7:2).

 

Romans 3:20-21:

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Do you recall what happened at the moment Jesus died on the cross brother?

The Temple was rent in two & from that time forward, no more sacrifices or worship from that Temple of the Old Covenant (or ANY Temple of the Old Law), be it at the altar etc, was to be henceforth accepted or acknowledged.  (measured)

Meaning that those that reject the Lord and cling to Moses, that these will not be measured since God broke that Covenant He had made with all the people of Israel (Zechariah chpt 11) on that very day of crucifixion .. that covenant is now desolate (Daniel chpt 9), and will forever remain so .. only in Christ's covenant is there life, only His Temple that He Himself is building will be measured :

Zechariah 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:

The Temple being measured in Revelations is Christ's Temple He has been "building" since ascension.

Therefore it is impossible that they of the old covenant are being represented here since Revelations was not only written after crucifixion, the OT Temple itself being rent as the sign of that annulment that very day, but that any whosoever clings to that old covenant thereafter crucifixion is become termed (spiritually) desolate & forsaken, because all those that do thereafter, are obviously of those who reject The Lord of Life and cling to Moses as it were.

God does not measure the spiritually desolate here, just like John was told not to measure those outside the revelations Temple, God only measures those who are of this very Temple Christ Himself is "building".

Note : Those in the outer court are still on "Temple grounds", that is, they think themselves Christian .. but are not considered of that Temple by Christ.

This to me, is an unbridgeable chasm that can not be crossed.

The Temple can only be Christ's Temple He is building that is being measured.

Regards.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2015 by Serving

[mevosper]

Serving - your definition of "measure" is incorrect, and it becomes a crumbly foundation.  

Here is the correct definition used in Rev 11:1. http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G3354&t=KJV

[FreeinChrist]

Serving - exactly! Rereading my post I didn't make that clear. I've been taking some time in this area to understand better. Here are my thoughts currently as I grow. 

Who are the witnesses? Without stealing the thunder of the discussion, the lightning is that these two witnesses are not individual human beings. The witnesses are: “the law” and “the prophets”. I can hear the question now: “How in all of God’s creation, can you come to that conclusion?” Honestly, not without the spirit of God. But let him lead you in the direction that He lead me.

 

Let’s start with Revelation 11:1

 

Firstly, the law.

Rev 11:1 KJV

And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

 

What is being measured? The Temple

Who was the temple given to? The Jews

Who is being measured? Only those that can minister unto the temple.

 

Whenever there is a measuring of temple or people in the word of God, it needs to be understood that something is being measured, or judged, against a standard. When a carpenter measures a piece of wood, he takes out his ruler, his standard of measurement, and determines the exact length in which to cut. His rule, or his article of judgement or “law”, is used to determine the rightful length of the piece of wood. If the “law” determines the wood to be too long, the carpenter cuts off the extra. The wood did not meet the standard. If it is too short, he casts it aside for another piece of wood.  

 

The measuring of the temple of God, the altar (the place of sacrifices), and them that worship therein pertains to the Israelites. The articles of judgement, or law was given to them. The law enumerated the ministering of the temple and the ministering to God. In a sense, they were given the keys to the knowledge and wisdom of God. This same law was used to judge those that were required to follow the law, therefore they would be judged by the law. The idea of measuring something in the bible refers to the act of grading or judging against a known law or rule. God’s law, given to the Israelites and their ministering of the temple, is the reed. (Matt 7:2).

 

Romans 3:20-21:

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

 

Interesting note: the specificity of the measurements of Ezekiel’s temple highlights the perfectness of Christ. Specifically Ezekiel’s temple is representative of Christ (Ezekiel 40-48).  But this is something for another discussion.  

 

Rev 11:2 KJV

But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

 

Gentiles were not allowed in the temple. They, Gentiles, were not held to the standards of the law. The law was not given to the Gentiles and therefore they are not measured against that reed.

 

...And now to include the prophets.

Rev 11:3 KJV

And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

 

Rom 3:21 KJV - But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

 

The two witnesses are the law and the prophets which were until John the Baptist

Their prophecy shall last 1260 days (years). From the time of Moses until John?

 

1446 .B.C - http://www.bibleanswers.info/484

31 - 32 AD

Not sure what is meant by the 1260 days.

 

Rev 11:4 KJV

These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

 

Now here is an interesting paradox. Those not looking for the witnesses to be represented by the law and the prophets, will take the olive trees and candlesticks in verse 4 and try to relate them to people.  

 

Rev 11:5 KJV

And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

 

Many may think that these witnesses will be walking flamethrowers, spewing out fire from their mouths at anyone that would desire to hurt them. If, however, this verse is aligned with what Christ taught, it will become clear that this is not going to happen. Luke 9 gives an example of Christ rebuking his disciples for threatening fire from heaven and reminds them of his mission.

 

...and sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Eli´jah did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village. (Luke 9:52-56)

 

An argument can be made that Christ was only being rejected. Nothing worse. And the rejection certainly doesn’t seem worth the judgement of fire from heaven. The penalty does not fit the crime. However, Christ responded in a specific way. He does not mince words, and his sayings are not benign. “Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of”. The judgment the disciples were suggesting was a physical, carnal response. A response to being rejected. They seemed to be looking for retribution for being shunned.  But God’s grace is through Christ. The need/goal/desire of God is to save mankind, not spew fire from a human’s mouth at another.

 

Rev 11:6 KJV

These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

 

Here we have the very first inclination that it may be two distinct human individuals representing the witnesses. This verse seems to tie in the OT prophets of Elijah and Moses. God commanded Elijah to tell King Ahab that the heavens would not drop any rain (1 King 17). In Exodus 7, God commands that Aaron place his rod in the river to turn the water to blood (Ex 7:20).

 

Looking deeper, though, there are some treasures that can be uncovered in these verses. The curses found within Deu 28:15-68 are very descriptive and explicit concerning not following the law of God.

Shutting of the rain: One of the curses, found in verse 23, indicates that the heavens “over thy head shall be brass”, meaning that rain will not fall to water the plants. Compare this to Rev 11:6: “...that it rain not in the days of their prophecy…”. What is it that causes the heavens over their heads to withhold their rain? Verse 15 gives the answer: “...if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD…”.

Turn water to blood:

These commands were given before the days of prophets or laws, it seems. Agreed, but then isn’t Moses called a prophet?

Deu 34:10 KJV - [10] And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,

Was he not a vessel at the time of the Nile turning into blood?

 

 

I really enjoyed reading this and your first post on this subject, Mevosper.  I think you are spot on.

Can't wait to heard about how Ezekiel's Temple representatives Christ.

[Guest shiloh357]

I know Brothers and Sisters that you have seen this common post before but I am new and it is tough to go back into history , so can some one please tell me who the two witnesses of god is or what the two witnesses stand for if it be symbolic, for I have heard so many different answers and I know this is the place to post this , so hear is what I was told in the pass, moses and elijah, enoch and moses, it is the old testament and the new , it is the church, it is the law and grace, I know it tells of two possible prophets of old , but they are over come killed in the street and then raised on the third day and so I have heard all types of things on this, sorry about the spelling forgive me, but I hope its clear to read , and if they do show up is it during tribulation or when gods wrath is being poured out, trying to get the scene and the timing of these two , and how the 144,000 virgin males are in the time of this end mentioned in revelation, thank you I know its a mouth full but what do you say I am open for scriptural teaching, and any help will be appreciated thank you

The Bible doesn't tell us who the two witnesses are.    Any attempt to identify them is pure conjecture and nothing more.   If God wanted us to know, he would have told us.  They will be known when God reveals them during the Tribulation.

[Serving]

Mesover,

Thanks for the link but I already understand what measure means".

Rev 11:1 KJV

And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

 

What is being measured? The Temple

Who was the temple given to? The Jews

Who is being measured? Only those that can minister unto the temple.

 

Whenever there is a measuring of temple or people in the word of God, it needs to be understood that something is being measured, or judged, against a standard. When a carpenter measures a piece of wood, he takes out his ruler, his standard of measurement, and determines the exact length in which to cut. His rule, or his article of judgement or “law”, is used to determine the rightful length of the piece of wood. If the “law” determines the wood to be too long, the carpenter cuts off the extra. The wood did not meet the standard. If it is too short, he casts it aside for another piece of wood.

 

The measuring of the temple of God, the altar (the place of sacrifices), and them that worship therein pertains to the Israelites. The articles of judgement, or law was given to them. The law enumerated the ministering of the temple and the ministering to God. In a sense, they were given the keys to the knowledge and wisdom of God. This same law was used to judge those that were required to follow the law, therefore they would be judged by the law. The idea of measuring something in the bible refers to the act of grading or judging against a known law or rule. God’s law, given to the Israelites and their ministering of the temple, is the reed. (Matt 7:2).

I suggest reading Hebrews (as just one example) a couple of times, for it would disagree with this interpretation too.

Again, God ended that Old Covenant and instated a New Covenant for His people to abide in, you do realise this right?

God is not interested in protecting those who have rejected His Son and cling to the Old Law instead .. to suggest God is going to protect this "Temple" and those following it's laws goes against the whole reason WHY Christ died on the cross, for the Testament did not come into affect until the Testator died.

So this interpretation you are promoting is actually belittling Christ's sacrifice by suggesting God will still protect any who keep the Old Law, meaning those actively  rejecting Christ through the very act of the covenant / worship they are keeping and adhering to, and that He will measure (accept) these same ones in their rejection of His Son and give divine protection to said Christ deniers when Jacob's trouble visits them !! (and yes I already know that Jacob will be saved out of it but we are speaking of the "Temple" here .. when the attack is taking place and not what happens at the end (and WHY) .. okay)

Look, God Himself dissolved that covenant and instated His New Covenant for to be saved by .. here without realising, you are promoting another door by which one group can enter by .. but the only door is through Christ's door, you are promoting another door mevosper and don't even realise it.

Sorry but you are wrong.

You are also wrong to suggest that my usage of "measure" is incorrect too .. obviously for worshippers to be measured and protected, then by default, they are accepted .. if they were not protected, then they would not be accepted nor measured now would they !!  Rebutting me by giving the dictionary meaning of "to measure" is, well, you know .. REALLY ??

Maybe think on this a little first :

Isaiah 1:

10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

Now if you keep on reading into the following chapters you will find out WHAT covenant God will acknowledge / accept (measure) at the set time when THAT covenant comes into the world .. and trust me, it is not the Old Law nor those practicing it in denial of Christ. (and yes, yes, I know that IF they got their act together back then whilst still under that Old covenant they wouldn't have gotten punished etc etc, but I'm not speaking about that covena .. keep reading and you will see what He was really leading towards by those declarations He kept making in regards to that Old Covenant .. how God was actually looking towards, and, leading up to this New Covenant that He intends to make with His people in it's place) 

Your whole argument for this interpretation is founded on something best not built upon .. in effect you are saying to the Jews, "hey it's all okay, just keep that Old Covenant to the letter and God will protect you, it doesn't matter that the very act of keeping that covenant is a direct slap in Christ's Face and of His sacrifice, because look, God is going to measure you and keep you safe" !!

Sorry, but it is wrong.

Ezekiel 13:10 Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:

 

  

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2015 by Serving

[mevosper]

Serving says: Again, God ended that Old Covenant and instated a New Covenant for His people to abide in, you do realise this right?

Correct. God ended the Old Covenant, the old ways which were represented by the tabernacle/temples and the levitical priesthood. These temples and practices were not necessary after the death and resurrection of Christ. These temples and priesthood practices represent the law the jews were to carry out. These "shadows" of the real were destroyed in 70AD.  

 

Serving: God is not interested in protecting those who have rejected His Son and cling to the Old Law instead .. to suggest God is going to protect this "Temple" and those following it's laws goes against the whole reason WHY Christ died on the cross

Either i'm not being clear, or your are misunderstanding my interpretation. We actually agree on this point.  

 

It's obvious we need to understand Rev 11:1-2 before we can even attempt to understand v 3-8. What is being measured is the way the Jews upheld the law that was given to them from Moses. Specifically the priesthood since they were given the keys to the knowledge of God. Correct? 

When i posted the link to the definition of measure, I was expecting you to see that the word "measure" in this context means to be measured against a law to determine if one meets the criteria of the law. 

Serving: ..but the only door is through Christ's door,

Correct. I'm assuming by "Christ's door" you are saying that Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. There is no other way. The new covenant, new wine, etc

Serving: obviously for worshippers to be measured and protected,

Q: Why do you say protected?  Q: Why do you say they are accepted? Do you say "accepted" because they are measured? Measured does not equal accepted. If one "measures up" they may be accepted, but that is not a given. 

Mesover,

Thanks for the link but I already understand what measure means".

Rev 11:1 KJV

And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

 

What is being measured? The Temple

Who was the temple given to? The Jews

Who is being measured? Only those that can minister unto the temple.

 

Whenever there is a measuring of temple or people in the word of God, it needs to be understood that something is being measured, or judged, against a standard. When a carpenter measures a piece of wood, he takes out his ruler, his standard of measurement, and determines the exact length in which to cut. His rule, or his article of judgement or “law”, is used to determine the rightful length of the piece of wood. If the “law” determines the wood to be too long, the carpenter cuts off the extra. The wood did not meet the standard. If it is too short, he casts it aside for another piece of wood.

 

The measuring of the temple of God, the altar (the place of sacrifices), and them that worship therein pertains to the Israelites. The articles of judgement, or law was given to them. The law enumerated the ministering of the temple and the ministering to God. In a sense, they were given the keys to the knowledge and wisdom of God. This same law was used to judge those that were required to follow the law, therefore they would be judged by the law. The idea of measuring something in the bible refers to the act of grading or judging against a known law or rule. God’s law, given to the Israelites and their ministering of the temple, is the reed. (Matt 7:2).

I suggest reading Hebrews (as just one example) a couple of times, for it would disagree with this interpretation too.

Can you show me where this does not agree with Hebrews?  

 

 

[Serving]

Mevosper,

Serving says: Again, God ended that Old Covenant and instated a New Covenant for His people to abide in, you do realise this right?

Correct. God ended the Old Covenant, the old ways which were represented by the tabernacle/temples and the levitical priesthood. These temples and practices were not necessary after the death and resurrection of Christ. These temples and priesthood practices represent the law the jews were to carry out. These "shadows" of the real were destroyed in 70AD. 

 

Serving: God is not interested in protecting those who have rejected His Son and cling to the Old Law instead .. to suggest God is going to protect this "Temple" and those following it's laws goes against the whole reason WHY Christ died on the cross

Either i'm not being clear, or your are misunderstanding my interpretation. We actually agree on this point.

 

It's obvious we need to understand Rev 11:1-2 before we can even attempt to understand v 3-8. What is being measured is the way the Jews upheld the law that was given to them from Moses. Specifically the priesthood since they were given the keys to the knowledge of God. Correct?

When i posted the link to the definition of measure, I was expecting you to see that the word "measure" in this context means to be measured against a law to determine if one meets the criteria of the law.

Serving: ..but the only door is through Christ's door,

Correct. I'm assuming by "Christ's door" you are saying that Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. There is no other way. The new covenant, new wine, etc

Serving: obviously for worshippers to be measured and protected,

Q: Why do you say protected?  Q: Why do you say they are accepted? Do you say "accepted" because they are measured? Measured does not equal accepted. If one "measures up" they may be accepted, but that is not a given.

Mesover,

Thanks for the link but I already understand what measure means".

Rev 11:1 KJV

And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

 

What is being measured? The Temple

Who was the temple given to? The Jews

Who is being measured? Only those that can minister unto the temple.

 

Whenever there is a measuring of temple or people in the word of God, it needs to be understood that something is being measured, or judged, against a standard. When a carpenter measures a piece of wood, he takes out his ruler, his standard of measurement, and determines the exact length in which to cut. His rule, or his article of judgement or “law”, is used to determine the rightful length of the piece of wood. If the “law” determines the wood to be too long, the carpenter cuts off the extra. The wood did not meet the standard. If it is too short, he casts it aside for another piece of wood.

 

The measuring of the temple of God, the altar (the place of sacrifices), and them that worship therein pertains to the Israelites. The articles of judgement, or law was given to them. The law enumerated the ministering of the temple and the ministering to God. In a sense, they were given the keys to the knowledge and wisdom of God. This same law was used to judge those that were required to follow the law, therefore they would be judged by the law. The idea of measuring something in the bible refers to the act of grading or judging against a known law or rule. God’s law, given to the Israelites and their ministering of the temple, is the reed. (Matt 7:2).

I suggest reading Hebrews (as just one example) a couple of times, for it would disagree with this interpretation too.

Can you show me where this does not agree with Hebrews? 

 

 

 

Hi bro ..

You asked :

Q: Why do you say protected?  Q: Why do you say they are accepted? Do you say "accepted" because they are measured? Measured does not equal accepted. If one "measures up" they may be accepted, but that is not a given.

Brother, God did say (1) MEASURE the Temple and (2) the altar and (3) those that worship therein .. BUT .. the court which is without the temple LEAVE OUT and measure NOT .. for IT (those outside the temple BUT on temple grounds .. other words, profess to be Christian) will be TRAMPLED .. therefore, the ones being measured are NOT being trampled, and since they are not being trampled and are not given into the hands of those trampling, then, by default, they are being kept SAFE from his trampling .. and since they are being kept safe, then they must needs be being protected .. and if they are protected, then they likewise MUST be accepted by God, and since they are both protected and accepted by God, then this is why He is "measuring them" .. so the building Christ is building knits firmly together into one Temple as it were .. finely measured to perfection as it were.

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Now remember in Hebrews how it is written that WE can now go straight to Christ which is exactly the same as going directly before the ALTAR without need of a human priest doing so on OUR BEHALF?

And the Temple Christ is building .. that is THIS Temple we are discussing .. though there is a duality with the 3rd physical Temple that is coming, but I don't want to harp on it yet in case I confuse the matter at hand ..

This is one reason I meant by "contradicting Hebrews" .. I didn't mean any insult either bro, I was just being blunt and should have made myself clearer .. sorry bout that.

Anyway ..this is WHY God mentioned the ALTAR .. WE can go STRAIGHT TO IT and worship before Him DIRECTLY ourselves without need of a human priest doing it for us, and to say it was referring to the Judaic worship was contradicting THAT understanding is what I meant.

Another reason / thing that I saw as a contradiction, was how the Judaic system of worship is NOW spiritually desolate because ONLY Christ's doctrine is ACCEPTABLE before God .. therefore, how could an unacceptable method of worship be PROTECTED by God? Remembering that THAT "Temple" is KEPT from being TRAMPLED .. therefore it is protected / measured / accepted by God which by default means that IT can not be the Judaic method being expressed which means it can not be the Judaic "Temple" / religion being KEPT SAFE from that trampling.

Because God said that Old Covenant / doctrine was NOW desolate SINCE Christ's doctrine came into force .. and IF God calls something DESOLATE, then it is MARKED for DEATH and DECAY and not preservation like the "Temple" we are discussing right now.

Has this helped Mevosper?

 

 

 

 

[mevosper]

Serving - I think I see where you are coming from, brother. It seems like you are assuming this city is the New Jerusalem. Am I correct in this assumption? If that is the case, this is a bad assumption. Later in verse 8, John also calls this city Sodom and Egypt. I don't believe New Jerusalem will be referred to as Sodom or Egypt. Besides, in Rev 21, there is no temple. 

But, you may also be thinking this is a future Jerusalem in the "millennium" from which is said, Christ will reign. But then it wouldn't be considered Sodom or Egypt in that case. And there probably won't be a temple there during that time either.

I guess it could be the Jerusalem that will be around when the antichrist desecrates the temple. Christians would be allowed in the temple area in that case, maybe. But Jews will be offering sacrifices there - which makes it rather difficult for Christians (who the Jews continue to view as Gentiles) to access the altar. My guess is that Christians will not be allowed in the inner court where they (Jews) are performing holy sacrifices on the altar during this time.

I don't know of another Jerusalem in which Christians will be able to access a physical altar. I'm sure I'm missing something.

If we view this temple in Rev 11 as a representation of the OT temple/priesthood/law, things fit together much better. We can see how in OT times that Gentiles were not held to the same standards as the Jews. The Gentiles, who trampled on the outside were not measured with the same measuring stick/reed/law as those that worshiped in the temple area (the Jews).  

Here's another view I like to use. The temple is a special place carved out specifically for God to "reside" with his people. This was his temple. He gave them the information necessary to build a place in which he could reside with them. Because of His holiness, there were special requirements of this structure that needed to be met and maintained. This gift of his presence was given to the Jews, not anyone else. Because it was given to the Jews, and because they were also enlightened with knowledge from God as part of this gift, they were also responsible for the obedience required for that gift and measured by the law of that gift. 

I hope this makes sense.