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Jesus returns twice in Matthew?


firestormx

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This topic will be discussing Matthew chapters 24-25. But the following verses specifically. Please feel free to use the entire 2 chapters or any other book and chapter of the bible on the return of Jesus to express your point of view.

 

 

Matthew 24: 30-31

 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25 : 31-32

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

 

Above are the verses I have questions about. I would like to know how everyone understands these verses in context to Matthew 24-25 as a whole. For both chapters are talking about the end times. It is one long disclosure by Jesus on the end times, and in this long disclosure he mentions his return twice in very interesting detail.

 

1. Do these verses say Jesus returns twice?

2. Why does the 1st verse above say he returns to gather his elect, while the 2nd verse talks about gathering all nations to him?

3. Why do the verses around the first verse above refer to Jesus only as the son of man, while the verses around the 2nd verses above refer to Jesus as King?

4. Doesn't the gathering of his elect and the gathering of all nations to Jesus first happen at 2 different times?

5. Are these verses talking about a single return of Jesus or 2 different returns of Jesus?

6. Isn't the comment about separating the sheep from the goats a reference to the final judgement in revelation, while the first return to gather his elect more in line with the rapture?

7. Are they both the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth by Jesus or is only the 2nd set of verses above talking about the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth by Jesus and the first set of verses above talking about the rapture? 

 

I look forward to reading everyone's thoughts on this. May God bless you all

Firestormx

 

 

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Guest shiloh357

Both passages refer to the same event, the second coming.  Keep in mind that chapters 24 and 25 are all one conversation, on speech. He is talking about the various aspects and various things that will happen at his coming and just after it. 

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Both passages refer to the same event, the second coming.  Keep in mind that chapters 24 and 25 are all one conversation, on speech. He is talking about the various aspects and various things that will happen at his coming and just after it. 

Why do you say he is talking about his 2nd coming and not the rapture? Do you believe they are one and the same event?

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Matthew 24: 30-31

 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

Matthew 25 : 31-32

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

If you will note the sequence, the first passage speaks of the Second Coming (bolded) whereas the second passage speaks of the actual setting up of Christ's Kingdom on earth following that event (also bolded).

1. Do these verses say Jesus returns twice?

No

2. Why does the 1st verse above say he returns to gather his elect, while the 2nd verse talks about gathering all nations to him?

The "elect" refers to the believing Jewish remnant from all over the world which will be gathered to Israel before the Millennial Kingdom is set up. Please refer to the OT prophecies.

3. Why do the verses around the first verse above refer to Jesus only as the son of man, while the verses around the 2nd verses above refer to Jesus as King?

"Son of Man" goes back to the book of Daniel and the prophecy which shows Him coming in the clouds (Dan 7:13,14), and really means "Son of God" (who took the form of Man).  After Christ establishes His literal, physical Kingdom on earth, He is thereafter King of the whole earth.

4. Doesn't the gathering of his elect and the gathering of all nations to Jesus first happen at 2 different times?

No

5. Are these verses talking about a single return of Jesus or 2 different returns of Jesus?

Already answered.

6. Isn't the comment about separating the sheep from the goats a reference to the final judgement in revelation, while the first return to gather his elect more in line with the rapture?

The rapture is not in view at all, neither is this the final judgement as shown in Rev 20.

7. Are they both the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth by Jesus or is only the 2nd set of verses above talking about the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth by Jesus and the first set of verses above talking about the rapture?

The rapture is not in view at all. The narrative is continuous in both chapters. First we have Christ coming with power and great glory (unlike His first coming in humiliation) and then we have the setting up of His Kingdom.  The rapture has already occurred before the setting up of the Abomination of Desolation.

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Guest shiloh357

Jesus is answering the disciples' questions about his coming.   Chapters 24 and 25 are one line thought.   Note that it happens after he tribulation in ch. 24.   Why would there be a rapture after the tribulation?  The rapture happened before the Tribulation.

 

Jesus' answer concerning the second coming covers two chapters.

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I look forward to reading everyone's thoughts on this. May God bless you all

 

 

Me too... ;)

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Thanks to everyone for the comments. I guess I just don't understand the position of both verses being about the 2nd coming. It just doesn't make any sense to me. If we are raptured before the Matt. 24 verses, the Jews and any and all who were saved during the 70th week were gathered to Jesus in the Matt. 24:30-31, then what is the point of gathering the nations to separate sheep from goats? Think about it, We are with Jesus. The Jews and tribulation saints were all ready gathered to Jesus when Jesus was coming down and he sent his angels to gather his elect to himself. So who is left to separate? Nobody else will live again until Rev. 20. Jesus sits down on his throne, the nations gather before him so he can separate sheep from goats. Who are the Sheep? We are always with the Lord since the rapture. The Jews and the tribulation saints were gathered by the angels in Matt. 24:30-31. So who is left to separate? It just makes no sense to me.

 

 The only thing that makes sense to me is this. After the AoD the 6th seal and/or 4th trumpet event takes place sometime at the beginning of the final 3 1/2 years, after the 6th seal event as spoken of in Matt. 24  we come to verses 30-31 which is the rapture. Then the parables Jesus tells next makes a lot more sense as well. For, Matthew 24-25 is the end times from the churches point of view. Then when we come to Matt. 25:31-32, we have the 2nd coming where Jesus is separating the Jews and the people who believed there report and come to faith in Jesus during the tribulation from everyone else and setting up his Kingdom on earth.

 

I just don't understand how both can be talking about the 2nd coming. Everyone has been separated already by the rapture and Jesus gathering everyone to himself. I just don't understand, but I thank everyone for sharing there point of view.

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Hi firestormx,

 

I believe that Jesus will come on the day of the Lord (one 24 hour day) and gather His elect (the believers in Christ) when the 7th trumpet sounds.  The 7th vial will then be poured out and the wicked will be gathered to be slaughtered in the Valley of Jehoshaphat; concurrent with the Battle of Armageddon.  This is the second coming of Christ.  The following verses all show the same event.

 

 

Joel 3:11.  Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O Lord.
 12.  Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
 13.  Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
 14.  Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.

 15.  The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

 

 

Revelation 14:14.  And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
 15.  And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
 16.  And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
 17.  And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
 18.  And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
 19.  And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
 20.  And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

 

 

Matthew 24:29.  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
 30.  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
 31.  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

 

Revelation 16:15.  Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
 16.  And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
 17.  And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

 

 

Revelation 6:14.  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
 15.  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
 16.  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
 17.  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

 

Matthew 13:30.  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

 

 

Matthew 25:31. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32. And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

 

 

Jeff
 

Edited by Watching for Jesus
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1. Do these verses say Jesus returns twice?

 

Yes, that's what it looks like to me.

 

2. Why does the 1st verse above say he returns to gather his elect, while the 2nd verse talks about gathering all nations to him?

 

 

Because the 1st and 2nd verses are probably talking about two different events?

 

 

3. Why do the verses around the first verse above refer to Jesus only as the son of man, while the verses around the 2nd verses above refer to Jesus as King?

 

 

Maybe with the 1st verse He's only coming to gather His elect, the 2nd verse He comes back to "sit upon the throne of his glory" to judge "all nations". "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended."

 

 

4. Doesn't the gathering of his elect and the gathering of all nations to Jesus first happen at 2 different times?

 

 

It sure does sound like it to me.

 

 

5. Are these verses talking about a single return of Jesus or 2 different returns of Jesus?

 
 
Two different trips, probably separated by the 1000 years of Rev.20.
 

 

 

6. Isn't the comment about separating the sheep from the goats a reference to the final judgment in revelation, while the first return to gather his elect more in line with the rapture?

 

 

It sure does sound like it to me.

 

 

 

7. Are they both the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth by Jesus or is only the 2nd set of verses above talking about the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth by Jesus and the first set of verses above talking about the rapture? 

 
2nd set talks about the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth by Jesus, first set of verses speak to the rapture.
 
Good job on noticing this, I look forward to reading everyone's thoughts on this too. This looks like an important piece of the puzzle in solving a proper chronology of the end time events. The problem is that this particular puzzle piece can tend to conflict with a couple of different theologies that I can think of. So I'll take care not to say anything that will cause upset as this might require an adjustment to ones prophetic paradigm.
 
This is the second time that a person at Worthy noticed something in Matthew that I would describe as big. The other person said Matthew 24 was in the evening on the mount of Olives but Luke 21 was in the morning in the Temple. Matthew 24/25 is the true Olivet Discourse written in the architecture of an apocalyptic prophecy. In Luke 21, that chronology is broken at verse 12: "but before all this".
 
Handshakes for you Firestormx

 

Edited by Dave Watchman
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Good job on noticing this, I look forward to reading everyone's thoughts on this too. This looks like an important piece of the puzzle in solving a proper chronology of the end time events. The problem is that this particular puzzle piece can tend to conflict with a couple of different theologies that I can think of. So I'll take care not to say anything that will cause upset as this might require an adjustment to ones prophetic paradigm.

 

This is the second time that a person at Worthy noticed something in Matthew that I would describe as big. The other person said Matthew 24 was in the evening on the mount of Olives but Luke 21 was in the morning in the Temple. Matthew 24/25 is the true Olivet Discourse written in the architecture of an apocalyptic prophecy. In Luke 21, that chronology is broken at verse 12: "but before all this".

 

Handshakes for you Firestormx

Thank you for the encouragement, may God bless you

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